Riding train vs flying ... some questions

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But completely getting rid of security inspection before boarding aircrafts in today's world is not an option either and has not been for decades predating the TSA. What needs to happen is that the more egregious behaviors of some TSA agents needs to be curtailed and a more transparent mechanism for remediation of the same needs to be put in place. But completely getting rid of gate security in commercial aviation is something that only people who are grossly unconnected with reality contemplate seriously.
Talk about setting up and admirably knocking down strawmen... ... ...

The original subthread was about whether the existence of TSA is sufficient reason to shun air travel in general, and the fact remains that it is not, no matter how much a tiny vocal group rant and rave on and on.
And as I pointed out, it's not sufficient reason in YOUR OPINION. Unfortunately for you, your opinion is not the only one in the world whose counts.

And yes, there are a bunch of us out here in whose opinion, the TSA IS sufficient reason to shun air travel in general. Obviously we're not alone - look at Amtraks ridership the last 3 years, and the Airline's - which way is whose going? And yes, if you'd had our experiences, YOU would be right here ranting with us I'm sure. And those of us who ARE avoiding the train primarily based on the TSA are a significant number relative to the long-distance train seats available, and we ARE taking roomettes and bedrooms, and we ARE driving up buckets and selling out trains for the rest of you head in the sanders.
 
For you (a seasoned traveler, with no special needs), that's certainly an accurate statement. But that's a decision that everyone needs to make for themselves. I'd suspect that the decision could come out differently for folks with less experience trying to haul a large family though a TSA show.
Or people with medical issues who, due to the inanity of this and ONLY THIS country's baffling continuing on the War on Shoes , are not able to avail themselves of the techological miracle that lets you get through security only being virtually "inspected"...

But hey, I have no problems, so the people who do have problems, must be their fault...
 
For some serious analysis of what is theatre and what might actually help security please see Bruce Schneier blog -- - no I've no connection therewith whatsoever - it's just the best analysis of risks I've seen - neither he nor me is selling anything .
Heck, just go to Flyertalk's Travel Safety/Security subforums. You'll find plenty of people who do not have "Railfans Disease" who absolutely DETEST the current production of Security Theater.
 
For some serious analysis of what is theatre and what might actually help security please see Bruce Schneier blog -- - no I've no connection therewith whatsoever - it's just the best analysis of risks I've seen - neither he nor me is selling anything .
Do you have a URL for said Blog. I am interested in actually reading what he has to say. It would be really nice if there were any reasonable less intrusive method to achieve the same end.
Schneier is a serious computer security expert, author of some yet-unbroken cryptography, and commentator on what might work and what isn't working in the security realm. His blog is at bruce schneier blog where he also links to many other good and bad sources on security, computer and otherwise.

In my personal view, he's one of the best analysts and commentators out there on what may work, what doesn't and why not, and what processes may help.

Actually he is selling something - his books - but you don't have to buy em for the blog and the links. And his more serious books most of us won't understand - not without a real solid background in statistics and elliptic functionals.

And yeah - he's mostly negative on the worth of the TSA nonsense - and positive on some other agencies screening. And mostly libertarian - o just check it out - he seems like a reasonable person, and very well qualified - to me.

When I reported aboard a US aircraft carrier for a Tiger Cruise last month - they had dogs sniffing my bags, the did a reasonable search - they didn't seem worried about toothpaste or shoes -- but I have no idea what the sniffing was for- anyhow -- for them a 3 inch knife is a "tool" not a weapon. What they sniffed or xrayed I don't know - but I expect it was a much more reasonable and effective search than what the airlines do - took about the same time. What the cost was, don't know.

I just have this idea that the Navy has a better idea of what to screen for than what the TSA does.

[Edit] - AND -- This is getting off-topic for Amtrak
 
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But hey, I have no problems, so the people who do have problems, must be their fault...
Again that is your statement, I have not said that. I have acknowledged all along that there are some with legitimate grievances, and I accept that those should be addressed. But the point is it is nowhere near the majority or even a plurality that fall into that category, and that is just the statement of a fact.
 
