High-speed rail for NY to Canada?

[AlanB]

Likewise, does anyone know the speeds along the MNR section? That's another 75 miles or so of track, and there are some good, straight sections that could benefit there

Top speed from Spuyten Duyvil to Manitou is 75 MPH, with lots of exceptions for curves and complex interlockings at major stations. After Manitou it is 80 MPH to just past Garrison, where it goes up to 90 MPH until Beacon. From Beacon on top speeds range from 80 to 90 MPH to Poukeepsie. And of course curves still impact those tops speeds all along the way.

I'm not sure if speeds can be increased much beyond those numbers along the way, and I have to wonder at what cost too. But I can tell you that without considerable pressure from the Governor on the MTA board, not to mention the dollars flowing from Albany which is unlikely, the MTA will not even think about higher speeds for its line as they simply don't need it and don't want the scheduling complications that will come from running Amtrak faster than their own trains.

(to say nothing of the benefits of speeding up the West Side Line/Empire Connection once you get out of Penn).

There are only 10 miles of track between NYP and the bridge at Spuyten Duyvil. The bulk of that has a top speed of 60 MPH, with some 50's & 55's thrown in along the way. Then things slow down for both the bridge and the extremely sharp curves coming into NYP. I suppose that one might be able to bump things up to a top speed of 90 MPH for maybe 7 to 8 miles of the 10, but you're not really buying that much time and there is considerable risk with running 30 MPH faster thanks to all those living in the tunnels and under the overpasses above this line.

 

[jis]

(to say nothing of the benefits of speeding up the West Side Line/Empire Connection once you get out of Penn).

There are only 10 miles of track between NYP and the bridge at Spuyten Duyvil. The bulk of that has a top speed of 60 MPH, with some 50's & 55's thrown in along the way. Then things slow down for both the bridge and the extremely sharp curves coming into NYP. I suppose that one might be able to bump things up to a top speed of 90 MPH for maybe 7 to 8 miles of the 10, but you're not really buying that much time and there is considerable risk with running 30 MPH faster thanks to all those living in the tunnels and under the overpasses above this line.

Also do not forget the sharp curves in the middle of it all by the Trump property at what used to be CP Martha (AFAIR). All that used to be in the open, but is now in a tunnel under various Trump buildings.

I don;t see much chance of saving a lot of time on that segment.

 

[AlanB]

There are only 10 miles of track between NYP and the bridge at Spuyten Duyvil. The bulk of that has a top speed of 60 MPH, with some 50's & 55's thrown in along the way. Then things slow down for both the bridge and the extremely sharp curves coming into NYP. I suppose that one might be able to bump things up to a top speed of 90 MPH for maybe 7 to 8 miles of the 10, but you're not really buying that much time and there is considerable risk with running 30 MPH faster thanks to all those living in the tunnels and under the overpasses above this line.

Also do not forget the sharp curves in the middle of it all by the Trump property at what used to be CP Martha (AFAIR). All that used to be in the open, but is now in a tunnel under various Trump buildings.

I don;t see much chance of saving a lot of time on that segment.

No CP Martha anymore to my knowledge, and not real sure just where it might have been. Don't see any CP in that area. However, there is a 25 MPH curve just past MP 2 at about 2.25 as a guess, which would put it in the general area of the Trump Buildings. And that 25 lies within the 35 MPH overall speed limit from CP Empire at the MP 1 marker. Right after that curve is where the top speed jumps to 60 MPH and shortly after that the train enters the Riverside Park Overbuild.

That ruling 60, save curve restrictions, lasts until CP Inwood at MP 10, where it drops down to 45 MPH for the Harlem River Bridge at Spuyten Duyvil and the tie in to Metro North territory.

 

[jis]

There are only 10 miles of track between NYP and the bridge at Spuyten Duyvil. The bulk of that has a top speed of 60 MPH, with some 50's & 55's thrown in along the way. Then things slow down for both the bridge and the extremely sharp curves coming into NYP. I suppose that one might be able to bump things up to a top speed of 90 MPH for maybe 7 to 8 miles of the 10, but you're not really buying that much time and there is considerable risk with running 30 MPH faster thanks to all those living in the tunnels and under the overpasses above this line.

