Viewliner Order in Jeopardy?

[VentureForth]

Just a snippet from Friday's TWAA:

Remember the heartburn and ultimate heartache that went into the design and manufacture and subsequent legal battle over the Acela trainsets Amtrak uses on the Northeast Corridor? It’s back, in a 21st Century setting.
CAF-USA, an American fully owned subsidiary of Construcciones y Auxiliar de Ferrocarriles of Spain – a worldwide know manufacturer of passenger rail cars of all types – which is building nearly $300 million worth of new Viewliner-type cars for Amtrak in the form of sleepers, diners, and baggage cars has reportedly received a “stop work” letter from Amtrak.

Information provided to The Business and Politics of Passenger Rail indicates CAF-USA was sent a stop work letter on Friday, April 6, 2012. One of the reasons indicated was CAF-USA is far behind meeting an agreed upon production schedule.

CAF-USA has performed – and completed – other work in the United States for regional and local transit agencies such as the City of Pittsburgh, and is currently working on a contract for the Houston, Texas transit system. CAF-USA performs work at it’s facility in Elmira Heights, New York. CAF-USA has actively bid on other work in the United States, too, such as for New Jersey Transit.

Now TWAA goes on and on about the woes of foreign controlled manufacturers of rail cars. But my main question here is what are the ramifications of the Viewliner order? We gonna see them in 2014 or not at all?

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

One of the reasons indicated was CAF-USA is far behind meeting an agreed upon production schedule.

So, Amtrak feels it is better to never get the new Viewliner II order, than to get it late?

I mean, even if this is just a negotiation tactic, stopping all work on a project that is already running late, isn't going to help the schedule.

 

[jis]

One of the reasons indicated was CAF-USA is far behind meeting an agreed upon production schedule.

So, Amtrak feels it is better to never get the new Viewliner II order, than to get it late?

I mean, even if this is just a negotiation tactic, stopping all work on a project that is already running late, isn't going to help the schedule.

I know that bashing Amtrak is a favorite sport among some, but in this case it is worth finding out some more facts before deciding that Amtrak is or is not doing something right or wrong. URPA clearly has a huge axe to grind - doesn't it always? During manufacturing and delivery there always are bumps and bruises on the road involving quality control and other contractual matters, which sometimes requires taking an action to meet contractual obligations in order to not lose the ability to question certain things later. For the moment I would not place great weight on this until we learn more facts about what this is about.

 

[dlagrua]

Its CAF's own fault that they are behind schedule. CAF probably didn't even start Viewliner production. The article appears to indicate that CAF is overwhelmed with transit contracts from SEPTA, CTA, SCCRA and not doing a good job of it. Here the political establishment decimates American industry shuts down Budd, destroys Pullman and hangs its hat on foreign company's for our passenger rail cars. Who's next in line Hyundai? New Viewliners are badly needed. There aren't even enough in the fleet to replace any in the event of a wreck. What Amtrak should do is to buy up all of the old heritage equipment in the USA and start modernizing and refurbishing immediately. This is how VIA rail has done it.

 

[afigg]

The newsletter is put out by the United Rail Passenger Alliance, which is not the most reliable source. I stopped paying attention to their newsletter a long time ago when it was being posted on this forum. Tends to run to almost hysterical overtones with, in my opinion, sometimes bizarro viewpoints on things.

Meanwhile, the CAF and the Elmira plant has been selected by Cincinnati to build the new streetcars. So the factory is bringing in business.

 

[Ryan]

Its CAF's own fault that they are behind schedule. CAF probably didn't even start Viewliner production. The article appears to indicate that CAF is overwhelmed with transit contracts from SEPTA, CTA, SCCRA and not doing a good job of it.

Do you have any proof to back up those wild accusations, or are you just making stuff up again?

URPA is not what I would call a reliable, unbiased source.

 

[afigg]

Its CAF's own fault that they are behind schedule. CAF probably didn't even start Viewliner production.

There were a number of newspaper photos of actual Viewliner cars in production at the Elmira plant posted months ago. An complete car being fitted out, frames being built. CAF may have fallen behind schedule. Rather hear the facts from a reliable source on whether there will be a delay in delivery.

Ah, here is the link to the photos.

As for the idea of buying up all the heritage equipment in the US and restoring it, that would be a serious waste of money.