For some serious analysis of what is theatre and what might actually help security please see Bruce Schneier blog -- - no I've no connection therewith whatsoever - it's just the best analysis of risks I've seen - neither he nor me is selling anything .
Heck, just go to Flyertalk's Travel Safety/Security subforums. You'll find plenty of people who do not have "Railfans Disease" who absolutely DETEST the current production of Security Theater.
That is true, but they still fly. The point is that there are many things that we don't like but in the overall scheme of things partake in anyway. Could things be improved? Absolutely. There is no disagreement there.
 
For some serious analysis of what is theatre and what might actually help security please see Bruce Schneier blog -- - no I've no connection therewith whatsoever - it's just the best analysis of risks I've seen - neither he nor me is selling anything .
Do you have a URL for said Blog. I am interested in actually reading what he has to say. It would be really nice if there were any reasonable less intrusive method to achieve the same end.
Schneier is a serious computer security expert, author of some yet-unbroken cryptography, and commentator on what might work and what isn't working in the security realm. His blog is at bruce schneier blog where he also links to many other good and bad sources on security, computer and otherwise.

In my person view, he's one of the best analysts and commentators out there on what may work, what doesn't, and what processes may help.
I know Schneier. I spent about a decade in the past working on Computer Security and Threat Assessment Standards. That is why I asked for the URL. Thanks.
 
That is true, but they still fly. The point is that there are many things that we don't like but in the overall scheme of things partake in anyway. Could things be improved? Absolutely. There is no disagreement there.
Some do still fly, some don't.
 
That is true, but they still fly. The point is that there are many things that we don't like but in the overall scheme of things partake in anyway. Could things be improved? Absolutely. There is no disagreement there.
Some do still fly, some don't.
Most do still fly, some don't. I wish we could make more and quicker progress towards getting the theater aspect out of the legitimate imperative of providing security for flights so that it ceases to be an impediment for those that are deterred from flying just due to the theater aspect of security that exists today. But IMHO that is best achieved by being analytical about it and pointing out to the powers that be what needs to change rather than being hysterical about it. The latter approach cause one to lose credibility as a serious contributor to the discussion and progress towards acceptable solutions.
 
Support foreign airlines dont fly the garbage service we call American airlines industry.
Foreign airlines do not fly domestic service in the US. They are not allowed to.

US airlines, while not comparable with the topmost foreign airlines, are not hopelessly bad in their international service. Many are actually quite acceptable IMHO.

OTOH, you gotta try Ryanair before singing the praises of all foreign airlines. :) And yet it is a phenomenally successful and popular airline though everyone incessantly complains about it.
 
So to summarize, on the incredibly remote chance that the OP is still reading this thread:

You should definitely drive from your home to San Antonio, take the train to El Paso, then fly

to Phoenix. That way you'll get to experience the benefits and pitfalls of each mode of travel.

Hope we cleared that up for you! :rolleyes:
 
Schneier is a serious computer security expert, author of some yet-unbroken cryptography, and commentator on what might work and what isn't working in the security realm. His blog is at bruce schneier blog where he also links to many other good and bad sources on security, computer and otherwise.

In my personal view, he's one of the best analysts and commentators out there on what may work, what doesn't and why not, and what processes may help.
Thanks for sharing, some interesting stuff posted there.
 
Schneier is a serious computer security expert, author of some yet-unbroken cryptography, and commentator on what might work and what isn't working in the security realm. His blog is at bruce schneier blog where he also links to many other good and bad sources on security, computer and otherwise.

In my personal view, he's one of the best analysts and commentators out there on what may work, what doesn't and why not, and what processes may help.
Thanks for sharing, some interesting stuff posted there.
Cryptogram is always very good and informative in my experience.
 