Also do not forget the sharp curves in the middle of it all by the Trump property at what used to be CP Martha (AFAIR). All that used to be in the open, but is now in a tunnel under various Trump buildings.

I don;t see much chance of saving a lot of time on that segment.

No CP Martha anymore to my knowledge, and not real sure just where it might have been. Don't see any CP in that area. However, there is a 25 MPH curve just past MP 2 at about 2.25 as a guess, which would put it in the general area of the Trump Buildings. And that 25 lies within the 35 MPH overall speed limit from CP Empire at the MP 1 marker. Right after that curve is where the top speed jumps to 60 MPH and shortly after that the train enters the Riverside Park Overbuild.

That ruling 60, save curve restrictions, lasts until CP Inwood at MP 10, where it drops down to 45 MPH for the Harlem River Bridge at Spuyten Duyvil and the tie in to Metro North territory.

Before Trump took over that property there was a small yard there which connected to the Empire Connection via CP Martha. Now it is gone since there is no yard and nothing to connect to.

I suspect that with some effort the 60 could probably go up to 75, but no more. That would give some 4 miles or so of actual 75 mph running maybe, given that there are curve restrictions even in that segment AFAIR. On the whole probably not worth the effort, to save 50 secs or so, if that.

 

[AlanB]

I suspect that with some effort the 60 could probably go up to 75, but no more. That would give some 4 miles or so of actual 75 mph running maybe, given that there are curve restrictions even in that segment AFAIR. On the whole probably not worth the effort, to save 50 secs or so, if that.

I count 8 curve restrictions between MP 2.25 (approx) and MP 10, which is the ruling 60 MPH territory on the line.

 

[George Harris]

George,

Thank you for the chart. It really does help to actually have numbers to go on.

Looking at this, how much of that 80-95 territory could go to 100-110? I know some of those dropoffs are curve-related or yard-related (and besides, the slowdown at Albany and the one at Schenectady are both largely incidental since the train has to stop for them anyway), but I'm seeing well over 50 miles of reasonably quick track that might be a candidate for nudging up further.

Likewise, does anyone know the speeds along the MNR section? That's another 75 miles or so of track, and there are some good, straight sections that could benefit there (to say nothing of the benefits of speeding up the West Side Line/Empire Connection once you get out of Penn).

You would have to run 8.25 miles at 110 instead of 90 to save one minute. I would suspect that almost everyhing under 90 mph is curve related.

 

[afigg]

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the current goal is to reduce NYP to ALB trip times by 15 minutes to a typical schedule time of 2:15. Don't know if the funds that have been provided to NY and Amtrak for the improvements projects for the Poughkeepsie to Albany segment of the corridor are sufficient to achieve that. Or whether there are more projects yet to be funded for other improvements along the entire corridor that are required to get to a reliable 2:15 NYP-ALB time.

Among the HSIPR grants to NY, there is $2.45 million for grade crossing improvements described as "Improvements to the reliability of the existing grade crossing warning device equipment, allowing them to provide satisfactory approach warning times without the need for further upgrade if higher rail speeds are implemented. This project is located at 12 grade crossing locations on the CSXT Hudson subdivision (MP 75.95-126.98)". So, they are upgrading or replacing the sensor equipment so it can handle higher speeds automatically? How many of these crossings have quad gates or at least longer gate arms?

There is also $58.1 million for a 4th track at ALB, Schenectady station upgrades, signal upgrades; $7.9 million to move the signal wires north of Poughkeepsie underground, and, of course, $91.2 million for the second track between ALB and SDY.

The question for the Adirondack is how much can or will the trip time be reduced between NYP and SDY? Looks to me to something less than 3 hours northbound, maybe 3 hours or so southbound to leave padding in to make up for delays north of Saratoga Springs. That leads to the question of what the trip time might be north of SDY with the Customs inspection done at the Montreal station, no stops at St. Lambert or Cantic north of the border.

