National Opt Out of the Airport Scanners Day

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I cannot quote the source, but just read that the dosage from an ordinary chest x-ray is equivalent to 5000 backscatter x-ray scans. That puts the CT scan at 4 times the chest x-ray. Those numbers seem to be the right order of magnitude.
The last time I looked it up full abdominal CT scans generally resulted in dosages hundreds of times that of a conventional chest x-ray. Of course there are many variables in that equation that we have yet to touch on. Whatever we're willing to call a "safe" dose of radiation is a matter of debate even among the experts and varies both by subject and by point of exposure. As these scans are being applied indiscriminately to a very large population of subjects I find it concerning, especially with regard to children and those who have received higher-than-average exposure to other radiation sources. Remember we don't have controlled studies to show us how much radiation a child or a baby can receive before it does any harm, largely because those studies would be illegal and immoral. So we make a guess and hope for the best, but it's not something we should assume is a fully known quantity. It doesn't sound as though you have a dog in this race, and yet you appear rather adamant that we stop questioning the objectivity and veracity of the little information the TSA is willing to give us.
If you read my last post, there are numbers there that the TSA did not generate and they seem to support the TSA. I am not saying not to question TSA numbers, but there are other sources of good scientific repute. Backscatter radiation is not a new technology, just in a new public application. I have worked with and around for ionizing radiation for a major portion of my working life and have served as a Safety Engineer in one of the premier scientific organizations in the world.

I do have a dog in this race, as does anybody who flies commercial.
 
If you read my last post, there are numbers there that the TSA did not generate and they seem to support the TSA.
I was not aware the TSA had generated their own numbers. I thought they were simply regurgitating the same numbers that the manufacturers had released to them. HPS is apparently claiming the dosage received is lower than even the manufacturer claims, but without more information on the testing and methodology used it's hard to know how important that is.

I have worked with and around for ionizing radiation for a major portion of my working life and have served as a Safety Engineer in one of the premier scientific organizations in the world.
Then I would expect you to understand my concerns about the levels we arbitrarily prescribe as "safe" to subjects we can't actually test against in a controlled manner.
 
WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Transportation Security Administration has agreed to allow airline pilots to skip security scanning and pat-downs, pilot organizations said Friday. Pilots traveling in uniform on airline business will be allowed to pass security by presenting two photo IDs, one from their company and one from the government, to be checked against a secure flight crew database, officials at the pilot groups said.

FULL STORY
 
My personal opinion is that these searches violate the "right of the people to be secure in their persons" and that because one person may decide to do something dangerous the government has chosen to require hundreds of thousands of people to be subjected to an intimate search is unreasonable.
Except for the government hasn't required it - you're perfectly welcome to avoid the search by not flying. I guess the question for the judge is going to hinge on if it's unreasonable to expect that people not fly in this day and age (which I think could really go either way).
And that is precisely the key Ryan, the Government didn't walk up to you and say "you have to get into this scanner or submit to the pat down because that's what I want." You brought a ticket! No one forced you to buy that ticket! It was your choice and by making that choice to buy that ticket, you gave you consent to the searches.
However, the same argument does not work on highways. One could say no one asked you to get on a highway. So therefore if you are on a highway we could apply some rule set down by us to search your vehicle without any suspicion about anything. I am told that argument usually does not work very well in case of highways.

Again, I have zero legal training of this sort or any sort. But I notice that today New York Times has a whole article on this issue, and reading that it was clear to me that even in the legal community this is not such a cut and dried, open and shut case as some of you are trying to make it out to be. I think it will need to play its way through the courts before we will know for sure.
 
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I don't disagree! The biggest difference in my mind is that in the case of the highway, there's a long history of court cases that pretty clearly delineate what's legal and what's not. On the other hand, the TSA has been reasonably free from judicial oversight - time to get some cases before the courts and get a reasonable set of rules laid out.
 