Most do still fly, some don't. I wish we could make more and quicker progress towards getting the theater aspect out of the legitimate imperative of providing security for flights so that it ceases to be an impediment for those that are deterred from flying just due to the theater aspect of security that exists today. But IMHO that is best achieved by being analytical about it and pointing out to the powers that be what needs to change rather than being hysterical about it. The latter approach cause one to lose credibility as a serious contributor to the discussion and progress towards acceptable solutions.
It's a lot more than the fact that it's "Just Theater", as you put it. I played my small role in their interminable production for a number of years, but the change they made to the patdown procedures 2 years ago to "Encourage Compliance" with the roll-out of the scanners was the last straw for me - I'd been through one of those patdowns before and have zero interest in repeating the experience. None.

If it was just theater, that's one thing. When it gets to be to the level it is now, it's not "Just" theater, it's just plain wrong. And if you had to go through that pat-down every time I'm sure you'd agree.

Now, if you agree with Schneier, then we're probably very close on what we'd like to see in terms of airport security.

Personally, I'd like to see the following:

1) A return to 9/10/11 security at the checkpoint: With the change in "In the air" policies of hardened cockpit doors, armed flight crews and no longer cooperating with hijacker demands, another 9/11 style hijacking is next to impossible. The box-cutters the terrorists brought on board were actually permitted items on 9/10/11, and if you really feel SOMETHING MUST be done then I guess the ban on those and small knives can stay. But the fact of the matter is nobody's taking a plane with a small blade any more.

2) Return airport security to the private sector/airports/airlines, with the TSA relegated to an oversight/inspection agency: The FDA doesn't manufacture food, the NTSB doesn't drive trucks, there's no reason the TSA should be on the front line doing the job. This will remove the "Quasi-Federal-Agent" status of the inspectors, and ensure better quality through the public sector. Airports could either enter into competitive bid process with existing agencies, or do it themselves, just like they used to.

3) End of the shoe/liquid/electronics carnival: No other country on this dadgum planet is still requiring shoes to be removed, and most if not all have removed the liquid restrictions, and yet somehow airliners are not falling out of the skies on a daily basis. These restrictions are over-reactions that were enacted knee-jerk-style like everything else, and should find their way to the dustbin of history.

4) A strict focus on WEI (Weapons/Explosives/Incindenaries): No more fishing expeditions rifling through papers looking for "Divorce situations", no more questioning why someone is carrying so much cash, no more fishing expeditions. If it's a) Not WEI and b) Not an exigent violent crime, then get a warrant like the constitution says. No using administrative searches as backdoor dragnets.

5) Return the HHMD and LIMITED patdown to that area to resolve alarms from the WTMD, and repurpose the scanners to secondary resolution only: That was the original stated purpose of the scanners, and that's where they should be sent.

6) A focus on developing technologies that detect explosives remotely, as hard objects are no longer as much of a threat (see #1 above): This would return the focus on the real threat - explosives. They had walk-through puffers that worked well, but were difficult to maintain, and their manufacturer wasn't a former head of the DHS like the scanner makers are. So they got warehoused. Iron out the kinks and use them.
 
Most do still fly, some don't. I wish we could make more and quicker progress towards getting the theater aspect out of the legitimate imperative of providing security for flights so that it ceases to be an impediment for those that are deterred from flying just due to the theater aspect of security that exists today. But IMHO that is best achieved by being analytical about it and pointing out to the powers that be what needs to change rather than being hysterical about it. The latter approach cause one to lose credibility as a serious contributor to the discussion and progress towards acceptable solutions.
It's a lot more than the fact that it's "Just Theater", as you put it. I played my small role in their interminable production for a number of years, but the change they made to the patdown procedures 2 years ago to "Encourage Compliance" with the roll-out of the scanners was the last straw for me - I'd been through one of those patdowns before and have zero interest in repeating the experience. None.

If it was just theater, that's one thing. When it gets to be to the level it is now, it's not "Just" theater, it's just plain wrong. And if you had to go through that pat-down every time I'm sure you'd agree.

