If the Cardinal can't be brought up to daily status...

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I don't think that a daily all coach train can be a go. The lounge-dining car attendant would need a place to rest, so a sleeper or crew car is needed. Would you like to spend the whole trip standing or walking?

:wacko: :wacko: :wacko:
 
The Cardinal is here to stay. It is the only Amtrak Train with a Congressional Mandate. In other words, it would take an act of Congress to cancel the train.

BTW - It's about my favorite Amtrak Route. I think it will become a daily train - once they have some new cars. I think that if Amtrak indeed has to run the Cardinal, then they may as well try to make it profitable. In the 80s it was a daily train with a lot of cars and plenty of riders. So once they get their new equipment, you could see big numbers.

It's also a very scenic route - perhaps one of Amtrak's most scenic. And folks are aware of that - Just try to book a sleeper over the next 90 days. It's almost impossible.

Check out these photos....

http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/8/5/3/3853.1228540890.jpg

http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/0/4/6/8046.1308665611.jpg

http://cliffsrailpictures.smugmug.com/Trains/Depots-Structures-Signs-and/8344342_aDfTD/3/498960829_dGPbN#498960829_dGPbN-A-LB

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/pictures/44666/IMG_3842.jpg
 
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The Cardinal is here to stay. It is the only Amtrak Train with a Congressional Mandate. In other words, it would take an act of Congress to cancel the train.
Unfortunately acts of Nature superseded acts of Congress, even though the Congresscritters may not think so. It won't take anything more than a good storm to potentially temporarily suspend it for ever, Congress or no Congress, unless of course Congress actually specifically decides to fund the restoration of operation - haven't we heard this story somewhere before? :) And you and I both know exactly what today's Congress will do about it. So let us not get overly sanguine about the invincibility of the Cardinal. No, I am not suggesting that anyone is about to do this. All that I am saying is that the special Congressional mandate effectively is a fantasy, specially when the railroad on which it runs itself is teetering on the brink (Buckingham Branch)
 
The Cardinal is here to stay. It is the only Amtrak Train with a Congressional Mandate. In other words, it would take an act of Congress to cancel the train.
Unfortunately acts of Nature superseded acts of Congress, even though the Congresscritters may not think so. It won't take anything more than a good storm to potentially temporarily suspend it for ever, Congress or no Congress, unless of course Congress actually specifically decides to fund the restoration of operation - haven't we heard this story somewhere before? :) And you and I both know exactly what today's Congress will do about it. So let us not get overly sanguine about the invincibility of the Cardinal. No, I am not suggesting that anyone is about to do this. All that I am saying is that the special Congressional mandate effectively is a fantasy, specially when the railroad on which it runs itself is teetering on the brink (Buckingham Branch)
Seconded (with an *; see below). Nothing is certain, especially when it comes to Amtrak trains. As I understand it (and I may be mistaken/misinformed), the Cardinal is NOT operating under a "Congressional Mandate." I've searched, and I've found no such animal. And it would not take an "Act of Congress" to cancel the train. What everyone seems to always refer to is an earmark that Senator Byrd threw in YEARS ago to bring the service back after a hiatus. As far as I know, those earmarked funds no longer directly pay for the Cardinal or they expired, but it would have been a political nightmare to go and cancel the train years later with Byrd still in office. Now that Byrd's gone, I don't know what the repercussions would be if the train were to suddenly become annulled after a natural disaster or similar incident. The most recent test we had was when the CSX bridge went out east of Indianapolis a few weeks ago. Amtrak, to its credit, ran the Cardinal as a stub train between Cincy and New York, and ran a daily Hoosier State between Chicago and Indy, with no service between Indy and Cincy. They could have just as easily annulled service entirely, I suppose; that they did not is encouraging.

The only thing I would hold exception to is suggesting that the Buckingham Branch is teetering on the brink. They are a profitable company, they have a great reputation as a community-friendly enterprise, and they are very friendly to rail fans and non rail fans alike. They have always granted Amtrak passage for special detours when requested, and they run a tight ship. They are a short line, however, and the track condition mirrors that status, especially between Gordonsville and Orange. But when you realize that Amtrak's equipment is just about the only rolling stock that plies those particular rails three times a week, you can hardly blame BBRR for not doing more than basic preventive maintenance on that stretch. From Gordonsville to Charlottesville, and especially from Charlottesville to Staunton, the BBRR track is in pretty decent shape (considering it's mostly jointed). Really, the only big shortcoming of the BBRR from a reliability standpoint is its signal system, which is in the midst of a major upgrade. Parts of that signal system haven't been touched since the C&O days, and when it rains, everything goes nuts. Thankfully, that's quickly changing and associated delays will drop in kind. BBRR gets a bad, undeserved rap sometimes, so that's why I'm quick to defend them. They host Amtrak at what is essentially a break-even deal for them, and they are glad to do it, partially for the benefit of passenger rail, which is something in which they believe and support. If the state of Virginia wants to kick in money to upgrade the slow stretches that the BBRR rarely uses (but that Amtrak trains use/would use), they're happy to maintain it for the higher speeds. Such discussions and proposals are kicked around all of the time (i.e. speeding up Gordonsville to Orange, or upgrading Gordonsville to Doswell for Richmond service), but nothing's come to fruition yet (save the signal upgrade project, which I believe is partially state-funded).

