Pere Marquette Stranded North of Holland

[VentureForth]

What a weird story. The Pere Marquette was stranded North of Holland and apparently, eventually the crew timed out after moving the train a mile (with just 25 miles to their destination) and the town of Holland ready to offer assistance (but never asked).

Read the story for yourself, and wonder if Amtrak had some other [free] options available to them, not excluding knowing that the crew would time out and sent out a new crew earlier.

http://www.hollandsentinel.com/news/x10604...r-several-hours

 

[the_traveler]

Holland Police Chief John Kruithoff, who brought another officer over to the scene to check out the situation.

“CSX (the company that owns the tracks) denied them access,”

CSX denied the POLICE access? I hope they never need police assistance!

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

I am confused-- so the train was extremely late, why are the police involved?

 

[AAARGH!]

I am confused-- so the train was extremely late, why are the police involved?

I guess they wanted to 'show their hospitality' by pulling everyone off and sheltering them.

SO, I can just see it now.... The dispatcher gives the train an all clear, but the engineer tells them, sorry, we'll have to wait. I have to go get all the passengers from the middle school cafeteria. :blink: :blink: :blink:

Nice that they wanted to help, but they really need to understand how the rails work.

 

[MattW]

I'm not sure that CSX can legally block the police from assisting especially since Amtrak's a federal agency. I'm not sure on this though I"ll have to do some looking.

 

[Guest_yerry_*]

MAYOR said Police were denied access. AMTRAK SPOKESMAN said CSX didn't have a path plowed for the Police officer. Big difference. Area where the train stopped has no roads. Also, the Padnos Center is actually the renovated Pere Marquette train station, a whopping 20 feet from the tracks, not some middle school cafeteria. Snow's pretty deep here. We were still digging out from 16 inches Friday, when we got hit again Sunday night with another foot plus, and it's been snowing all day today (and tonight) to boot.

Of course, they're "still investigating". From talking with friends on the train, it all sounds amazingly identical to the Illinois fiasco a year ago. train held just past a station, nobody had access or permission to simply walk away, hours late become overnight late, yadda, tadda, yadda. And the usual question comes up, "Can't Amtrak talk to people DURING these situations? And can't the freight railroads listen?"

As for Holland's generosity, well, that's Holland, and I'm sure there are plenty of towns just like Holland in the Midwest. My neighborhood in suburban Grand Rapids was ripped up by a pair of tornadoes in '65, and Holland emergency crews, 15 miles away (before the Interstate was built) were on my street before LOCAL crews were. My dad stopped making his "First person to the fire station gets to drive the truck" joke that day.

Something I've noticed; the digital code line Grandville (end of double track W of Grand rapids) to Porter, IN goes out quite regularly in very cold weather. I've had THREE trips delayed by several hours by dead signals. the signal system was this huge multi-step kluge job that was only recently rebuilt in the past two years to bring them in compliance with FRA standardization regs; this is the first I've heard of the Winter reliability issue having NOT gone away.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Even so, putting them all in the train station would have been a nightmare. Not only do you have the problem of the train not leaving when given the all clear, you have a ton of people in an isolated area that are AMTRAK's responsibility, not the townspeople. Some may wonder off, take up shelter, complicate matters further.

No, when a train is delayed the best place for the people to be is on the train, as long as they have food, water, and HEP. The can be supervised by Amtrak persons.

 

[VentureForth]

Certainly better to be on a train than on a plane for 9 hours - at least you have some room to roam. But again, I think that the biggest issue here is simply Amtrak's inability to effectively communicate with local authorities, the railroad, and then relay that information effectively (and encouragingly) to the pax.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Certainly better to be on a train than on a plane for 9 hours - at least you have some room to roam. But again, I think that the biggest issue here is simply Amtrak's inability to effectively communicate with local authorities, the railroad, and then relay that information effectively (and encouragingly) to the pax.

I don't think there was any encouraging information about that.

A bit off that strand of thought: Why is this little town taking this so seriously?

 

[ralfp]

The writer needs to be told that not ever sentence requires a new paragraph.

No, when a train is delayed the best place for the people to be is on the train, as long as they have food, water, and HEP. The can be supervised by Amtrak persons.

Supervised? It is possible to leave people in public without supervision; anyone on the train unsupervised can be allowed in public unsupervised. People are not all little children, though keeping them confined overnight without food or information would make most adults start to act like like children.