My personal opinion is that these searches violate the "right of the people to be secure in their persons" and that because one person may decide to do something dangerous the government has chosen to require hundreds of thousands of people to be subjected to an intimate search is unreasonable.
Except for the government hasn't required it - you're perfectly welcome to avoid the search by not flying. I guess the question for the judge is going to hinge on if it's unreasonable to expect that people not fly in this day and age (which I think could really go either way).
And that is precisely the key Ryan, the Government didn't walk up to you and say "you have to get into this scanner or submit to the pat down because that's what I want." You brought a ticket! No one forced you to buy that ticket! It was your choice and by making that choice to buy that ticket, you gave you consent to the searches.
However, the same argument does not work on highways. One could say no one asked you to get on a highway. So therefore if you are on a highway we could apply some rule set down by us to search your vehicle without any suspicion about anything. I am told that argument usually does not work very well in case of highways.

Again, I have zero legal training of this sort or any sort. But I notice that today New York Times has a whole article on this issue, and reading that it was clear to me that even in the legal community this is not such a cut and dried, open and shut case as some of you are trying to make it out to be. I think it will need to play its way through the courts before we will know for sure.
While true that no one asked you to get on a highway, there are differences.

1) You didn't buy a ticket and enter into a legal contract to drive on that highway; not to mention that in most cases it is a public (Government owned) highway.

2) You are in your own private vehicle that you purchased with your own money.

I will also mention one other item here. First let me note that in this case the "search & seizure" isn't as severe as what's happening in the airports. That is to say, they are only searching luggage, backpacks, and large bags. But here in NY City they started a few years ago with random searches of any large bag for people boarding subways & commuter trains. While I personally think that these searches are an even bigger joke in terms of providing security than what the TSA is doing, nonetheless the city was taken to court by the ACLU I believe (maybe even others) on the 4th amendment.

The courts ruled in the city's favor, and the searches continue.

I consider them a joke because you can just turn around and walk out of the station and board elsewhere, which is what any terrorist with even half a brain would do. I've done that at least once at my home station, walking to the next nearest one. And twice while in Manhattan I've seen them searching at one set of turnstiles, so I just walked to the next set and totally avoided the need to be singled out and searched. I've had nothing dangerous in my backpack, unless one considers a laptop a weapon. I suppose if I smacked someone with it maybe it could be. I just didn't want the hassle and the wait.
 
While true that no one asked you to get on a highway, there are differences.

1) You didn't buy a ticket and enter into a legal contract to drive on that highway; not to mention that in most cases it is a public (Government owned) highway.
As are airports government or government agency owned, so what is your point? Also what exactly is the difference between a toll highway and a service for which you need to buy a ticket? I am afraid I am not seeing the distinction.

The main point is that until now there was a tacit agreement (and case law support for the fact)that the searches at airport security barriers were reasonable. Hence the searches are those that are allowed within the purview of 4th Amendment.

That 4th Amendment does not apply is just a patently false statement. The question about whether these new procedure searches are reasonable or not per 4th Amendment, is the key issue that needs to be decided by the courts. On this I agree with Ryan. This is what a couple of my constitutional scholar acquaintances tell me too. Of course they could be wrong too, no doubt - but again, it is not a cut and dried issue as you have been trying to make it out to be in all your messages.

People do get confused between the searches and seizures that CBP is permitted to carry out before someone is legally admitted to the US, and the sort of searches that can be carried out while within the US. Those two are entirely different things, is what I have been told by several constitutional scholars. Again I am not one and am just stating what I have been told. The TSA searches are of the second variety.

Indeed the TSA itself on its web site clearly states: "Courts characterize the routine administrative search conducted at a security checkpoint as a warrantless search, subject to the reasonableness requirements of the Fourth Amendment. Such a warrantless search, also known as an administrative search, is valid under the Fourth Amendment if it is "no more intrusive or intensive than necessary, in light of current technology, to detect weapons or explosives, " confined in good faith to that purpose,". And to the extent that the searches are consistent with the 4th Amendment, one can choose not to fly if one does not like them. However, the question at hand at this moment is whether the new searches are consistent with 4th Amendment or not.

