Dutchrailnut
Conductor
there is nothing illegal about it, Amtrak pays a ontime premium to railroads, but if that multi million double stack makes more $$$$ its safe to say who goes first.
class of trains was abandoned decades ago.
Why do Amtrak trains have to give way to freights?
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class of trains was abandoned decades ago.
For one thing, some language that was in the May 1, 1971, legislation authorizing the NRPC, expired in 1996. Specifically, the language that mandated Amtrak precedence over freights. Nowadays, I think the landlord freight railroads are to make a "Good Faith" effort to get Amtrak across their rails without "undue delay," whatever that means. Of course, I'm not a lawyer, and I have no access to the agreements that have been made between the NRPC & the various landlord railroads.
I could also be wrong.
I could also be wrong.
People often complain when an Amtrak train enters a siding and waits while a freight going in the opposite direction passes on the main line. What they don't understand is that the freight may have to slow to 30, 25, or even 15 mph in order to enter that siding (required by the type of switch installed at the siding entrance). It's actually faster for all concerned if the freight holds the main line and continues running at whatever speed it had achieved, usually at least 30 on main lines and often significantly faster than that.
Debates about priority are endless and pointless... and I doubt the Amtrak vs CN/IC case will ultimately lead to any improvement. Historic legislation notwithstanding, Amtrak is not in a strong position when it comes to operating arrangements with the five major freight railroads that host it (UP, BNSF, NS, CSX, and CN/IC). If people are upset about delays to passenger trains, the only rational answer is to increase the capacity of the trackage instead of arguing about how to allocate existing capacity that's inadequate. The freight railroads will not make that investment using private funds, and they shouldn't be expected to; there is no return-on-investment for them, given how Amtrak was set up. Rather, it's up to the public to make those investments. This is happening in certain places -- North Carolina, where I live, is one of them -- but not in others.
Debates about priority are endless and pointless... and I doubt the Amtrak vs CN/IC case will ultimately lead to any improvement. Historic legislation notwithstanding, Amtrak is not in a strong position when it comes to operating arrangements with the five major freight railroads that host it (UP, BNSF, NS, CSX, and CN/IC). If people are upset about delays to passenger trains, the only rational answer is to increase the capacity of the trackage instead of arguing about how to allocate existing capacity that's inadequate. The freight railroads will not make that investment using private funds, and they shouldn't be expected to; there is no return-on-investment for them, given how Amtrak was set up. Rather, it's up to the public to make those investments. This is happening in certain places -- North Carolina, where I live, is one of them -- but not in others.
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This will end the debate, at least until an appeal is filed by the railroads.
https://www.narprail.org/news/releases/stb-affirms-rights-of-rail-passengers/
https://www.narprail.org/news/releases/stb-affirms-rights-of-rail-passengers/
BCL
Engineer
neroden
Engineer
Yep, you're 100% wrong. Current controlling law:
( c ) Preference Over Freight Transportation.—Except in an emergency, intercity and commuter rail passenger transportation provided by or for Amtrak has preference over freight transportation in using a rail line, junction, or crossing unless the Board orders otherwise under this subsection. A rail carrier affected by this subsection may apply to the Board for relief. If the Board, after an opportunity for a hearing under section 553 of title 5, decides that preference for intercity and commuter rail passenger transportation materially will lessen the quality of freight transportation provided to shippers, the Board shall establish the rights of the carrier and Amtrak on reasonable terms.
49 US Code Section 24308 ( c )
I don't know why people say stuff without bothering to do their research. The law's changed a couple of times, but that first sentence has been the same pretty much continuously since 1971. Note that Amtrak does not have preference over other passenger transportation. Note that non-Amtrak passenger transportation does not have preference over freight transporation. Note that an emergency comes first. Note that the freight railroads have a venue for requesting that freight transportation have priority over Amtrak in particular cases, but *have never actually used that venue*. It's quite a reasonable provision, but there have been some serious scofflaws at the freight railroads over the years.
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neroden
Engineer
Forget them. I complain when an Amtrak train is shunted into a low-speed siding -- a third track on a double-track route -- near Syracuse or Amsterdam, while a freight going in the *same* direction occupies the main line, and yes, I've seen it happen more than once. That's CSX. Others have documented irresponsible dispatching by UP. Amtrak has mountains of evidence of irresponsible dispatching by CN and actually filed it with the STB.