Food & water? How much does Amtrak stock the snack carts on that train, if there is one at all? I'd say that a group of 100+ people expecting a 1-5 hour train ride will probably have several individuals who need more (e.g. medication, than can be provided by a snack cart.

Can a timed-out crew legally keep HEP running? Isn't that operating the train?

A bit off that strand of thought: Why is this little town taking this so seriously?

How about the fact that it's a freebie (almost) for publicity? The town will be in the news regardless of what they do. In this situation it's all-too-easy to be the good guy. That, and sometimes people just want to be nice. I'd also consider a case of 100+ people confined overnight against their will to be a public safety matter, regardless of who is at fault.

SO, I can just see it now.... The dispatcher gives the train an all clear, but the engineer tells them, sorry, we'll have to wait. I have to go get all the passengers from the middle school cafeteria. :blink: :blink: :blink:
Nice that they wanted to help, but they really need to understand how the rails work.

They do understand who the rails work in this country: badly. Passenger welfare is part of the equation. Sometimes an additional delay is the price to pay for treating people as more than self-loading cargo.

 

[AlanB]

Can a timed-out crew legally keep HEP running? Isn't that operating the train?

They aren't allowed to move the train if they've outlawed. Keeping the engine running is not against the rules.

 

[ralfp]

They aren't allowed to move the train if they've outlawed. Keeping the engine running is not against the rules.

Makes sense, though it would probably make more sense to allow the crew to move the train to the nearest station, much as an airplane crew can continue to taxi until at a gate.

What if the train is already moving? Can they keep on moving until they otherwise stop, or do they have to stop the train immediately? Can they move the train to unblock an at-grade crossing? How about a medical emergency (on the train or an ambulance waiting at a crossing)?

If a person on the train in question had been in a situation where they needed to get to a hospital or die, would the crew have been allowed to take the action necessary to prevent the person's death?

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

The writer needs to be told that not ever sentence requires a new paragraph.

Thank you for your opinion about my style of posting on a message board which has nothing to do with my professional career.... however, to humor you--

Supervised? It is possible to leave people in public without supervision; anyone on the train unsupervised can be allowed in public unsupervised. People are not all little children, though keeping them confined overnight without food or information would make most adults start to act like like children.
Food & water? How much does Amtrak stock the snack carts on that train, if there is one at all? I'd say that a group of 100+ people expecting a 1-5 hour train ride will probably have several individuals who need more (e.g. medication, than can be provided by a snack cart.

Can a timed-out crew legally keep HEP running? Isn't that operating the train?

The fact of the matter is they are confined to the train cars, safe from the elements and not allowed to wander.

What happens if a pax decided to venture out for a smoke into the snow and got hit by a car?

What happens if a pax decides to go exploring?

I can see the headlines now:

"Amtrak sued for letting teen wander around Holland"

Its a safety matter.

The pax are Amtrak's responsibility--

If something went wrong, Amtrak could, emphasis: could, be held accountable.

 

[MrFSS]

Passenger jumped from delayed Amtrak train while parked outside Holland.

Full story is HERE.

 

[ralfp]

The writer needs to be told that not ever sentence requires a new paragraph.

Thank you for your opinion about my style of posting on a message board which has nothing to do with my professional career.... however, to humor you--

I was referring to the writer of the article. My apologies if it appeared otherwise. I certainly would hold a forum post to a much lower standard than a newspaper article (as I do for my own published articles and forum posts). I'm sure my posts are not the pinnacle of proper language, and I can say that your (ALC_Rail_Writer) posts certainly seem to be of significantly higher writing quality than average (though your opinions are totally wrong ).

What happens if a pax decided to venture out for a smoke into the snow and got hit by a car?
What happens if a pax decides to go exploring?

Those are not reasons to confine people. If they were, I'd have to ask why people are allowed outside unsupervised at all? Those concerns would also apply to people getting off their train at a regularly scheduled stop.

If a child is traveling as an unaccompanied minor, then Amtrak certainly should watch that child.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Passenger jumped from delayed Amtrak train while parked outside Holland.
Full story is HERE.

What a dolt.

 

[VentureForth]

Passenger jumped from delayed Amtrak train while parked outside Holland.
Full story is HERE.

What a dolt.

Funny. 98% of the comments support his actions. He's 24. He's an adult and ready to accept responsibility for his actions. Perhaps the only law broken was trespassing on the ROW for 3 or 4 steps. What could have happened? Get hit by another train?

