Why do Amtrak trains have to give way to freights?

[ToniCounter]

it got me thinking.... can Amtrak trains run on all freight tracks, assuming they have an arrangement with the company that owns the track?

 

[John Bobinyec]

Yes, if the freight company's tracks are standard gauge.

jb

 

[jis]

Yes, if the freight company's tracks are standard gauge.

jb

And of FRA accepted quality for commercial passenger operation.

 

[fillyjonk]

I've seen cases (almost exclusively on the TE) where the conductor would come on the PA, slightly irritated, and tell us we were stopped because we were "waiting on dispatch." It does seem sometimes the dispatchers slow things down a bit.

And of course, once Amtrak gets late, it starts missing "windows" and those latenesses can snowball as they have to wait for other freights, seeing as they are now "outside the window."

My most recent trip we were very nearly on time coming in to MIN, and then we wound up nearly an hour late....got stuck behind a freight having brake problems and, so we were told, the conductor of the freight had to walk down to the car with the brake issue and turn the brakes off on that particular car. I guess we were lucky it was in the middle of the freight consist, or they'd have had to cut it off or something. But it did seem to take VERY long.....

I don't particularly MIND freights having priority as they are the ones paying for track maintenance, by and large. But I do think some of the dispatchers might occasionally get a bit passive-aggressive about things and intentionally let Amtrak get slow.

 

[ToniCounter]

I've seen cases (almost exclusively on the TE) where the conductor would come on the PA, slightly irritated, and tell us we were stopped because we were "waiting on dispatch." It does seem sometimes the dispatchers slow things down a bit.

And of course, once Amtrak gets late, it starts missing "windows" and those latenesses can snowball as they have to wait for other freights, seeing as they are now "outside the window."

My most recent trip we were very nearly on time coming in to MIN, and then we wound up nearly an hour late....got stuck behind a freight having brake problems and, so we were told, the conductor of the freight had to walk down to the car with the brake issue and turn the brakes off on that particular car. I guess we were lucky it was in the middle of the freight consist, or they'd have had to cut it off or something. But it did seem to take VERY long.....

I don't particularly MIND freights having priority as they are the ones paying for track maintenance, by and large. But I do think some of the dispatchers might occasionally get a bit passive-aggressive about things and intentionally let Amtrak get slow.

was chatting with this lady on the LSL the other day... she claimed that Amtrak once sent her and her 2 kids to the Marriott in downtown Chicago, after their train was late for 3 hours and they missed their connecting train. Not only that, Amtrak paid for the taxis as well as two meals.

does Amtrak really pay for all that, even if the delay was caused by freight trains?

 

[WICT106]

If the connection is a "guaranteed connection," then Amtrak would pay that sort of bill. It depends on the terms of Transportation for the trip under discussion. If the trip or connection isn't "guaranteed," then one pays for any hotel rooms, meals, and so forth, oneself.

 

[BCL]

it got me thinking.... can Amtrak trains run on all freight tracks, assuming they have an arrangement with the company that owns the track?

There can be emergency or temporary arrangements. I've heard of Capitol Corridor trains going on a division that the Coast Starlight uses. When there's track work, UP has allowed the Starlight to use the Tehachapi Loop, which they're normally very protective of.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Many times I have left Taylor (TX) on #21/#421 right on time, and when we got to Austin, were put into the hole on Mopac to allow several UP Freights and Rock Trains to chug up the Hill on the Single Track heading North on the McNeil Sub.

This has caused us to be as much as 2 Hrs late into Austin after leaving Taylor right on time.

I talked to one of the UP Dispatchers from Omaha one time, and he told me that this is because of the Single Tracked 1881 Trestle across Lady Bird Lake and the Single Track Main past the Austin Station.( there is a short siding by the Station but it's not long enough for the Eagle or freights so the Eagle stops on the Main during Station work)

The BNSF Dispatchers in Ft. Worth do a much better job with Eagles between Ft Worth and Temple. (ex Santa Fe/Katy).

 

[zephyr17]

Yes, if the freight company's tracks are standard gauge.

jb

And of FRA accepted quality for commercial passenger operation.

Which basically means anything that meets an FRA classification, which most track does. It may not be fast if it is Class 1, 15 mph, but it is legal. The only place passenger trains can't run is FRA excepted track, which is mostly industrial leads (maybe long ones, some branch lines are classed as industrial leads).

 

[zephyr17]

I've seen cases (almost exclusively on the TE) where the conductor would come on the PA, slightly irritated, and tell us we were stopped because we were "waiting on dispatch." It does seem sometimes the dispatchers slow things down a bit.

And of course, once Amtrak gets late, it starts missing "windows" and those latenesses can snowball as they have to wait for other freights, seeing as they are now "outside the window."

