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I know it doesn't get done for free but the writer of the report seems to think most of it is waste. Apparently community outreach is a big part that amount.

I'm not against HSR I just don't have any confidence in the state of California's ability to build it. The report also gives a new estimate of total construction cost of 67 billion dollars. Plus an operating cost of 1 billion dollars a year to run it. It was also pointed out that once operational it cannot receive any local, state or federal subsidies. So it will have to generate 1 billion dollars in revenue a year from day one.

It looks like a warning that the project is in danger of becoming a huge money pit.

And you might attack me for this but I agree.
 
stntylr said:
It looks like a warning that the project is in danger of becoming a huge money pit.

And you might attack me for this but I agree.
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Not attacking. Just asking questions. Actually in a perverse way, if California manages to forfeit the grant because they are unable to meet the 2017 deadline, that could be a blessing for some other parts of the country. And of course starting to reconsider which segment to build at this point would seem to elevate the probability considerably that they will fail to meet the deadline.

Incidentally the recent grant to Amtrak for NEC has the same restrictions in terms of the deadline for completing the project. But then again, that is a much smaller and less risky project and is almost certain to be completed before 2017.
 
stntylr said:
Plus an operating cost of 1 billion dollars a year to run it. It was also pointed out that once operational it cannot receive any local, state or federal subsidies. So it will have to generate 1 billion dollars in revenue a year from day one.
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Amtrak's NEC generated just shy of $900 Million last year, and that with much slower speeds than California is talking. So it's not beyond the realm of possibilty that they could generate a billion.

And personally, while I haven't yet gone to read the report, a billion in expenses sounds high to me. Amtrak with much older infrastructure on the NEC, and a RR that predominately averages 3 tracks over much of the ROW only spent $789M last year. And Amtrak runs many more trains on the NEC driving up costs, than will be run on Cali's HSR.
 
This Los Angeles Times editorial on California's HSR continues the newspaper's support for the project. Aside from that, however, it's a harsh assessment, beginning with the state's HSR Authority and including "the needless haste created by Washington's arbitrary deadlines...."

High-speed train wreck

"The train's biggest problems can be laid at the feet of the High Speed Rail Authority, which is overseeing its construction. Inexperienced board members appointed by the governor and Legislature on the basis of political patronage rather than expertise have made a host of poor decisions. Not the least boneheaded of these is the board's plan to take a circuitous route from Los Angeles to Bakersfield by veering through Palmdale and Lancaster. Compared with the more direct route along Interstate 5 through the Grapevine, this would add 30 miles to the trip plus $1 billion in construction costs, and make it all but impossible for the train to meet its promised travel time of 2 hours and 40 minutes from L.A. to San Francisco. The legislative analyst calls for slashing the authority's proposed budget for next year by $185 million and eventually eliminating it, transferring the bullet train's oversight to another agency. We heartily agree."
 
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stntylr said:
I know it doesn't get done for free but the writer of the report seems to think most of it is waste. Apparently community outreach is a big part that amount.
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"Community Outreach" is a polite way of naming teh NIMBY fights and dealing with other issues, both real and (mostly) imaginary, that are raised by those that oppose the project. Dealing with these issues is as much fun as a trip to the dentist when he is out of novacaine, but necessary if the project is to ever be built.
 
WhoozOn1st said:
This Los Angeles Times editorial on California's HSR continues the newspaper's support for the project. Aside from that, however, it's a harsh assessment, beginning with the state's HSR Authority and including "the needless haste created by Washington's arbitrary deadlines...."

The legislative analyst calls for slashing the authority's proposed budget for next year by $185 million and eventually eliminating it, transferring the bullet train's oversight to another agency. We heartily agree."
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1. And how, pray tell, do we not attempt to follow the directions of those providing major money?

2. And what agency do they thing is out there that will do a better job?

Anybody there? Either make some suggestions or go away. This is simply Monday Mornign Quarterbacking, with the exception that is more equivalent to waiting till Thursday to do it.
 