Of course such pesky things never stop government bureaucrats from figuring out ways around, hoping that no one is paying attention. Afterall in the W era, there was a period when the right of Habeus Corpus (Section 9 Clause 2 of the US Constitution) was suspended by a Presidential order in 2001, but was substantially overturned by the Supreme Court in 2004. Then Congress passed a law removing right of Habeus Corpus from Aliens detained in Guantanamo Bay, and even that was substantially overturned by the Supreme Court in 2006. Even then the matter was not fully resolved until President Obama by executive order restored the right to all at Guantanamo. Of course once the matter had been narrowed down to only those in Guantanamo most of the country lost interest in it.

Bottom line is, every such change should be challenged and run through the courts to establish validity. Just an Executive Order does not make something legal in and of itself, until it has been vetted through the courts.

2) You are in your own private vehicle that you purchased with your own money.
What about Buses? Trains on railroads? Assuming that it is only the privateness of your own car that you bought with your own money, or of a rental which by virtue of the lease agreement makes it private, it should be OK to pat down anyone and if refused to eject him/her from the highway, as long as they were not within their private car bought with their own money?

Shouldn't one being in ones private clothes count for something? :p

So then since someone is not in a private car as soon as s/he steps out of his/her car, it would be OK to catch a person outside his/her car and shove him/her through a airport style patdown for just being on a certain part of highway property? And in a related area then CBP doing TSA style patdowns on Amtrak or NJT trains should be fine too, even when it is within the US borders for those legally in the US. Indeed in the latter cases you *do* buy a ticket to enter into a legal contract to be transported.

Again, (i) I don't know the nuances of the law. But in my view your position is logically inconsistent, at least in a subset of the case even on the highway. (ii) The issue boils down to the reasonableness or lack thereof of the search given the circumstances leading to the search.
 
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From the Los Angeles Times

After weeks of pressure from pilot unions over controversial new airport screening measures, the Transportation Security Administration has agreed to exempt pilots from enhanced pat-downs and full body scans, pilot organizations said Friday.
See TSA Exempts Pilots from Patdowns
 
On the plus side, Amtrak trains seem to be super packed right now. You can forget about having your own row like the old days. Although that might have as much to do with ThanksStuffing as the whole TSA thing. This year most of my family is either driving or taking the train. Hopefully they won't be turned off by the sometimes abrasive staff or the sometimes poor quality food.
 
While true that no one asked you to get on a highway, there are differences.

1) You didn't buy a ticket and enter into a legal contract to drive on that highway; not to mention that in most cases it is a public (Government owned) highway.
As are airports government or government agency owned, so what is your point? Also what exactly is the difference between a toll highway and a service for which you need to buy a ticket? I am afraid I am not seeing the distinction.

The main point is that until now there was a tacit agreement (and case law support for the fact)that the searches at airport security barriers were reasonable. Hence the searches are those that are allowed within the purview of 4th Amendment.

That 4th Amendment does not apply is just a patently false statement. The question about whether these new procedure searches are reasonable or not per 4th Amendment, is the key issue that needs to be decided by the courts. On this I agree with Ryan. This is what a couple of my constitutional scholar acquaintances tell me too. Of course they could be wrong too, no doubt - but again, it is not a cut and dried issue as you have been trying to make it out to be in all your messages.

People do get confused between the searches and seizures that CBP is permitted to carry out before someone is legally admitted to the US, and the sort of searches that can be carried out while within the US. Those two are entirely different things, is what I have been told by several constitutional scholars. Again I am not one and am just stating what I have been told. The TSA searches are of the second variety.

Indeed the TSA itself on its web site clearly states: "Courts characterize the routine administrative search conducted at a security checkpoint as a warrantless search, subject to the reasonableness requirements of the Fourth Amendment. Such a warrantless search, also known as an administrative search, is valid under the Fourth Amendment if it is "no more intrusive or intensive than necessary, in light of current technology, to detect weapons or explosives, " confined in good faith to that purpose,". And to the extent that the searches are consistent with the 4th Amendment, one can choose not to fly if one does not like them. However, the question at hand at this moment is whether the new searches are consistent with 4th Amendment or not.

[snip]
The current TSA pat down is quite consistent, in fact identical with, what law enforcement has been allowed by the courts when a person is detained. The court has allowed that on the basis of officer and civilian safety, even if they are not being arrested (which is different from being detained). If the court is asked this question, then I don't really see that they will see a difference between TSA and street cop procedures as both are related to the safety of people. We shall see.
 