My most recent trip we were very nearly on time coming in to MIN, and then we wound up nearly an hour late....got stuck behind a freight having brake problems and, so we were told, the conductor of the freight had to walk down to the car with the brake issue and turn the brakes off on that particular car. I guess we were lucky it was in the middle of the freight consist, or they'd have had to cut it off or something. But it did seem to take VERY long.....

I don't particularly MIND freights having priority as they are the ones paying for track maintenance, by and large. But I do think some of the dispatchers might occasionally get a bit passive-aggressive about things and intentionally let Amtrak get slow.

was chatting with this lady on the LSL the other day... she claimed that Amtrak once sent her and her 2 kids to the Marriott in downtown Chicago, after their train was late for 3 hours and they missed their connecting train. Not only that, Amtrak paid for the taxis as well as two meals.

does Amtrak really pay for all that, even if the delay was caused by freight trains?

Yes, that has happened to me several times in Chicago.

 

[KmH]

https://www.amtrak.com/at-the-station

Connecting Trains
Amtrak does not normally guarantee connections of less than 60 minutes (90 minutes between arriving long-distance trains and local trains in the Northeast Corridor). Please call Amtrak 1-800-USA-RAIL (1-800-872-7245) or your travel agent if your planned itinerary includes a shorter connection. A guaranteed connection does not ensure that such a connection will always be made. In the case of a missed guaranteed connection, Amtrak will provide alternate transportation on Amtrak, another carrier, or overnight hotel accommodations, at Amtrak's discretion.

 

[jis]

Yes, if the freight company's tracks are standard gauge.

jb

And of FRA accepted quality for commercial passenger operation.

Which basically means anything that meets an FRA classification, which most track does. It may not be fast if it is Class 1, 15 mph, but it is legal. The only place passenger trains can't run is FRA excepted track, which is mostly industrial leads (maybe long ones, some branch lines are classed as industrial leads).

yup that is correct. But it is still an additional constraint to be met in addition to track being standard gauge, since we are being pedantic afterall.

 

[JoeBas]

Also a relevant question to ask is, was the Zephyr running on time?

It was to that point. We arrived in Emeryville about 90 minutes down.

 

[me_little_me]

The alleged agreement and law is that Amtrak has the highest priority. They tend to move faster and theoretically shouldn't delay freight traffic by much. There were penalties at one time for failure to give priority, but eventually that went away by court order.

The reality is that most dispatch is performed by the freight railroads, and it can be difficult to delay a freight train because of things such as the length of sidings. For the most part, performance has improved with track improvements. While they may not be the best friend of Amtrak, I have the feeling that to some degree they're trying.

That explanation about long freights doesn't cover two long freights approaching each other.

 

[FormerOBS]

The alleged agreement and law is that Amtrak has the highest priority. They tend to move faster and theoretically shouldn't delay freight traffic by much. There were penalties at one time for failure to give priority, but eventually that went away by court order.

The reality is that most dispatch is performed by the freight railroads, and it can be difficult to delay a freight train because of things such as the length of sidings. For the most part, performance has improved with track improvements. While they may not be the best friend of Amtrak, I have the feeling that to some degree they're trying.

That explanation about long freights doesn't cover two long freights approaching each other.

If one or both is shorter than the nearest passing track, any good Dispatcher can manage the movement. If hey are both longer than the passing track, it can still be done with a saw-by movement if the Dispatcher and operating crews know their business. If the Dispatcher knows his business, this shouldn't have any effect of Amtrak.

Tom

 

[zephyr17]

The alleged agreement and law is that Amtrak has the highest priority. They tend to move faster and theoretically shouldn't delay freight traffic by much. There were penalties at one time for failure to give priority, but eventually that went away by court order.

The reality is that most dispatch is performed by the freight railroads, and it can be difficult to delay a freight train because of things such as the length of sidings. For the most part, performance has improved with track improvements. While they may not be the best friend of Amtrak, I have the feeling that to some degree they're trying.

That explanation about long freights doesn't cover two long freights approaching each other.

Most freight trains fit in at least SOME sidings. Sidings are different lengths as are trains and some freight trains will not fit into some sidings. The dispatcher (who knows the train lengths and siding lengths, as do the crews) will determine a meet at a siding at least one of the trains will clear. Any Amtrak train is short enough to fit into the very shortest siding, which gives the dispatcher flexibility to set up a meet.

If they have to, the freight trains can do a saw by, but saw-bys can be time consuming and if they can put Amtrak in a short siding to allow the freights to meet at a clearing siding, they will most likely do that. If Amtrak is on-time when the train reaches the dispatchers territory (in its "slot"), he shouldn't have set up a situation where that would be necessary. If it is out of slot, they just cope and coping may involve putting Amtrak in the hole to allow freight trains to meet at a clearing siding. Hence the old saying "Late trains get later."

 

[AmtrakLKL]

I'd say most dispatchers are competent in their job. There are so many varying factors to running a railroad that even the best dispatchers won't always "get it right." The really good ones know their territory inside and out and will proactively contact a train to advise of signal trouble ahead or where and who you'll be meeting. Had some very good ones today, in fact.