Rafi
 
Wasn't the "congressional mandate" basically removed as soon as it was inserted...some 30 years ago?

Given that Amtrak's original authorization actually expired in 1996 (and its second authorization expired 10 years ago, and then it wasn't even technically reauthorized at all until a couple of years ago or so), I really find it difficult to believe that something Robert Byrd did in the early 80s is still legally in force today.
 
I don't think that the Buckingham Branch railroad owns the track - I think they lease the rails from CSX.

The Cardinal follows a very scenic route that CSX has no intention of abandoning (at this point). They really use the line quite a bit to move empty hopper trains back to WV to reload. Coal prices are very high and CSX is in the process of double tracking their line to Newport News, VA (as it once was in the 1940s). At least from Newport News to Richmond will soon be double tracked. That is actually due to increased coal traffic and an increase in Amtrak trains. Then in Richmond, the line splits with the Piedmont / Mountain Sub offering single track service to Clifton Forge, VA and the River sub offering another single track line to Clifton Forge. Keep in mind that the River line is subject to flooding so they have to have the other route available. Of course, Amtrak also uses the other route (The Mountain Sub). It is this route that is operated by Buckingham Branch.

I was not aware that CSX had sold that line to the Buckingham Branch.
 
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Wasn't the "congressional mandate" basically removed as soon as it was inserted...some 30 years ago?

Given that Amtrak's original authorization actually expired in 1996 (and its second authorization expired 10 years ago, and then it wasn't even technically reauthorized at all until a couple of years ago or so), I really find it difficult to believe that something Robert Byrd did in the early 80s is still legally in force today.
The House and Senate would have to pass legislation to cancel the Cardinal. It is the only train in the Amtrak system that they must operate (by Law). No other train has a mandate. Also if the House and Senate passed the legislation to cancel the train, then the President could still Veto that law. Not sure any of this will ever take place, most likely - Amtrak will just plod ahead with the Cardinal in one form or another.
 
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I don't think that the Buckingham Branch railroad owns the track - I think they lease the rails from CSX.

...

I was not aware that CSX had sold that line to the Buckingham Branch.
They have not. BBRR is on a 99 year lease, if memory serves, but they are responsible for all upgrades, maintenance, and dispatching on the line. In effect, they own and operate, but legally speaking, they lease.

Rafi
 
Wasn't the "congressional mandate" basically removed as soon as it was inserted...some 30 years ago?

Given that Amtrak's original authorization actually expired in 1996 (and its second authorization expired 10 years ago, and then it wasn't even technically reauthorized at all until a couple of years ago or so), I really find it difficult to believe that something Robert Byrd did in the early 80s is still legally in force today.
The House and Senate would have to pass legislation to cancel the Cardinal. It is the only train in the Amtrak system that they must operate (by Law). No other train has a mandate. Also if the House and Senate passed the legislation to cancel the train, then the President could still Veto that law. Not sure any of this will ever take place, most likely - Amtrak will just plod ahead with the Cardinal in one form or another.
Not true. The Cardinal (and show me where I'm wrong here, because in this case I'd love to find out otherwise) is not required to operate by law any more than any other Amtrak train. There is no mandate today; see my above post.

Rafi
 
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Wasn't the "congressional mandate" basically removed as soon as it was inserted...some 30 years ago?

Given that Amtrak's original authorization actually expired in 1996 (and its second authorization expired 10 years ago, and then it wasn't even technically reauthorized at all until a couple of years ago or so), I really find it difficult to believe that something Robert Byrd did in the early 80s is still legally in force today.
The House and Senate would have to pass legislation to cancel the Cardinal. It is the only train in the Amtrak system that they must operate (by Law). No other train has a mandate. Also if the House and Senate passed the legislation to cancel the train, then the President could still Veto that law. Not sure any of this will ever take place, most likely - Amtrak will just plod ahead with the Cardinal in one form or another.
Not true. The Cardinal (and show me where I'm wrong here, because in this case I'd love to find out otherwise) is not required to operate by law any more than any other Amtrak train. There is no mandate today; see my above post.

Rafi
I could be wrong - but I guess that it is tied to their funding. Or perhaps - just a mandate that specifically states that service must be provided on that line in West Virginia. Keep in mind that Senator Robert Bryd (WV) most likely designed this specific legislation. Bryd was a very powerful Democratic Senator. The two current WV Senators would fight to keep that mandate (Rockefeller and Joe Mansion - both Democrats)
 
Wasn't the "congressional mandate" basically removed as soon as it was inserted...some 30 years ago?