George Harris said:
WhoozOn1st said:
This Los Angeles Times editorial on California's HSR continues the newspaper's support for the project. Aside from that, however, it's a harsh assessment, beginning with the state's HSR Authority and including "the needless haste created by Washington's arbitrary deadlines...."

The legislative analyst calls for slashing the authority's proposed budget for next year by $185 million and eventually eliminating it, transferring the bullet train's oversight to another agency. We heartily agree."
Click to expand...
1. And how, pray tell, do we not attempt to follow the directions of those providing major money?

2. And what agency do they thing is out there that will do a better job?

Anybody there? Either make some suggestions or go away. This is simply Monday Mornign Quarterbacking, with the exception that is more equivalent to waiting till Thursday to do it.
Click to expand...
By implication, they are referring to the Legislative Analyst's suggestion to transfer it CalTrans. You know, that great bureaucracy of train building. :giggle:
 
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Three published reader responses to the above-linked editorial, "High-speed train wreck." Letters copy/pasted to spare slogging through the other 9 printed 5-21-11, with authors' names omitted.

Letter 1:

In 2008, Californians voted for a bullet train from Los Angeles to San Francisco, not local commuter rail improvements, to which The Times suggests some of the federal money for high-speed rail be redirected.

The California High-Speed Rail Authority is starting in the Central Valley because of geographic and financial realities. It is hardly a "train to nowhere." Bullet trains will be able to slow at the northern end and continue to the Bay Area and Sacramento behind a diesel locomotive on existing tracks as an interim solution. This gets us closest in the least amount of time to a viable, statewide high-speed service.

Los Angeles

Letter 2:

We all know that the lure of billions in federal dollars is irresistible, just like free samples from a drug dealer. We need to kill this project before billions more taxpayer dollars are wasted.

At a time when existing infrastructure is falling apart due to less money for maintenance, and our educational system is being savaged for the same reason, how can we think of burdening the future with the cost of a system that not enough people would use? Is it insanity or just stupidity that propels this project onward like a runaway train?

Chatsworth

Letter 3:

Your editorial didn't address one question: whether we are capable of completing such a project in our lifetime.

I live near the 405 Freeway and have watched in wonder and amazement as attempts have been made to widen the freeway.

If it takes many years to widen a couple of miles of freeway, how long will it take to build a high-speed rail system hundreds of miles long?

Los Angeles
 
Federal officials say California cannot delay or relocate the first phase of HSR construction:

U.S. rejects proposed changes to bullet-train project

"In a letter to the rail authority, the Transportation Department stated that general appropriations law and the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act require that construction begin in 2012, the last year the funds would be available.

"The Transportation Department 'has no administrative authority to change this deadline and does not believe it is prudent to assume Congress will change it,' wrote Roy Kienitz, a department undersecretary. 'We recommend that policy makers in California proceed on the basis that this deadline will remain fixed.'"
 
An increasingly bleak financial and political climate at both federal and state levels poses a building threat to California's nascent HSR project. That's no bolt from the blue, but unsettling nonetheless:

Deficit Could Derail Bullet Train

"In coming months, Gov. Jerry Brown will decide whether to issue the bonds to launch the project — at a time when the nation and state are attempting to control mounting public debt that has already damaged both their credit ratings.

"The bullet train hinges on a huge investment of federal dollars when Washington is intent on cutting the nation's budget. Republicans who control the House of Representatives have already declared new rail construction their 'lowest priority.'"

64567098.jpg
 
Anderson said:
Why, oh why, does the best long-distance HSR prospect have to be in the most bankrupt state in America?
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Here in America we have states with the money to spend and states with the will to actually spend it. But we don't have many states with both. Which makes perfect sense when you think about it. It also helps explain why America as we know it will never have a modern national HSR network. The days of dreaming big are still with us, but the days of shared work and sacrifice to achieve a common goal are long gone.
 
