If the Cardinal can't be brought up to daily status...

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If the Cardinal can't become a daily train, put sleepers on the Hoosier State and extend it to New York.
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Another alternative is to send it to St. Louis (would that be feasible)?
 
If the Cardinal can't become a daily train,
Aloha

About the only thing I don't understand about trains that are not daily, is why not run Mon-Fri, rather than every other day. Of course that might be havoc scheduling a 3 day train route.
 
If the Cardinal can't become a daily train, put sleepers on the Hoosier State and extend it to New York.

Another alternative is to send it to St. Louis (would that be feasible)?
I suggest you read the FY10 Performance Improvement Plan for the Cardinal which can be found the Amtrak Reports & Documents page at

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am%2FLayout&p=1237608345018&cid=1241245669222

The review team considered splitting the train or moving the western destination to St. Louis, but decided against it because of cost, lack of equipment, and breaking connections with Chicago based trains. With only 3 east coast trains running to Chicago, rerouting to St. Louis is pretty disruptive. Rerouting entirely to St. Louis would mean people in WV, Cincinnati would no longer have direct Chicago service. A split train at Indianapolis is a possibility and the report states Amtrak will reconsider this option in the future, ie after the Viewliner IIs are delivered. It is rather difficult to split a single Viewliner sleeper car and one diner car.
 
If the Cardinal can't become a daily train,
Aloha

About the only thing I don't understand about trains that are not daily, is why not run Mon-Fri, rather than every other day. Of course that might be havoc scheduling a 3 day train route.
It requires as much equipment and almost as many crews to operate Monday to Friday as it does to run daily.

Every other day only needs two sets of equipment.
 
If the Cardinal can't become a daily train,
Aloha

About the only thing I don't understand about trains that are not daily, is why not run Mon-Fri, rather than every other day. Of course that might be havoc scheduling a 3 day train route.
It requires as much equipment and almost as many crews to operate Monday to Friday as it does to run daily.

Every other day only needs two sets of equipment.
No not really. You will need to add an entire Cardinal consist to have daily service. You can't turn a train and get it back to NYP or CHI when the trip is 28 hours (which many times turns into a 30+ hour trip) The CDL leaves NYP at 6:45 AM and arrives in CHI at 10:05 the next day. Due to the length of the trip and the timing you cannot have daily service until a third train is added. We have't ridden the Cardinal due to the 3 day schedule, the lower food quality (Diner Lite) and the fact that the single sleeper only has a hand full of rommettes and two bedrooms to offer. There are also no additional sleepers to be had so don't count on more until the Viewliner II's arrive.
 
It requires as much equipment and almost as many crews to operate Monday to Friday as it does to run daily.

Every other day only needs two sets of equipment.
No not really.
Yes, really. Operating the Cardinal Monday through Friday requires three trainsets. Operating daily requires three trainsets.

Operating every other day (or three days per week) requires two.
 
Hey, guys, what can I say to make you back down this hostility. I don't want any Amtrak train canceled, anywhere! I've never proposed that on this or any other RR forum. In this case, I'm just pointing out that the Card might be "on the bubble." And asking whether if a train loses every amenity but a seat, is it always better than a bus?

Please, let's discuss these questions, or just forget what I said. Let's all talk about trains, instead of arguing with anyone who poses a stray hypothesis.
 
I take the Cardinal twice a year from White Sulphur Springs, WV to Chicago to visit family. It is often late and hard to sleep in coach but it is the most economical and easiest way to get from WV to Chicago. My #1 issue is that I have been yelled at by the conductor for sleeping on the seat next to me, even if it is empty. I say every time I get back to WV "I am never taking that awful train again" but since it is only $140 round trip, I keep riding the rails! If Amtrak cancels the route, i don't know what I will do. The thought of Greyhound is nauseating.
 
All of us agree that nothing short of daily service will save this train from a bad reputation and a pathetic bottom line. The performance improvement plan that Amtrak released in 2010 has all the right pieces, but everything in it must wait until the Viewliner II's are delivered.

While we wait for Viewliner II's to debut, I strongly suggest that Amtrak replace the Hoosier State with a sleeperless Chicago-New York train. This would require only one train set with Amfleet II coaches, a diner/lounge, and a baggage car. Again, it would be almost identical to the Cardinal, albeit without a sleeper.

This train would bring daily service to the entire route, which is what the Cardinal needs in order to improve its market share and its bottom line. Secondly, it would help Amtrak develop a more consistent product in the Chicago-Indianapolis corridor.