Given that Amtrak's original authorization actually expired in 1996 (and its second authorization expired 10 years ago, and then it wasn't even technically reauthorized at all until a couple of years ago or so), I really find it difficult to believe that something Robert Byrd did in the early 80s is still legally in force today.
The House and Senate would have to pass legislation to cancel the Cardinal. It is the only train in the Amtrak system that they must operate (by Law). No other train has a mandate. Also if the House and Senate passed the legislation to cancel the train, then the President could still Veto that law. Not sure any of this will ever take place, most likely - Amtrak will just plod ahead with the Cardinal in one form or another.
Not true. The Cardinal (and show me where I'm wrong here, because in this case I'd love to find out otherwise) is not required to operate by law any more than any other Amtrak train. There is no mandate today; see my above post.

Rafi
I could be wrong - but I guess that it is tied to their funding. Or perhaps - just a mandate that specifically states that service must be provided on that line in West Virginia. Keep in mind that Senator Robert Bryd (WV) most likely designed this specific legislation. Bryd was a very powerful Democratic Senator. The two current WV Senators would fight to keep that mandate (Rockefeller and Joe Mansion - both Democrats)
Agreed--if such a mandate existed. As far as I have been able to determine, if a mandate did exist at one time (IF being the operative word; the only thing I can find is a depleted earmark/authorization), it has long since expired. There is a big difference between a congressional mandate and a congressional earmark/authorization. As far as I can determine, a mandate never existed. An earmark did exist; it was renewed once, and expired over 10 years ago. Since that time, the Cardinal has been no different from any other train. It receives no special funding from the federal government or from West Virginia (or any other state), and it operates at the pleasure of Amtrak and no other entity.

Rafi
 
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A person who works on Capital Hill once mentioned this info to me - but perhaps I got it wrong.... I will check again to see if I can get some details. But the source seemed to speak as if they knew that the Cardinal has a mandate to exist. And specifically - it was the only Amtrak train with this particular mandate. So I assumed it was common knowledge... Perhaps I have the details wrong, so I will check on it and return with an answer.
 
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We had this discussion a few months ago. That post linked to a GAO ruling stating that the "mandate" only lasted as long as the appropriation existed.

I'll let others with more legal background determine whether continued Amtrak appropriations extended the applicability of that mandate, or whether ir only applied to the $569,000,000 appropriated in that bill (see page 10).
 
For what it's worth-admittedly might not be much-Wikipedia describes the Cardinal as a "congressionally mandated passenger train." It doesn't cite any sources for that, however.
 
Without any sources cited, it's not worth any more than the discussion on here about the same subject.
 
I could be wrong - but I guess that it is tied to their funding. Or perhaps - just a mandate that specifically states that service must be provided on that line in West Virginia. Keep in mind that Senator Robert Bryd (WV) most likely designed this specific legislation. Bryd was a very powerful Democratic Senator. The two current WV Senators would fight to keep that mandate (Rockefeller and Joe Mansion - both Democrats)
The two WV Senators are not the only important politicians with regards to the Cardinal. The ranking Democrat on the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee (chaired by Mica) is Nick Rahall of WV who has repeatedly publicly called for the Cardinal to go to daily service because it runs through his district. As the ranking Democrat, that likely means that he would be come Chairman of the Transportation committee if the Democrats were to recapture the House in the 2012 elections. He well could be Amtrak's best friend in the House at the moment, even though his influence is severely limited at the moment as Mica and the Tea Party House Republicans are running amok.

Several sample links on Rahall's desire for a daily Cardinal:

http://www.rahall.house.gov/index.cfm?sectionid=10&parentid=5&sectiontree=5&itemid=1802

http://www.narprail.org/cms/index.php/narpblog/rahall_thehill_column/

If the Cardinal were to go away, the Hoosier state would probably go with it by 2013. That means no rail service, not only to WV, but to Cincinnati and Indianapolis and all the towns on that part of the route. Once a passenger route goes away, it is much harder to restart service over that route as the train stations get repurposed or abandoned, the freight companies put up roadblocks to passenger service without funding upfront. By keeping the Cardinal going, it keeps the bar lower to the idea of and planning for starting a corridor service between Chicago and Indianapolis & Cincinnati. If the Chicago to St. Louis and Chicago to Detroit corridor improvements are seen as successful, that should help break down the political resistance to a much improved and expanded Chicago to Indianapolis and then Cincinnati higher speed corridor service. If not 110 mph max speeds because of the freight railroads, then 90 mph max speeds.

If is unfortunate that Amtrak does not even have the spare equipment capacity to add one train set to take the Cardinal daily right now or this fall. If Cardinal were to go daily, it would have increased ridership, improved cost recovery percentage and build support over time for better passenger rail options for the bigger cities on the route.
 
I doubt very much that Amtrak will either discontinue or increase the number of days of service of the Cardinal in the near future (12 - 18 months). The fact still remains that the Cardinal does not at present have any more of a Congressional mandate than any other train in the Amtrak system.
 
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