Now, if you agree with Schneier, then we're probably very close on what we'd like to see in terms of airport security.

Personally, I'd like to see the following:

1) A return to 9/10/11 security at the checkpoint: With the change in "In the air" policies of hardened cockpit doors, armed flight crews and no longer cooperating with hijacker demands, another 9/11 style hijacking is next to impossible. The box-cutters the terrorists brought on board were actually permitted items on 9/10/11, and if you really feel SOMETHING MUST be done then I guess the ban on those and small knives can stay. But the fact of the matter is nobody's taking a plane with a small blade any more.

2) Return airport security to the private sector/airports/airlines, with the TSA relegated to an oversight/inspection agency: The FDA doesn't manufacture food, the NTSB doesn't drive trucks, there's no reason the TSA should be on the front line doing the job. This will remove the "Quasi-Federal-Agent" status of the inspectors, and ensure better quality through the public sector. Airports could either enter into competitive bid process with existing agencies, or do it themselves, just like they used to.

3) End of the shoe/liquid/electronics carnival: No other country on this dadgum planet is still requiring shoes to be removed, and most if not all have removed the liquid restrictions, and yet somehow airliners are not falling out of the skies on a daily basis. These restrictions are over-reactions that were enacted knee-jerk-style like everything else, and should find their way to the dustbin of history.

4) A strict focus on WEI (Weapons/Explosives/Incindenaries): No more fishing expeditions rifling through papers looking for "Divorce situations", no more questioning why someone is carrying so much cash, no more fishing expeditions. If it's a) Not WEI and b) Not an exigent violent crime, then get a warrant like the constitution says. No using administrative searches as backdoor dragnets.

5) Return the HHMD and LIMITED patdown to that area to resolve alarms from the WTMD, and repurpose the scanners to secondary resolution only: That was the original stated purpose of the scanners, and that's where they should be sent.

6) A focus on developing technologies that detect explosives remotely, as hard objects are no longer as much of a threat (see #1 above): This would return the focus on the real threat - explosives. They had walk-through puffers that worked well, but were difficult to maintain, and their manufacturer wasn't a former head of the DHS like the scanner makers are. So they got warehoused. Iron out the kinks and use them.
Do you mean 9/10/01 ?
 
Most do still fly, some don't. I wish we could make more and quicker progress towards getting the theater aspect out of the legitimate imperative of providing security for flights so that it ceases to be an impediment for those that are deterred from flying just due to the theater aspect of security that exists today. But IMHO that is best achieved by being analytical about it and pointing out to the powers that be what needs to change rather than being hysterical about it. The latter approach cause one to lose credibility as a serious contributor to the discussion and progress towards acceptable solutions.
While I understand that point of view, I don't really think it's correct. What has "being analytical and pointing out to the powers that be" done to get improvements from the security-theater apparatus from 2000 onwards? Absolutely nothing; they aren't listening. They haven't listened to any of the quiet, credible, analytical experts from 2000 to the present, at least.

Perhaps being hysterical will get some attention; it seems like it's the only way to get things done when you have a *truly* unresponsive and ignorant bureaucracy.

Heck, the only way Amtrak got the TSA to behave itself in train stations was to ban them from all Amtrak property.
 
There are times that flying absolutely beats the heck out of the train.

That being said, the TSA can die in a fire. And as long as they're at the airport, I'm on the train.

And I'm not alone.
At this point, I have sworn to fly only under three circumstances:

(1) From a non-US airport to a non-US airport

(2) On a private plane

(3) If absolutely forced to for business

This is due to the TSA.

I actually like flying by itself, but I can't tolerate the demeaning spectacle which commercial flights have become.
 
There are times that flying absolutely beats the heck out of the train.

That being said, the TSA can die in a fire. And as long as they're at the airport, I'm on the train.