This train would fill an important void in the Amtrak system. Then, as soon as the Viewliner II's roll out, this train can easily be replaced with a daily Cardinal. In the meantime, daily service would prompt Amtrak to make the other improvements suggested in the performance improvement plan, such as the revised routing through Chicago and a revised menu in the diner/lounge car.
 
One minor fly in the ointment is that there is no agreement in place either with CSX or Buckingham Branch to operate this train daily and no one at present has a clue as to what the cost parameters are, or at least anyone that has a clue is not speaking about it.
 
Ryan, keep in mind that the vast majority of passengers on the Cardinal ride in coach, not in the sleeper, and only a fraction of the passenger load rides the entire length of the route.

I disagree with you that the choice would be confusing. In truth, it would be LESS confusing than what we have now. Reconsider the fact that the vast majority of passengers on the Cardinal are coach passengers. Under present circumstances, a prospective passenger wanting to go from DC to White Sulfur Springs on Thursday is told that there is no train between these two cities on that particular day. THAT is confusing. However, if Amtrak runs a supplemental all coach train, he or she can make a reservation, buy a ticket, and be gone any day of the week. The average Amtrak customer does not care that the train to White Sulfur Springs on Thursday is a different name and different number than the one that runs on Friday. All he or she cares about is that the train is running and that seats are available.

Think about present circumstances between Indianapolis and Chicago. Talk about confusing - THAT ONE REALLY IS! Passengers who travel from Chicago to Lafayette on Sunday ride in a flimsy Horizon car with no leg rests and may or may not have food service. If he or she travels on Tuesday, they ride in an Amfleet II and have access to a diner/lounge car. If Amtrak ran a supplement to the Cardinal, these passengers would have the same service every day of the week.

The only confusion comes in for sleeper passengers. Anyone insisting on a sleeper would have to travel on the days that the Cardinal runs, but hey, they do that already!
 
Passengers who travel from Chicago to Lafayette on Sunday ride in a flimsy Horizon car with no leg rests and may or may not have food service. If he or she travels on Tuesday, they ride in an Amfleet II...
I don't believe that that's the case.
 
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Passengers who travel from Chicago to Lafayette on Sunday ride in a flimsy Horizon car with no leg rests and may or may not have food service. If he or she travels on Tuesday, they ride in an Amfleet II...
I don't believe that that's the case.
I've done exactly that ride many times (usually on Sunday night!). I cannot tell a significant difference between the two cars. Leaving Chicago on the Cardinal, the food service car opens so late, (well past Dyer) that it's easier just to eat before getting on the train anyway. The diner can get backed up, due to passengers wanting to eat as soon as possible, that the train may get to Rensselaer before you can buy your food, let alone eat it. Realistically, diner service for Chicago-Indianapolis passengers, whether the train is a Hoosier State or a Cardinal, is only going to be convenient if the departure is moved earlier. (Going the other way, from Indianapolis to Chicago, probably works better for breakfast, so having a cafe car on the Hoosier State isn't a complete waste.) Passengers aren't going to get much sleep; if they are going past Lafayette, they'd have to be woken up anyway.

And if the current Hoosier State is transformed into a sleeperless Cardinal, where are the Amfleet cars going to come from? It would be more likely to be the current Hoosier State consist, plus a regular cafe (if possible), with maybe an additional coach or two.
 
There are already a few Amfleet cars out there to make another train set for the Cardinal. It only requires three coaches, a diner/lounge, and a baggage car, the latter being harder to find, but not impossible.
 
I disagree with you that the choice would be confusing. In truth, it would be LESS confusing than what we have now. Reconsider the fact that the vast majority of passengers on the Cardinal are coach passengers. Under present circumstances, a prospective passenger wanting to go from DC to White Sulfur Springs on Thursday is told that there is no train between these two cities on that particular day. THAT is confusing. However, if Amtrak runs a supplemental all coach train, he or she can make a reservation, buy a ticket, and be gone any day of the week. The average Amtrak customer does not care that the train to White Sulfur Springs on Thursday is a different name and different number than the one that runs on Friday. All he or she cares about is that the train is running and that seats are available.

Think about present circumstances between Indianapolis and Chicago. Talk about confusing - THAT ONE REALLY IS! Passengers who travel from Chicago to Lafayette on Sunday ride in a flimsy Horizon car with no leg rests and may or may not have food service. If he or she travels on Tuesday, they ride in an Amfleet II and have access to a diner/lounge car. If Amtrak ran a supplement to the Cardinal, these passengers would have the same service every day of the week.
What you are asking for could be rather complicated operationally. According to the Cardinal PIP report, they could go daily with a 3rd consist, up from the 2 plus a Hoosier state consist they have now. They need 1 additional baggage, sleeper, diner, coach car to make up 3 full consists. What I don't know offhand is the turn around time for the Cardinal consists. The plan may be to tighten the time up in order to go daily with 3 consists. What you are asking for are consists in 2 different configuration that might require 4 consists, 2 of each, in order to run 4 days a week in one configuration - ie no sleeper, no diner, and 3 days a week in the full configuration. It also becomes very confusing in booking the train.