To give full credit to BNSF, since I started riding Amtrak in the west in the 2008, I have never seen BNSF pull this kind of crap. Apparently when Matt Rose became CEO in 2002 he told his dispatchers to cut it out and start dispatching Amtrak properly (according to interviews) and they did cut it out. BNSF delays have been, in my experience, fundamentally legitimate.
I also can't think of any *human-dispatched* examples of this kind of crap on NS, though their terrible Auto-Router certainly violated the priority rules.
Fundementally it does not matter how much capacity is created if the freight railroads hog it for themselves (two, three, four, five, six tracks) rather than dispatching properly. Since freight railroads have repeatedly broken the law, the long-term solution is for the passenger operators to control dispatching. Their record of lawbreaking leaves me very unsympathetic to most of the freight railroad managements -- and I *support* freight railroading.
Amtrak to control dispatching on a freight railroad simply because they run (a minority of) trains on it? Fantasy.
What you might get, however, is the situation in the UK where an allegedly neutral third party does the dispatching.
What you might get, however, is the situation in the UK where an allegedly neutral third party does the dispatching.
I think that neither of those scenarios will come to the fore. It will be the situation as it is now concerning dispatching personnel, except that the dispatchers and their chief dispatchers will have to make different decisions on how to run the Amtrak trains so as to not unduly delay them.
One thing I thought of is that Amtrak has bowed to the host railroads by putting a lot of padding in their non-NEC trains because of conflicts with freight trains on the host railroad. Maybe they should shed some of that padding now. If they don't, it could be said that Amtrak is accepting the status quo.
neroden
Engineer
I'm thinking of the situation on the Michigan Line and the Schenectady-Poughkeepsie line -- one or two tracks controlled and dispatched by the passenger operator. The places where this matters have more than one passenger train per day.
jis
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My guess is that such arrangements will be viable only on lines where there is minimal freight traffic anyway. It would take a very serious act of Congress to get such arrangements in place on trackage where the level of freight traffic is above a critical threshold and is of business interest to the freight railroads. As for whether such an act may or may not come to pass is anyone's guess.
So it is quite likely that almost all the trackage south of the Miami - Tampa area could be converted to such. OTOH, such a change on the RVR - PTB - RMT - CHS - SAV - JAX line is very very unlikely, though it might get additional passenger service through mutual agreement. OTOH, on the PTB - RGH (SEHSR) it willc ertainly be the case, and that might get extended down through Columbia to SAV some day conceivably. Just to give an example of possibilities.
So it is quite likely that almost all the trackage south of the Miami - Tampa area could be converted to such. OTOH, such a change on the RVR - PTB - RMT - CHS - SAV - JAX line is very very unlikely, though it might get additional passenger service through mutual agreement. OTOH, on the PTB - RGH (SEHSR) it willc ertainly be the case, and that might get extended down through Columbia to SAV some day conceivably. Just to give an example of possibilities.
PerRock
Engineer
Well the vast majority of the Michigan Line is owned by either Amtrak or MDOT so it's really the same as the NEC. Although it might still be controlled by NS, I know there was talks of changing the dispatching over at a later date then the purchase, but I don't know if/when that happened.
peter
Amtrak has dispatched its own railroad between Porter, IN and Kalamazoo for years from their dispatching center in Chicago. I believe even the Michigan City Drawbridge is controlled now from Chicago. Corrections welcome.
I do not know who dispatches east of Kalamazoo, but I suspect it has been NS.
I do not know who dispatches east of Kalamazoo, but I suspect it has been NS.
BCL
Engineer
How well does Metrolink handle Amtrak and freight railroads?
neroden
Engineer
Metra tends to handle Amtrak pretty well too, though. Metro-North doesn't have such a great reputation for handling Amtrak.
jis
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Or apparently their own trains on occasion either
Dutchrailnut
Conductor
With Metro North train is handled as it should be, you show up late , you loose your slot.
Show up on time they get you to other side on time.
Show up on time they get you to other side on time.
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