Effective Transit Alliance's view on the New York Regional Rail network

[jis]

It would be interesting, though, to see a distribution of how LI commuters get to offices in the Financial District. Are they transferring at NYP, at Atlantic Terminal in Brooklyn, or some other route?

LIRR has pretty much decreed that they shall change at NYP by removing all direct service to Atlantic Terminal anyway. To a large extent where people will change is determined by where they are able to get to the easiest. Other cities plan to disperse such convenient point so arrival so as not to overcrowd any single terminal. NY/NJ does just the opposite and then demand huge amount of money to try to meet the demands created by their own poor route planning. Unfortunately the highly fragmented nature of ht organizations involved gravitates towards poor global planning as each tries to optimize its own operations with little regard for what happens overall. And then the NY - NJ rivalry and schism does not help much either.

There was a time when NJT was trying to get funding for ARC Tunnel based on its own generated traffic and they simply could not hit the then specified FTA threshold for the tens of billions it was asking for. So they proceeded to stuff every possible train into Penn Station - well err eventually in the final plans, the Macy's basement station, while denuding Hoboken and even proposing an absurd tunnel connection from what is today the Hudson Bergen Line into the new North River Tubes leading to the Macy's basement, thus adding further to the cost. That is not prudent rational planning. It is blatant fiefdom building. Fortunately that whole house of cards finally collapsed and the monstrosity was not built.

 

[eldomtom2]

Rethink is all about drawing pretty pictures and throwing about hyperbole, to be expected from a Chelsea NIMBY group impersonating professional planners, making stupid analogies with Crossrail and Thameslink.

I'm not sure you've read the report, since for starters it's not from RethinkNYC!

 

[Amtrak25]

From the author of "The Long Island Railroad Today" blog, who spoke at the NJ-ARP annual meeting last Saturday:

Office location of riders to the nearest LIRR terminal:

1. Atlantic Terminal, Brooklyn: 28%
2. Penn Station: 40%
3. Grand Central: 32%

In terms of percentages of direct service from the 10 branches:

1. Atlantic Terminal, Brooklyn: 4% (the rest are up and over transfers at Jamaica to a non-guaranteed shuttle service as though it was another railroad)
2. Penn Station: 51%
3. Grand Central: 39%

Penn Station : Grand Central ridership split is currently 64:36, yet off-peak service is about evenly bifurcated. You are on your own to figure out the transfer to or from the other terminal your train is headed to or from. The Jamaica connection is not guaranteed, often missed by 1 or 2 minutes, which can mean half hour or hour wait eastbound for the next train. That ends 110 years of cross-platform timed connections.
Brooklyn ridership grew 23% from 2016 - 2019
That formed 47% of LIRR ridership growth 2016-2019

This ignores Long Island City.

LIRR stupidly assumed Financial District commuters would go to Grand Central instead of Brooklyn. They were dead wrong. Far Rockaway and Hempstead trains are mostly a Grand Central service on weekdays. They had been the Brooklyn branches. Subway transfers at Brooklyn takes < 1 minute. Grand Central Madison - 10 minutes. Rush hour Brooklyn shuttle started off at 12 minute intervals. They had to reduce it to 8 minutes.
Jamaica was designed for cross platform timed transfers, not standing around and waiting like it is BMT Dekalb Avenue or up and over transfers. There are only 2 such overpasses. The overpass to Shuttle Platform F at Jamaica is at the east end. The subways at Brooklyn are at the west end. Ergonomically, it is all wrong.

LIRR 's lame excuse for everything is refer to the Traintime App. Since there are departure boards and countdown clocks all over Jamaica station, the App has no value other than to be a computer toy to play with while you stand and wait.

LIRR got thousands of comments last year when the draft schedules came out and arrogantly ignored all of them.

LIRR Service Planning, which I heard may have been contracted out, has no idea where people are heading and don't care. Grand Central is over-served and they have done everything possible to kill off Brooklyn ridership and ridership growth.

 

[Amtrak25]

I'm not sure you've read the report, since for starters it's not from RethinkNYC!

I have the Rethink book, which I regard as a comic book. That report is largely based on it. All their hypebole is there.

