Virginia Governor proposes funds for Roanoke Extension
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While that might be a workable option, I suspect that the state is going to be leery about having different trains using entirely different stations, if just because of the confusion potential (to say nothing of lost connection potential where applicable). I'm also getting the feeling that a direct RVR-LYH connection is going to be behind several other projects in terms of state priority, too.
abcnews
OBS Chief
I would guess that RVR to LYH and Roanoke is unlikely. Just not enough passenger traffic. I'm thinking that the future of Amtrak in Roanoke will be tied to the Northeast corridor (North-South direction via Lynchburg) and the heavy volume of passengers it would draw, verses an East-West route to Petersburg or Richmond that is not very direct, through little populated areas on meandering rail lines that are already heavy laden with coal traffic.
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Well, I suspect that the long long-term plan is likely going to be for the TDX to run from Hampton Roads to Roanoke. The other thing is that your east-west options connecting ROA or LYH and NFK/NPN come in two varieties: Out of the way and winding. ROA-RVR is three hours, give-or-take, and the "fastest" route takes you right by Staunton. So I suspect there's at least a modest market for this, especially once you add in north/south connections it would enable (Silvers from LYH/ROA, Crescent from RVR/Hampton Roads), to say nothing of erratic winter weather in that part of the state.
News update on the VA transportation funding bill. After coming up with 2 very different bills to raise around $900 million a year in additional revenue for state transportation funding, the VA House and Senate negotiators have reached an agreement on a revised bill. Washington Post article "House, Senate negotiators strike Va. transportation deal". The bill has to be voted on and passed by both houses, but it appears likely that it will pass. I will skip over the revenue, gas tax, and sales tax specifics as the article covers that.
My understanding is that the different bills passed by the VA House and Senate had the funding in them for the passenger rail and transit funding proposed by the Governor. So the odds are very good that the Virginia DRPT will get the funds to advance the service extension to Roanoke, implement the track upgrades for 3 daily trains to Norfolk in the next 3-4 years. The additional proposed transit funding will provide $300 million for the DC Metro Silver Line Phase 2 project to Dulles Airport and should provide a larger pot for other transit projects to tap in future years.
Will have to wait and see what happens to transportation revenue and funding increases in Maryland, PA, and MA.
My understanding is that the different bills passed by the VA House and Senate had the funding in them for the passenger rail and transit funding proposed by the Governor. So the odds are very good that the Virginia DRPT will get the funds to advance the service extension to Roanoke, implement the track upgrades for 3 daily trains to Norfolk in the next 3-4 years. The additional proposed transit funding will provide $300 million for the DC Metro Silver Line Phase 2 project to Dulles Airport and should provide a larger pot for other transit projects to tap in future years.
Will have to wait and see what happens to transportation revenue and funding increases in Maryland, PA, and MA.
I'll make a call or two over the next few days and see what's actually in the bill. I'm guessing that the $50m/yr for intercity passenger rail will be there, but I've got no clue on the rest. The way the numbers have been going on state services, this likely means we'll have between $50 and $55 million/year for capital costs (since it seems quite likely that the capital charges and what have you will more or less be taken care of, and then some, by surging revenue).
The Davy Crockett
Engineer
Hopefully some good will come out of this mess. I read enough to know that the agreement seems pretty screwy. I've heard it said somewhere that it is truly a comprimise because nobody likes it. While there are times when that means it is a good middle of the road agreement, this appears to be like a platypus. An animal designed by a committee that could never fundamentaly agree on the most basic question of what type of animal they were making. :wacko:
R
Ribbon50
Guest
Re: Richmond-Roanoke and West. The track setup with original downtown location of Union Station in LYH would have made use of Kemper Street station easy with a connecting switch. The track west of the old station location has been removed but could be restored through the tunnel near Rivermont Av. and a connection to NS main made west of the tunnel. I don't know what this would cost, however. Originally, N&W trains from Union Station would head directly west to Roanoke avoiding the Southern but crossing the line N of Kemper Street. Trains to Durham would use a track parallel to Southern line passing Kemper Street--there was a small station at 12th street, too. As a child I would visit Kemper Street and occasionally see an old N&W steam locomotive pulling a 2-3 car passenger train on the line parallel to Kemper St.
jis
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Administator
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And then of course there is the added complication of the possible proposal to build a station by Liberty University in Lynchburg too
The Davy Crockett
Engineer
While many details are still missing, here is my Delegate's (as in the Virginia House of Delegates) take on the agreement.