And I'm not alone.
At this point, I have sworn to fly only under three circumstances:

(1) From a non-US airport to a non-US airport
Avoid the likes of India then. You are guaranteed a free personal massage at each security checkpoint, twice if you are boarding a flight to the US. This is true of several other countries. US is relatively benign compared to some. :)

(2) On a private plane
That might work, though in some countries it will depend on who you know, and whose good books you are in :)

(3) If absolutely forced to for business
Fair enough

This is due to the TSA.

I actually like flying by itself, but I can't tolerate the demeaning spectacle which commercial flights have become.
I can see your POV, though I personally do not feel as strongly about it.

Most do still fly, some don't. I wish we could make more and quicker progress towards getting the theater aspect out of the legitimate imperative of providing security for flights so that it ceases to be an impediment for those that are deterred from flying just due to the theater aspect of security that exists today. But IMHO that is best achieved by being analytical about it and pointing out to the powers that be what needs to change rather than being hysterical about it. The latter approach cause one to lose credibility as a serious contributor to the discussion and progress towards acceptable solutions.
While I understand that point of view, I don't really think it's correct. What has "being analytical and pointing out to the powers that be" done to get improvements from the security-theater apparatus from 2000 onwards? Absolutely nothing; they aren't listening. They haven't listened to any of the quiet, credible, analytical experts from 2000 to the present, at least.

Perhaps being hysterical will get some attention; it seems like it's the only way to get things done when you have a *truly* unresponsive and ignorant bureaucracy.

Heck, the only way Amtrak got the TSA to behave itself in train stations was to ban them from all Amtrak property.
You may have a point there, though I have found that if one can locate a sympathetic ear in position of political power, it sometimes works to actually show them why something that is being pushed does not work. But, yeah, unfortunately it can be a crapshoot. You may have to find some completely unrelated political angle to have them actually act on anything. If merely being hysterical was any better guarantee at getting anything all street demonstrations of medium to large size would have led to changes they asked for, but typically that does not work either.

Ideally getting a bureaucracy's budget slashed has an exemplary effect on them too. :)
 
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They haven't listened to any of the quiet, credible, analytical experts from 2000 to the present, at least.
Sure they have. If they're a former head of the DHS and now work for a company with a gadget to sell.
 
Ideally getting a bureaucracy's budget slashed has an exemplary effect on them too. :)
This is where the "Not Flying" angle really is putting our "Money where our mouth is" when it comes to the issue.

The airlines are trying to run a business. If the surly folks out front get so bad that people stop going through them to get to the goodies, then the people trying to sell the goodies are more likely to do something about the surly folks out front.

And the people with the goodies have a hell of a lot more lobbying power than the average Joe.

Now, whether the airlines ever cotton on to the fact that people are not using their product BECAUSE of the TSA, and it's hurting their bottom line, well it'll probably have to reach a tipping point where the lost business is more than what they're saving by having the TSA assume all liability for "Security". And that CBA is bound to be colored by the fact that they can continue to pin "Low overall traveler numbers" on the "economy", and not TSA.

But last I checked, AMTRAK is not exactly "the hound" when it comes to fares... and their ridership is expanding, near capacity on many routes... at the same time that the airlines are slashing flights - still traveling with high load factors, but way less overall passengers, despite a faster and often cheaper trip.

I wonder why that is? Well, for one, I paid $800 one way for a bedroom on the Crescent last-minute (in FEBRUARY, mind you) and took 28 hours to travel north to my Grandfather's funeral, rather than $369 one way on Southwest to be there in 3 hours. Why? The TSA.

So when the economy DOES turn around, and they won't have that old canard to hide behind? Who knows.

Yes, I'm sure Southwest will not miss my $369. But acquiescing does nothing to change the system. If enough people vote with their feet, there WILL be change.

P.S. --> Why did I pay $800 for a bedroom instead of getting a roomette? Because the roomettes were sold out. On a Wednesday. In mid-February. The room was literally the last room on the train.
 
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