 

[jis]

Its CAF's own fault that they are behind schedule. CAF probably didn't even start Viewliner production. The article appears to indicate that CAF is overwhelmed with transit contracts from SEPTA, CTA, SCCRA and not doing a good job of it.

Astounding! I guess you have neither visited CAF's Elmira plant, nor seen photographs of complete Viewliner shells produced by CAF, some of which are in the process of being furnished. Isn't ignorance bliss.

The SEPTA Silverliner V and the Sacramento orders is being fulfilled by Hyundai/Rotem and not CAF. I visited the Hyundai/Rotem Plant in Philadelphia and saw American workers working in clean well appointed shop floors completing outfitting of cars. I doubt that things could be done much better by anyone else. Yes there have been delays due to steel availability in the world market, and even more so because build America required US manufactured Stainless Steel to be shipped to Korea for fabrication of Car bodies which were then shipped to Philadelphia.

BTW, one of the bigger disasters - the Viewliner I fiasco, was a product of entirely US owned and operated companies, and the whole mess was finally cleaned up by Alstom acquiring the leftovers and support contracts, absent which the future of the Viewliner Is would have been bleak. Of course the way URPA words it, it would seem that Alstom finally cleaning up the mess was a bad thing simply because it was Alstom - a *shudder* foreign company.

Incidentally, the upstanding American company that essentially dropped the Viewliner I order on the floor and walked away by spinning it off as under-capitalized Amerail, is now part of Wabtec.

Our learned friends at URPA also appear to be unaware that M8 cars are already running in service on Metro-North New Haven Line for a while.

 

[Trogdor]

Its CAF's own fault that they are behind schedule. CAF probably didn't even start Viewliner production. The article appears to indicate that CAF is overwhelmed with transit contracts from SEPTA, CTA, SCCRA and not doing a good job of it.

Not only are you incorrect about CAF having not started work on the Viewliners, you completely misunderstood what you read in the article. CAF is not working on any contracts for SEPTA, CTA, or SCRRA.

 

[VentureForth]

Its CAF's own fault that they are behind schedule. CAF probably didn't even start Viewliner production.

There were a number of newspaper photos of actual Viewliner cars in production at the Elmira plant posted months ago. An complete car being fitted out, frames being built. CAF may have fallen behind schedule. Rather hear the facts from a reliable source on whether there will be a delay in delivery.

Ah, here is the link to the photos.

As for the idea of buying up all the heritage equipment in the US and restoring it, that would be a serious waste of money.

That was the worst photo gallery ever. Half were of either of two guys welding or grinding. Others were copies of previously posted photos. I saw one roof, and two maybe three Viewliner pics which could have been of the same unit. The rest were pics of the facility.

I know how y'all feel about TWAA and URPA. They put out some good stuff, and I agree much of it is hyperbole at best. That's why I posted the info here. I couldn't find any substantiation to it, but if anyone could, it would be this community.

Really, though, the article focused on the fact that, first, CAF-USA has completed good work and on time in the past. It doesn't mention what the hold up is on the Viewliners. But then the article continues to bemoan the fact that we can't seem to have a good rail car manufacturing company owned and operated in the USA. He talks about the demise of Pullman, Budd, Colorado Railcar, and Amerail which only became a white knight when it changed citizenship.

The premise of the article is very real. Where is the pride of the American corporation? We have the skill set and we have the experience. We just don't have the real commercial demand locally for the products we want.

 

[jis]

Really, though, the article focused on the fact that, first, CAF-USA has completed good work and on time in the past. It doesn't mention what the hold up is on the Viewliners. But then the article continues to bemoan the fact that we can't seem to have a good rail car manufacturing company owned and operated in the USA. He talks about the demise of Pullman, Budd, Colorado Railcar, and Amerail which only became a white knight when it changed citizenship.

The premise of the article is very real. Where is the pride of the American corporation? We have the skill set and we have the experience. We just don't have the real commercial demand locally for the products we want.

I agree. We should not ourselves go overboard bashing the messenger, URPA in this case, about a relevant message either. I also admit that at times I am guilty of such myself.