Ryan
Court Jester
Interesting take on the agreement, but HOLY COW! What a breath of fresh air to have an elected representative that interacts with their constituents without just regurgitating some talking points and isn't afraid to say "I'm not sure, I'm still considering where I stand on this".
The Davy Crockett
Engineer
I here you. I think he might be the most constituent responsive elected official I've ever had. He grew up in the jurisdiction and seems to really care about the area he represents.
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Ok, I had a discussion with someone I know. It looks like IPROC got its funding ($50m/yr or so) and I know the Silver Line gets the aforementioned $300 million. I do not know the status of the Mass Transit Trust Fund that's supposed to get funded...I went to the state legislative site, and the bill's current form isn't up yet for a very simple reason: They're still proofreading it for connected changes to what was agreed upon (i.e. making sure that cross-references are updated where something had to be renumbered, making sure that appropriation numbers add up, etc.). But I've been assured that IPROC was funded, which should protect Amtrak operations in VA on a long-term basis.
I've also been told that passage looks likely. It isn't certain (thanks to the situation in the Senate; since this is a tax bill, the Lt. Gov. can't vote), but it seems likely.
I've also been told that passage looks likely. It isn't certain (thanks to the situation in the Senate; since this is a tax bill, the Lt. Gov. can't vote), but it seems likely.
The compromise transportation funding bill was passed by the VA Senate on a 25-15 vote. There were some minute hurdles over Medicaid with Cuccinelli trying to interfer with the deal, but it passed. It is hardly an ideal transportation bill in how it cuts the effective gas tax while increasing the state sales tax. It is also quite a complicated bill with fees, provisions, new wholesale taxes on gasoline & diesel, but this is not a forum to discuss transportation tax and revenue policy for Virginia.
The good news is that the bill passed and there will be additional funding for passenger rail and transit projects in the state. Hopefully Virginia DRPT will get going on the Roanoke extension, capacity upgrades for Norfolk service fairly quickly after the start of the state fiscal year 2014 on July 1. Attorney General Cuccinelli will be the Republican nominee for Governor in the state elections this November and he has made it quite clear that he is no fan of transit projects and I expect passenger rail. If he is elected Governor (my one outright political comment on that thought
:help: ) , he may try to squash or delay passenger rail projects despite broad support from members in both parties. If the Roanoke extension has started track work and Roanoke is already planning for the day the passenger train returns to Roanoke, it will be difficult for him to kill it.
If VDRPT and NS can work at the same speed on the Roanoke extension track projects that they did with the Norfolk service starting it months earlier than originally projected, that would be a welcome course of events. So by sometime in 2016, Amtrak service to Roanoke?
The good news is that the bill passed and there will be additional funding for passenger rail and transit projects in the state. Hopefully Virginia DRPT will get going on the Roanoke extension, capacity upgrades for Norfolk service fairly quickly after the start of the state fiscal year 2014 on July 1. Attorney General Cuccinelli will be the Republican nominee for Governor in the state elections this November and he has made it quite clear that he is no fan of transit projects and I expect passenger rail. If he is elected Governor (my one outright political comment on that thought
:help: ) , he may try to squash or delay passenger rail projects despite broad support from members in both parties. If the Roanoke extension has started track work and Roanoke is already planning for the day the passenger train returns to Roanoke, it will be difficult for him to kill it.If VDRPT and NS can work at the same speed on the Roanoke extension track projects that they did with the Norfolk service starting it months earlier than originally projected, that would be a welcome course of events. So by sometime in 2016, Amtrak service to Roanoke?
The Davy Crockett
Engineer
Somehow it feels like we won the battle but lost the war. This bill is going to come back and haunt us down the road when the lack of real new funding for transportation - that this bill ignores - comes home to roost. But that will be long enough down the road that the people who "crafted" this mess will have moved on to screwing up greater things!