The PIP report mentions the shortage of baggage cars. We know about the limited number of Viewliner sleepers. But does Amtrak have any additional Amfleet II diners to spare? That Amtrak does not even have 1 additional Viewliner sleeper to put into service shows how limited their capacity is. Amtrak may have also rethought whether the Cardinal could reliably be run daily with 3 consists. The Cardinal takes 28 hours NYP-CHI and currently has a lousy OTP of 41.5% for the first 8 months of the fiscal year. How many times would it get to CHI so late that it could not be turned around in time to keep to the schedule?

What the Cardinal really needs is improved reliability and faster trip times. The Midwest Regional Rail System Plan calls for a Chi to Cincinnati trip time of 4:08, vastly better than the current trip time. If Indiana sees success on the Chi-StL and Ch-Det corridors, they could eventually get behind starting up a Chi - Indianapolis corridor service. Which could eventually get extended to Cincinnati (provided OH has a different governor by then). But this will take many years to happen and require a sustained federal HSIPR program. Meanwhile, Amtrak can only hope that Buckingham branch continues to get VA rail funds for track maintenance and the applicable CREATE projects in Chicago can get funded.
 
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The discussion is more or less academic, since CSX has not agreed to run the Card more than three times a week yet, nor has Buckingham Branch. First an agreement needs to be in place before one goes scrounging for whatever car.
 
The discussion is more or less academic, since CSX has not agreed to run the Card more than three times a week yet, nor has Buckingham Branch. First an agreement needs to be in place before one goes scrounging for whatever car.
From what I know of the Buckingham Branch, it is not jammed with traffic, so probably not a problem getting approval there.

The Cardinal PIP plan said that Amtrak had begun discussions with the host railroads. So there has been some conversation between Amtrak and CSX for a while now. Don't know how crowded the route is for CSX traffic, so no idea if going daily would be a problem with CSX. But, unlike the UP $$$ demand for the daily Sunset Limited, have not read any reports that CSX has a problem with daily Cardinal service.
 
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The Cardinal PIP plan also made recommendations based on equipment availability both short term and long term.
 
The discussion is more or less academic, since CSX has not agreed to run the Card more than three times a week yet, nor has Buckingham Branch. First an agreement needs to be in place before one goes scrounging for whatever car.
From what I know of the Buckingham Branch, it is not jammed with traffic, so probably not a problem getting approval there.

The Cardinal PIP plan said that Amtrak had begun discussions with the host railroads. So there has been some conversation between Amtrak and CSX for a while now. Don't know how crowded the route is for CSX traffic, so no idea if going daily would be a problem with CSX. But, unlike the UP $$$ demand for the daily Sunset Limited, have not read any reports that CSX has a problem with daily Cardinal service.
I was just repeating what one of the guys who is on the committee that writes those PIPs told me the other day. Of course he may not know what he is talking about too, :) I did not get the impression that finding the cars for a third consist will be a problem. But he did say that it is more likely that the through cars from Pennsy to Capitol will happen before the Card will go daily. But of course everything can change.
 
Someone needs to edit the Wikipedia page about the Wabash Cannonball which states that this is a song about a fictional train.

Never mind. It was a song based on a fictional train that was later the namesake for the REAL train. Wow, history is confusing!

Next time, I'll read the whole article. :D
 
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There are already a few Amfleet cars out there to make another train set for the Cardinal. It only requires three coaches, a diner/lounge, and a baggage car, the latter being harder to find, but not impossible.
We've crunched the numbers on this forum for Amfleet II, Viewliner, Dining and Baggage car availability enough times to determine that there aren't any single level cars to spare. There are just a few extra cars to cover maintenance rotation and the occasional loss of a car due to an accident. If you go back in the archives there are posts that clearly explain the numbers in the Amtrak roster. Believe me there is just enough equipment available to keep the routes going.

As to the subject of this post- NOTHING is going to change the Cardinal schedule right now. The Cardinal will stay on a three day per week schedule due to the shortage of equipment and for the unavailable space on the trackage. Bear in mind that Amtrak also operates on a "shoe string" budget and there are forces within government that want to shut the system down. Maintaining the status quo is a job in itself.
 
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