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leemell said:
Anderson said:
Why, oh why, does the best long-distance HSR prospect have to be in the most bankrupt state in America?
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I hate to tell you this, but California is far from the most bankrupt state, check out these numbers from 2010.
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I actually think it shows that it is...it has the second-worst deficit, but it's one of only three states showing up in all three columns there. Moreover, its deficit is on a lot more money than AZ's is.
 
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Anderson said:
leemell said:
Anderson said:
Why, oh why, does the best long-distance HSR prospect have to be in the most bankrupt state in America?
Click to expand...
I hate to tell you this, but California is far from the most bankrupt state, check out these numbers from 2010.
Click to expand...
I actually think it shows that it is...it has the second-worst deficit, but it's one of only three states showing up in all three columns there. Moreover, its deficit is on a lot more money than AZ's is.
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Actually it is the debt per capita that counts, AZ has a far smaller population, look at these and then say that CA is the worst.

These are California's numbers:

Debt per Capita: $9,228 (39th) Unemployment Rate: 12.4% (48th) Home Price Change (’06 – ’09): -28.3% (49th) Median Household Income: $58,931 (9th)
 
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CA is marginally worse in terms of debt per capita, but it's farther down on the ratings scale, meaning that it's worse off in terms of debt service. I would also point out that the state has constitutional hangups blocking up tax hikes (Prop. 13), which make things potentially worse than other states...not that tax hikes alone can fix the problems CA is facing.
 
Texas Sunset said:
The days of dreaming big are still with us,
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I really don't think so. It they were, we would have a permanent moon base an people on Mars, probably permanently there, as well. Instead, it has been over 40 years since we have had people beyond orbital limits.

Now back to railroads: We are not getting anything done becuase we are so busy fretting the small stuff. The least and most useless critter can stop major projects. I could go on, but I better quit.
 
George Harris said:
Texas Sunset said:
The days of dreaming big are still with us,
Click to expand...
I really don't think so. It they were, we would have a permanent moon base an people on Mars, probably permanently there, as well. Instead, it has been over 40 years since we have had people beyond orbital limits.

Now back to railroads: We are not getting anything done becuase we are so busy fretting the small stuff. The least and most useless critter can stop major projects. I could go on, but I better quit.
Click to expand...
I've long wanted to see an EIS lawsuit responded to with a statement to the effect of "Fine, we'll assume your worst case scenario. The project still has our support and we consider it to be the best option even then. Simply put, we do not care about your [insert species here]." Of course, then again I'd just assume see the relevant secretary waive out the Tier II process on virtually every major project (Tier I has benefits in terms of weighing options; Tier II just drags on and on while regurgitating a lot of the important Tier I stuff).

And I do tend to agree that we have a habit of chucking big dreams out the window because somebody whines...but I think we have a habit of giving into random complaints far, far too much.
 
High-speed rail route to be revised

CAHSR announced today that the 114 mi. segment between Bakersfild to Freson will be revised. The new design will be published in the Spring. Groundbreaking will continue to be in the Fall of 2012.
 
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Bullet train plan would leave path of destruction (print headline)

"More than a mile-long segment of California 99, the major freeway serving the farm belt, would have to be moved about 100 feet and three exits would have to be closed. In Kings County, a processing plant that handles about a quarter of a million pounds of dairy cow carcasses would be bisected by the rail, said Jim Andreoli, chief executive of Baker Commodities, owner of the plant. Shutting down for even a few days would leave a mountain of carcasses.

"Almost every city and county along the proposed route loses something, but none more than Bakersfield. More than 228 homes and more than a half dozen churches would be taken, many of them in low-income minority communities on the city's east side. The rail authority's plans have both homeowners and government agencies confused.

"In formal comments submitted this month to the authority, Bakersfield officials called the plans 'ambiguous and unstable.' What's more, the authority was being 'clearly unreasonable' in initially allowing only two months for the city to review the plans."

______________

"'Some people will say they screwed a bunch of farmers in Kings County. So who cares?' said Frank Oliveira, a farmer. 'The answer is they will screw you too when it comes to your neighborhood.'"
 
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