As reality stands passenger car business is a capital intensive business that is hard to get into. Companies that are leaders today have built up their inventory of technologies by judicious purchase of same from US and other companies. The giants like Alstom, Siemens, Stadler, Bombardier, Kawasaki, CAF, Talgo and Hyundai/Rotem have significant cost advantages as a result of decades of nurturing and development in the area they consider their bread and butter, and all of them barring none, produce excellent products all over the world, many which operate satisfactorily in far more trying circumstances than any obtained in the US. As luck would have it, much of the US developed technology in this area is now owned by a Canadian company that has massive operations in rail equipment mostly located in Europe, and now spreading to China and India.

For a new startup in this area there will always be significant cost disadvantages and intellectual property gap, and ROI will be low to nonexistent for a while. This makes it relatively difficult for a new entrant to suddenly pop up and succeed in the US or elsewhere.

So bemoaning the absence of US owned companies is fine, but doing so by trying to bash fine upstanding foreign companies and their US owned subsidiaries is not OK in my view. Afterall we have been able to produce spectacular lemons ourselves given a chance, far worse than any that we have seen from these companies in the recent past. Exhibit A would be Morrison-Knudsen and Viewliner I involving spinoff of a grossly under-capitalized Amerail which had to finally be rescued by Alstom to keep the Viewliner I project on an even keel. As mentioned before MK went on to become part of Wabtec.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

What is causing this delay?

It's time to inaugurate the next forty years of 1980's BoxLiner technology already!

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

The premise of the article is very real. Where is the pride of the American corporation? We have the skill set and we have the experience. We just don't have the real commercial demand locally for the products we want.

Aren't the Viewliner II's being built here in the USA, using skilled American workers?

 

[benjibear]

I am sure there are two (or more) sides to the story. Hopefully it will not hold up the cars being released.

As far as the pictures, you need to rememebrt that gallary is from a newspaper. They don't always have the bets pictures for us diehards.

 

[jis]

The premise of the article is very real. Where is the pride of the American corporation? We have the skill set and we have the experience. We just don't have the real commercial demand locally for the products we want.

Aren't the Viewliner II's being built here in the USA, using skilled American workers?

This is substantially true of CAF USA, Kawasaki USA, Siemens USA, Alstom USA and Hyundai/Rotem USA. They all employ American skilled workers in well paying jobs. It is not like the American companies treat their employees necessarily any better either.

 

[trainfan969]

The premise of the article is very real. Where is the pride of the American corporation? We have the skill set and we have the experience. We just don't have the real commercial demand locally for the products we want.

Aren't the Viewliner II's being built here in the USA, using skilled American workers?

I don't believe there are issue with the made in the USA by American workers, but that the company employing these workers are a foreign corporation.

 

[Dutchrailnut]

so here is your chance , name one American company still in business of passenger railcars.

or any rail part providers not in hands of foreign investors ??

 

[Ryan]

The premise of the article is very real. Where is the pride of the American corporation? We have the skill set and we have the experience. We just don't have the real commercial demand locally for the products we want.

Aren't the Viewliner II's being built here in the USA, using skilled American workers?

I don't believe there are issue with the made in the USA by American workers, but that the company employing these workers are a foreign corporation.

Why is that a problem?

 

[WICT106]

so here is your chance , name one American company still in business of passenger railcars.

or any rail part providers not in hands of foreign investors ??

It isn't Super Steel, in Milwaukee -- that's for certain. Shoot, Super Steel is eligible to act only as a subcontractor (Kawasaki, I think).

 

[jis]

The premise of the article is very real. Where is the pride of the American corporation? We have the skill set and we have the experience. We just don't have the real commercial demand locally for the products we want.

Aren't the Viewliner II's being built here in the USA, using skilled American workers?

I don't believe there are issue with the made in the USA by American workers, but that the company employing these workers are a foreign corporation.

.... and the issue is exactly what?

Look, for example the Acelas were built in Canada and USA with substantial French and Canadian technology by a collaborative effort between a Canadian and French company, and subsidized by the Canadian Government, which possibly made all the difference between getting them at all or not. What exactly do we have to complain about?

The Viewliner IIs are being built by a reputable car manufacturer which has delivered thousands of cars to multiple railroads in the world, and doing so in the US using US labor. So what is the problem?

What is the alternative? Sit around 15 years hoping that some American owned company will step up to the plate and until then buy nothing?

BTW, everyone believes that the Boeing 787 is built by a true blue American company in the US of A. I suggest that people dig underneath and see what proportion of a Boeing 787 is actually manufactured in the USA. One may be surprised. For that matter if one looks at how much of the big bad Airbus manufactured 380 is manufactured in the USA one may be surprised too.