:angry2: :angry2: :angry2:
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Just spoke to some people in Richmond, and the feeling is that Cuccinelli will try and cut taxes off of the surplus in the general fund and mess with the Medicare side of the deal, but that he won't try to do anything to the transportation projects themselves. IIRC, he was in favor of the deal (albeit with some hand-wringing) until the Dems heaped Medicare-related demands (which have nothing to do with transportation) into the mix.
There is substantial new funding for transportation in the bill, even though the bill is ridiculously complicated. Northern VA and Hampton Roads will see the sales tax increase to 6% with the revenue from the extra 0.7% over the new state sales tax level to go to local transportation projects. The 3.5% wholesale tax on gasoline is set to increase by 1.6% in January 2015 if Congress does not pass a bill allowing states to collect taxes on internet sales. Since Congress can't agree on anything these days, the odds of the increase are probably quote good. Diesel is subject to a 6% wholesales tax which should work out to an increase over the 17.5 cents sales tax. I hope the Wash Post or someone will post a complete summary of what is in the compromise bill, because it is a mess.
Looking at the additional expenditures McDonnell proposed in January, it has the spending on capital costs for the Roanoke extension and Norfolk service expansion mostly spent by FY2017 with DC to Richmond funding picking up after that. If the state budget maintains the ~$50 million a year in additional passenger rail spending after that in combination with the current funded levels, the logical step would be to spend those annual funds on DC to Richmond Main Street upgrades as the EIS work is completed and pursue restoration of service through Main Street to Petersburg. Once there are 3 daily trains to Norfolk, there will be political pressure and support to spend the funds to enable the trains to go through Main Street Station and downtown Richmond. Quite a lot can get accomplished over time with $50 to $100 million a year in capital project state funding if the Governor and state legislatures don't divert the funds. Even more if there is federal funding available with a 20% state match.
The Davy Crockett
Engineer
Thanks for summarizing and sharing what are undoubtedly most of the major parts of this monster! :hi:
I agree that it should help provide more money for badly needed transportation projects and programs. Amtrak and Metro's Silver Line have emerged from the chaos with more funding and the future of rail here in the Old Dominion is looking good... depending on who wins the Governor's race this year. On that note, one of the more interesting political aspects of this is how it has opened a fissure in the Republican Party in the state, with some still hammering on their 'no new taxes drum,' while others realized that the state is in deep doo doo when it comes to keeping things moving in the more developed parts of the state. However, IMHO, while it helps the situation, I think this bill will ultimately do more for the Governor's political aspirations than it will to relieve congestion in the long term.
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Based on the read I'm getting from some circles, it's probably put a bullet in them. He's not going to be able to claim getting rid of the gas tax (which was likely his main intent with this), he hiked the sales tax while the state is running a surplus, and he had to agree to Medicare expansion to get it through the Senate. That's two strikes for no gained advantage.
Actually, to be quite candid, it was a mixed bag bill but it was better than losing rail service, so I supported the bill with a clothespin over my nose. However, with that said (and yes, I recognize this is political, but so be it), Bob McDonnell will very likely never get my support at the primary level ever again. This bill was a horribly-coordinated mess, it was thrown out there without any political consultation with his caucus (they were informed a few hours in advance), and it did all the wrong things on tax policy. Unless we get stuck with him as a nominee again, I'm probably done with him for good. I'm glad we got something through, but it's a real piece of work.
The Davy Crockett
Engineer
Anderson, You make good points about this. The angle I see in this is that Gov. McDonnell got BOTH Democrats and Republicans to agree to something that at least does something to address the transportation woes the state faces, even if - as you put it - everyone had to put a clothespin on their collective noses to do it. As sequestration looms, and the two parties seem ever farther apart, this is no small accomplishment and could give Mr. McDonnell an angle that few other politicians seem willing to embrace, as they see it as touching the third rail. Will this work for him? Time will tell, just as it will for the new legislation.
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Don't want to get too sidetracked on discussing Gov. McDonnell's political plans, because once he steps down as Governor of Virginia, he is no longer a key player in Amtrak expansion and service in the state. McDonnell has hurt himself in the presidential process in the Republican primaries, but those are 3 years away and much of the immediate flap will have faded. Besides if McDonnell does run for President, he would really be running for a Vice-President slot on the ticket as whoever gets the Republican nomination may pick him for the swing state electoral votes. But enough on that.