 

[George Harris]

I suspect that with some effort the 60 could probably go up to 75, but no more. That would give some 4 miles or so of actual 75 mph running maybe, given that there are curve restrictions even in that segment AFAIR. On the whole probably not worth the effort, to save 50 secs or so, if that.

I count 8 curve restrictions between MP 2.25 (approx) and MP 10, which is the ruling 60 MPH territory on the line.

I would be very interested in knowing the speeds and their limits in this area and on up to Poukeepsie. If anyone has a copy of the operating timetables, they normally have a list of speeds in the back pages, or sometimes even next to the scheduly page.

 

[Nathanael]

Looking at all these curves makes me wonder -- tilting trains, folks? Get some for Metro-North too (you only need them for the expresses, since the line has express and local tracks).

 

[Anderson]

Looking at all these curves makes me wonder -- tilting trains, folks? Get some for Metro-North too (you only need them for the expresses, since the line has express and local tracks).

I'm not sure exactly how much speed a tilt train actually gets you. At least with the Acelas, I know it's just a comfort issue. However, the Talgos can somehow go a bit faster up in the Northwest.

 

[jis]

Acelas are allowed to go around curves faster than Regionals. It is a comfort issue for Acelas as well as Talgos. No safety issue involved. Afterall none of the engines/power heads tilt.

 

[Anderson]

Acelas are allowed to go around curves faster than Regionals. It is a comfort issue for Acelas as well as Talgos. No safety issue involved. Afterall none of the engines/power heads tilt.

Does this apply on lower-speed curves (i.e. where all of the limits are <125 MPH)? i.e. Are there curves that are 70 MPH for a Regional but 80 MPH for an Acela?

 

[AlanB]

Acelas are allowed to go around curves faster than Regionals. It is a comfort issue for Acelas as well as Talgos. No safety issue involved. Afterall none of the engines/power heads tilt.

Does this apply on lower-speed curves (i.e. where all of the limits are <125 MPH)? i.e. Are there curves that are 70 MPH for a Regional but 80 MPH for an Acela?

Yes. Although I'm not sure if those are the exact numbers in the case of Acela, but yes, even in areas where the speed for all trains is 125 MPH or less, Acela can still be given a higher speed than a Regional can.

Back when the Acela brake debacle hit, and Metroliners were brought back to fill the void for a while, they ran slower over the entire run than Acela. And it wasn't just because of 125 vs 135 or 150 in places, it was because they have to take certain curves slower than the Acelas no matter what.

Or as another example, I've been on an Acela where the Tilt failed. Because of that, they had to run slower through the curves than normal.

 

[Anderson]

Huh. I'd always been told that it was a "comfort thing" rather than an actual speed issue (and that the Talgo situation had as much to do with tilting as it did with shorter cars in the sets). Then again, passengers getting nauseous or bounced around because of lousy curve handling would qualify as both, I suspect.

Now I can't help but wonder what a tilting set could do along the line in upstate.

 

[jis]

The speed limits set by FRA take comfort into account. Purely from a safety perspective a Regional could run at the same speed as Acelas through all curves. But they are not allowed to do so because the lateral g force would be higher than the standards used by the FRA to set speed limits. So I think you got the words right but the meaning a bit jumbled up.

 

[railiner]

Acelas are allowed to go around curves faster than Regionals. It is a comfort issue for Acelas as well as Talgos. No safety issue involved. Afterall none of the engines/power heads tilt.

The 'comfort issue' could translate into a safety issue as far as the passengers inside go....while the trains themselves can go around the curves at the same speeds, provided their center of gravity is similar, the tilt mechanism directs the centrifugal force so that the passenger is pressed down toward the floor rather than sideways...so they may feel 'heavier' going around fast curves, but are not thrown off their feet.

 

[jis]

Yes, safety of passengers, not of rolling stock.