 

[Trogdor]

BTW, everyone believes that the Boeing 787 is built by a true blue American company in the US of A. I suggest that people dig underneath and see what proportion of a Boeing 787 is actually manufactured in the USA. One may be surprised. For that matter if one looks at how much of the big bad Airbus manufactured 380 is manufactured in the USA one may be surprised too.

Drifting off topic a bit, (and I haven't looked up actual data, so this could be wrong) but I wouldn't be surprised if, other than the location where the final rivets (or "fasteners" as they're called on the plastic planes these days) are installed, the total US vs. foreign content of a Boeing and Airbus plane is essentially equal.

As for the topic on-hand, I have yet to see this story reported in a legitimate, reputable (and not so horribly biased as to make a political party's convention look like an honest analysis of national policy) source. This is just like the last one that stirred up a bunch of controversy on here, where Joe Boardman was allegedly "flying off the handle" at meetings, yet nobody seemed to have heard of that except for J. Bruce Richardson and his "unnamed sources." Given the speed at which news travels these days, something like this would show up somewhere. But it hasn't.

 

[jis]

Drifting off topic a bit, (and I haven't looked up actual data, so this could be wrong) but I wouldn't be surprised if, other than the location where the final rivets (or "fasteners" as they're called on the plastic planes these days) are installed, the total US vs. foreign content of a Boeing and Airbus plane is essentially equal.

As for the topic on-hand, I have yet to see this story reported in a legitimate, reputable (and not so horribly biased as to make a political party's convention look like an honest analysis of national policy) source. This is just like the last one that stirred up a bunch of controversy on here, where Joe Boardman was allegedly "flying off the handle" at meetings, yet nobody seemed to have heard of that except for J. Bruce Richardson and his "unnamed sources." Given the speed at which news travels these days, something like this would show up somewhere. But it hasn't.

I agree with you on both.

 

[afigg]

As for the topic on-hand, I have yet to see this story reported in a legitimate, reputable (and not so horribly biased as to make a political party's convention look like an honest analysis of national policy) source. This is just like the last one that stirred up a bunch of controversy on here, where Joe Boardman was allegedly "flying off the handle" at meetings, yet nobody seemed to have heard of that except for J. Bruce Richardson and his "unnamed sources." Given the speed at which news travels these days, something like this would show up somewhere. But it hasn't.

I don't see any other sources with the URPA story on the CAF production either. Not at the reputable industry news sites nor other railroad forums which usually leap to post bad news related to Amtrak. By now, I too would have expected the reputable news sources to pick up on it if there was any substance to the claims made by the URPA site. Until a reliable source posts information about schedule delivery problems at CAF, we should ignore the URPA claims.

 

[NE933]

Unfortunately there are many people who derive great satisfying gratification in spreading bad news, real or otherwise, to cause worry and destabilization.

False hope news, where things look rosier than they really are, are the opposite pole. I want news that states uninterrupted, uncolored facts, with an insightful and mindful list of likely outcomes or options the key players are considering.

The CAF Viewliners. This is the only place anywhere, even when Gooogled, unless someone who is a non-enabler can state forth otherwise, that has mentioned of a stop work order. Bruce Richardson, if you are reading me now, please engage with us why you have need to bring out a report that causes so much worry at a time in this uncertain chapter of our lives when clearly it is the last thing we need. You've done this steadily before. Isn't there some other, more constructive outlet for your own worries? If it's vengeance against Amtrak that you are after, then steal a bunch of napkins in the cafe car and kick a door. Then consider it done, and even, and don't look back. Please don't take us and yourself down this road. As I said, we need clearer information, not maldigested diarhea that has taken over and made a hold of itself to every news outlet and internet forum I come across.

Thank you, God Bless, and please be well.

 

[VentureForth]

Now now. It was mentioned on the railroad.net forums and commented on by two active members of this thread when it was brought up last month that the CAF-USA removed information about the Viewliner order from the website. So, either one of two things is happening. Either 1) Nothing is really going on and no one really knows anything and CAF-USA is chugging along at the order or 2) There are issues and URPA is not a crazed lone basket case.

That being said, there is still a very generic, very old mention on their corporate Spanish site (in English).