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This is getting just plain stupid.

Flight attendant ordered to show her prosthetic breast.

My wife has one of those. And a titanium hip. I just know they're going to give her the 3rd degree next month.
And all because one agent told her to put her ID on her back.

This BS has got to stop. What next ask females to strip naked so the agent can feel your fake hip?
Strictly speaking, since a replacement hip will not appear as an anomaly in an AIP image, the woman should have no problem breezing through. Nor will an explosive buried inside the body of anyone by whatever means appear as an anomaly. A prosthetic breast (not an implant) or an insulin pump or a colostomy bag are a separate matter, since they will appear as anomalies in an AIP image. Oddly enough at least some people have asserted that an underwear laced with the right kind of powder explosive won't appear as an anomaly either. If that is true then one of the last incidents that occurred would have passed through the new more rigorous screening.
 
There is what appears to me to be a well reasoned item on Yahoo.com:

How did an agency created to protect the public become the target of so much public scorn?
After nine years of funneling travelers into ever longer lines with orders to have shoes off, sippy cups empty and laptops out for inspection, the most surprising thing about increasingly heated frustration with the federal Transportation Security Administration may be that it took so long to boil over.

The agency, a marvel of nearly instant government when it was launched in the fearful months following the 9/11 terror attacks, started out with a strong measure of public goodwill. Americans wanted the assurance of safety when they boarded planes and entrusted the government with the responsibility.

But in episode after episode since then, the TSA has demonstrated a knack for ignoring the basics of customer relations, while struggling with what experts say is an all but impossible task. It must stand as the last line against unknown terror, yet somehow do so without treating everyone from frequent business travelers to the family heading home to visit grandma as a potential terrorist.
You can read the whole article here.
 
I'm a veteran "protester" over the last three decades. I've stood against the military budget, the failure of many government entities to recognize same-sex marriage, and "profiling."

That being said, I've also done everything possible to recognize that the rights and benefits of society should not denied because someone might disagree with my stance. Do I disagree with the TSA rules at this point? Absolutely, I think they border on the edge of paranoia and insanity. But I can also find less-agressive ways of making my point than preventing someone from getting home to a Thanksgiving with their family.

In the end, all of this stuff ends up being judicial. Rather than create havoc for travellers who just want to see their loved ones, call your legislator and ask others to do so as well. It may not have the immediate (instant gratification) result that we so often desire, but a consistent, grass-roots effort has a better chance of being successful in the end (this is just my personal experience, but I am open to other viewpoints as well.)
 
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The current TSA pat down is quite consistent, in fact identical with, what law enforcement has been allowed by the courts when a person is detained. The court has allowed that on the basis of officer and civilian safety, even if they are not being arrested (which is different from being detained). If the court is asked this question, then I don't really see that they will see a difference between TSA and street cop procedures as both are related to the safety of people. We shall see.
I see no reason for either to be applied at an airport. Generally to "detain" someone at least requires some grounds. There is none here.
 
See this article from the Daily Tech.

In summary:

The British Department for Transport (DfT) and the Home Office tested the new 3D scanners thoroughly and found that while they were relatively accurate in catching high-density materials that pat-downs missed (such as knives, box-cutters, or other problem items), they failed to detect most low-density items, including bags of liquid.
The Christmas Day bomber used a 3 oz. package of the chemical powder PETN (pentaerythritol tetranitrate), disguised in his crotch. Hard to detect in a pat down, British politicians familiar with the country's internal research say that "millimeter-wave" scanners would also likely fail to spot the bag of low-density chemical explosives.
If this is true then the very threat that is supposed to be addressed by the full body scanners, turns out, cannot be prevented or addressed with any significant certainty, and it is good at catching things that we could mostly catch already - though I guess we shall grant that a ceramic knife would be better detected by the scanner, provided it is not nicely hidden away somewhere inside the body :) , Meanwhile we will catch all colostomy bags and prosthetic boobs that are there to catch. Oh well.......
 
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