On the flip side, there are some who, despite the odds, always seem to get the meets wrong, don't line up the signals and don't answer the radio when called. Had one of those today, too, with a badly timed meet and a perfectly timed meet. Except on the perfect meet, we didn't get a signal after the opposing train cleared. Toned up the dispatcher, waited about 3 minutes then the signal went clear. Never answered on the radio. Unfortunately, this is a daily occurrence with this dispatcher.

I've also been on Amtrak trains that have delayed freight trains, so it does go both ways, I just care a lot less when we delay them. :giggle:

 

[neroden]

I can't count the number of times that I hear the conductor announce something

like "folks, we'll start moving again shortly, once the CSX freight train gets past

us..." (which usually added 25 to an hour of delay... or worse)

I realize the tracks are owned by CSC or whichever freight train company, but

why do Amtrak trains always seem to give way to freight trains?

Criminal behavior by the freight train companies. That's it pretty much. They control the dispatchers, therefore they can delay Amtrak trains to expedite the freight trains. This is illegal, but they do it anyway, and when they get sued for their criminal activity, they delay Amtrak in court with frivolous legal tactics.

That's pretty much it.

When the dispatchers are controlled by Amtrak, a state government, or even a local commuter railroad, this *does not happen*. When the boss of the freight railroad orders the dispatchers to prioritize Amtrak (which happened on BNSF at one point and there are a couple of other examples), *this does not happen*.

You can still get stuck behind a disabled freight train or a crashed freight train (or you can get cascading delays, particularly on single-track lines), but you don't get this sort of routine illegal delay when a passenger operator controls the dispatching.

 

[neroden]

Governance of traffic movement on a railroad has to be controlled by SOMEONE.

That someone is the Dispatcher.

In a perfect world, the Dispatcher keeps all trains moving, without interfering with one another, until all trains arrive at their destinations on time.

This is not a perfect world.

When the host railroad's Dispatcher fails to keep everything moving in perfect harmony, we sometimes wish we could overrule some decision that Dispatcher has made.

The reality is that we rarely, if ever, know all the things that affect the Dispatcher's decisions.

Even if the Dispatcher's decisions are imperfect, the notion that some outsider should be able to overrule those decisions is wrongheaded and potentially dangerous.

That being said, it is understood that the Dispatcher (representing his employer) is expected to make a good faith effort to serve Amtrak and its customers in a fair way.

If there is clear evidence that a good faith effort has not been made, then there should be consequences.

Unfortunately, it's very hard to prove.

Oh, it's been proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that some of the Class Is have deliberately delayed passenger trains for freight trains in the past. I've heard enough internal leaks. Including from a company which was being hired to design an autorouter system, which was told to design it to delay passenger trains to expedite freight trains. Seriously.
Not every freight railroad commits this sort of illegal behavior, and which freight railroads are breaking the law varies from year to year depending largely on who the CEO is.

The dispatchers do what their bosses tell them to.

To be fair to the freight railroads, most of them have actually gotten a lot better in recent years.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Quote -

"When the dispatchers are controlled by Amtrak, a state government, or even a local commuter railroad, this *does not happen*. "

Sure it does!!! I've sat on the Crescent near Seacaucus Junction waiting for Acela and Regional trains to pass.

 

[Palmetto]

Also, Amtrak doesn't "always" yield to freights. I've been on plenty of trips during which we had the right of way and the freight was sitting on the siding.

+1

 

[Dutchrailnut]

Quote -

"When the dispatchers are controlled by Amtrak, a state government, or even a local commuter railroad, this *does not happen*. "

Sure it does!!! I've sat on the Crescent near Seacaucus Junction waiting for Acela and Regional trains to pass.

hmm an Amtrak dispatcher holding a Amtrak train for other Amtrak trains, maybe Crescent was out of its ordinary time slot and Dispatcher did not want to create other late trains ??

 

[crescent-zephyr]

So when it's an Amtrak dispatcher there is a logical reason but when it's a freight dispatcher it's malicious intent???

And actually it was a late Acela and an on time Crescent. Meaning the dispatcher wanted to get the Acela into NYP asap and holding the crescent 10 minutes is not a big deal when it's still going to count as "on time." But again... Most freight dispatchers have logical reasons for holding Amtrak as well.

 

[neroden]

The difference is, of course, that it's *legal* to delay a passenger train for another passenger train. It's *illegal* to delay a passenger train for a freight train. This isn't actually very complicated. It's not a question of whether they had what they thought were good reasons, it's a question of whether they had what *Congress* thought were good reasons.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

The difference is, of course, that it's *legal* to delay a passenger train for another passenger train. It's *illegal* to delay a passenger train for a freight train.

And, I believe, there is a hierarchy on the NEC. Acela - LD and/or regional - commuter (SEPTA, etc).