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Passenger jumped from delayed Amtrak train while parked outside Holland.
Full story is HERE.

What a dolt.

Funny. 98% of the comments support his actions. He's 24. He's an adult and ready to accept responsibility for his actions. Perhaps the only law broken was trespassing on the ROW for 3 or 4 steps. What could have happened? Get hit by another train?

He could have gotten lost, injured himself in the snow, hit by a car, gotten picked up by the wrong guy, any number of things.

 

[AlanB]

I suspect that his opening the door without crew permission is also against the law.

 

[Amtrak OBS Gone Freight]

MAYOR said Police were denied access. AMTRAK SPOKESMAN said CSX didn't have a path plowed for the Police officer. Big difference. Area where the train stopped has no roads.

Exactly! There is a BIG difference here! I am sure the police were not actually denied access to CSX property. I would think a police officer has certain powers available to him/her to hold a train if necessary (even though they better have a darned good reason). A police officer has a public safety obligation to investigate or respond to a call for assistance wherever it is needed. This mayor needs to clarify for us if CSX did in fact tell him "no we are not going to plow a path to where the train is at." It appears to be a huge communication breakdown (how surprising).

The train dispatcher probably should not have released the train form the previous station if he knew the conditions and the amount of time the crew had was so close to expiring. If the crew was still "live" maybe they should have been allowed to make a reverse move if their time permitted. Amtrak may have had a hand in this situation as well though that's a good question. This situation is kinda similar the New Years incident a few years ago with train #98 being stuck in the South Georgia pine woods for over 25 hours (due to a freight train derailment just outside SAV station. Amtrak should not have released the train from the station in JAX as it was not completely known of when the situation would be cleaned up! As far as I am concerned, this is a direct result of what can occur when there are just simply way too many managers, officials, etc to communicate with in order to make some simple decisions. The more folks to go through just further complicates matters! Communication is best when it is kept as short and simple as possible with a clear and defined plan amongst those who can implement it in the safest and most efficient means possible! IMO that's seems kinda hard to do in railroading and the transportation industry as a whole.

OBS gone freight...

 

[amtrakwolverine]

maybe they should start putting a backup crew on the train that can take over should 1 crew outlaw.

 

[Amtrak OBS Gone Freight]

Funny. 98% of the comments support his actions. He's 24. He's an adult and ready to accept responsibility for his actions. Perhaps the only law broken was trespassing on the ROW for 3 or 4 steps. What could have happened? Get hit by another train?

And probably of that 98%, 100% of them are probably not railroaders either. But anyway, he didn't get caught nor does it appear that he got hurt.... so more power to him. Now let's see if he cries wolf and files a lawsuit...... that might get interesting! LOL

OBS gone freight...

 

[AlanB]

maybe they should start putting a backup crew on the train that can take over should 1 crew outlaw.

They would have outlawed too.

FRA rest rules require that the crew have a certain number of hours rest, either at home or in a hotel room. Being on an Amtrak train, even if they are given a bedroom (something not available in this case), does not qualify as FRA manated rest.

 

[AlanB]

The train dispatcher probably should not have released the train form the previous station if he knew the conditions and the amount of time the crew had was so close to expiring.

We don't know the track layout at the station though either. Perhaps the CSX dispatcher didn't want a dead Amtrak train sitting on his only open main.

 

[Amtrak OBS Gone Freight]

I am confused-- so the train was extremely late, why are the police involved?

Because as human beings in general, we tend to be our own worst enemy! No one likes to be constrained or held in one place for an extreme amount of time involved. It is human nature and it comes into play when working with the public. When the answers from the railroad (crew, management, etc) do not satisfy the customers, there is always that one or two who call the "police" and report that they are being held hostage aboard this train!" Most average folks do not understand railroading! But truth be said, it is not the average customers' problem nor place or need to "understand" the railroad! Simply put, they bought a ticket for transportation between two points within a certain amount of time (and most folks are reasonable when it comes to delays and weather). But good customer service starts at the top! And there wasn't a single manager stuck on that train with the passengers, here ( I am willing to bet that I am right about this)! However, I don't want it to appear that I am bad mouthing Amtrak or CSX management, but there needs to be some kind of investigation and streamlining of the processes when potential emergency situations may arise such as this. I am known to preach that all travelers in any mode should have some sort of backup plan (in case their original plans go awry), but the same can be said of the transportation carriers as well!!!

OBS gone freight...