What I will be interested to see if there are carryover effects in MD and PA from Virginia raising taxes to pay for transportation.
MD is facing the same short fall in funding with a fixed excise tax that has not been increased in decades and has kicked the can down the road before on either raising the gas tax or other revenue sources for transportation. There is a proposal to add a 3% wholesale tax on gasoline to adjust for inflation over the past several decades. The Purple Line and Baltimore Red Line LRT projects and plans for MARC expansion are at risk without increased state funding being made available. Both the Purple Line and Baltimore Red Line would directly connect to the NEC so they would increase the value of the NEC as a corridor. The Purple Line would terminate at New Carrolton, running to College Park & UMD, Silver Spring, Bethesda. That could boost Amtrak ridership at New Carrolton with a faster trip to PHL, NYP from College Park than taking the Metro south to Union Station. So what happens in MD for increased transportation revenue would have implications for Amtrak. As does what happens in PA and MA.
What I will be interested to see if there are carryover effects in MD and PA from Virginia raising taxes to pay for transportation.
MD is facing the same short fall in funding with a fixed excise tax that has not been increased in decades and has kicked the can down the road before on either raising the gas tax or other revenue sources for transportation. There is a proposal to add a 3% wholesale tax on gasoline to adjust for inflation over the past several decades. The Purple Line and Baltimore Red Line LRT projects and plans for MARC expansion are at risk without increased state funding being made available. Both the Purple Line and Baltimore Red Line would directly connect to the NEC so they would increase the value of the NEC as a corridor. The Purple Line would terminate at New Carrolton, running to College Park & UMD, Silver Spring, Bethesda. That could boost Amtrak ridership at New Carrolton with a faster trip to PHL, NYP from College Park than taking the Metro south to Union Station. So what happens in MD for increased transportation revenue would have implications for Amtrak. As does what happens in PA and MA.
trainviews
Service Attendant
In general gas taxes as a percentage is an even worse idea than a fixed amount. Historically gas prices have been fluctuating a lot. A percentage tax will make it almost unforseeable how much the tax brings in and it worsens the gas price fluctuations, which are damaging to the general economy.
The problem with fixed amount taxes is that they get outrun by inflation, but they have the advantage of mitigating oil price shocks (this is why these fluctuations create much less fuzz in Europe. Without discussing other pros and cons of gas tax levels,with the high gas taxes here half of the price or so at the pump is tax, so a dollar a gallon increase in wholesale gas prices creates a much lower price increase percentagewise on the already high prices at the pump. Prices people are accustomed to and have already factored into their personal economies)
So the sensible way to do it in my oppinion is a fixed amount tax, which automatically regulates itself upward with general inflation. This would more or less secure revenues, but I guess a selfregulating tax, even if pretty low, would be very hard to get through...
The problem with fixed amount taxes is that they get outrun by inflation, but they have the advantage of mitigating oil price shocks (this is why these fluctuations create much less fuzz in Europe. Without discussing other pros and cons of gas tax levels,with the high gas taxes here half of the price or so at the pump is tax, so a dollar a gallon increase in wholesale gas prices creates a much lower price increase percentagewise on the already high prices at the pump. Prices people are accustomed to and have already factored into their personal economies)
So the sensible way to do it in my oppinion is a fixed amount tax, which automatically regulates itself upward with general inflation. This would more or less secure revenues, but I guess a selfregulating tax, even if pretty low, would be very hard to get through...
Ryan
Court Jester
The problem in Maryland is that Annapolis has a history of dipping into the transportation fund for other uses.
I'd wholeheartedly support a gas tax increase if it actually went toward transportation, but I'm lukewarm on supporting it of they're just going to siphon the extra funds off (no pun intended) for other uses.
I'd wholeheartedly support a gas tax increase if it actually went toward transportation, but I'm lukewarm on supporting it of they're just going to siphon the extra funds off (no pun intended) for other uses.
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Ryan
Court Jester
I knew I liked this guy!
He was on the local news tonight talking about his opposition to the $100 Hybrid tax.
Look what's behind him.
He's got a petition going to try and stop the hybrid tax you can sign if you're so inclined.
http://scottsurovell.blogspot.com/2013/02/veto-hybrid-tax.html
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