 

[AmtrakMaineiac]

LIRR Service Planning, which I heard may have been contracted out, has no idea where people are heading and don't care. Grand Central is over-served and they have done everything possible to kill off Brooklyn ridership and ridership growth.

I guess they have to justify the huge amount of money spent on East Side Access, whether or not it meets people's needs.

 

[railiner]

and they have done everything possible to kill off Brooklyn ridership and ridership growth.

Wasn't there talk at one time of converting the Jamaica to Brooklyn route into the NYC Subway system? Along with some of their other routes in Queens?

 

[jis]

Wasn't there talk at one time of converting the Jamaica to Brooklyn route into the NYC Subway system? Along with some of their other routes in Queens?

I have heard random discussions about converting the LIRR Port Washington Branch into an extension of 7 or some such.

 

[railiner]

I have heard random discussions about converting the LIRR Port Washington Branch into an extension of F or some such.

More likely, the Number 7 which parallels much of that branch, and terminates at Main Street, Flushing, a block away from the LIRR station. The problem with that, is the line to Port Washington extends way beyond the City limits, into Nassau County. The LIRR commuter's would not tolerate riding the spartan subway cars that distance, and the subway cars have a much narrower loading gauge, precluding the use of both types of train on the same route, not to mention fare control issues.

The Brooklyn line could possibly even be used by Airtrain from JFK, if a connection was built. The Brooklyn line, if converted to subway operation, could also be extended to use the line east of Jamaica via Locust Manor to Valley Stream. Not sure if the other line could handle all the other LIRR trains, though...

 

[jis]

More likely, the Number 7 which parallels much of that branch, and terminates at Main Street, Flushing, a block away from the LIRR station. The problem with that, is the line to Port Washington extends way beyond the City limits, into Nassau County. The LIRR commuter's would not tolerate riding the spartan subway cars that distance, and the subway cars have a much narrower loading gauge, precluding the use of both types of train on the same route, not to mention fare control issues.

The Brooklyn line could possibly even be used by Airtrain from JFK, if a connection was built. The Brooklyn line, if converted to subway operation, could also be extended to use the line east of Jamaica via Locust Manor to Valley Stream. Not sure if the other line could handle all the other LIRR trains, though...

Yes. Correct, I meant to say 7.

I don't think both rolling stock would be allowed by the FRA to commingle anyway.

Running the JFK Air Train as is would require conversion of whatever line it is to run on into LIM drive. It could be done and potentially could be further extended beyond Atlantic Ave on the IRT. Hey while dreaming dream big

Extending the Subway into Nassau County brings a whole host of issues of jurisdiction and taxation authority and such, so I don't see that happening anytime soon, though it has been talked about in many contexts for many decades.

 

[PVD]

Airtrain use for anything other than what it does now presents some challenges because of the restrictions imposed by the way it was/is financed.

 

[jis]

Airtrain use for anything other than what it does now presents some challenges because of the restrictions imposed by the way it was/is financed.

Those financing restrictions are not a hindrance anymore, as long as the line continues to serve the airport. The restriction on funding infrastructure outside airport property using ticket tax was legislatively relaxed some time back.

The organizational challenge is that it is owned by PANYNJ, so the ownership and operational responsible organization issue has to be resolved, which can be harder than resolving many international issues, the way fiefdoms work in New York.

The additional technical challenge is in extending LIM to places it has not been yet.

 

[PVD]

Thanks, good to know. PA is a unique challenge, but better one than 2 challenges. Not counting LIM, that and ATO are anther hill to climb.

 

[eldomtom2]

I have the Rethink book, which I regard as a comic book. That report is largely based on it. All their hypebole is there.

So you have no actual source for your claim that the Effective Transit Alliance's report is "largely based" on the work of RethinkNYC.

Also, seeing as you approvingly quoted The LIRR Today, you may be interested to know that they are in favour of through-running.

 

[Amtrak25]

I have heard random discussions about converting the LIRR Port Washington Branch into an extension of 7 or some such.

The IRT Flushing line was designed to be extended through Queens onto the Port Washington Branch. Evidence of that is the cut through Murray Hill. It is a 4 track right of way. The two center trackways are vacant, but intended for the LIRR. The two side tracks in use were intended for the IRT.

 

[Amtrak25]

So you have no actual source for your claim that the Effective Transit Alliance's report is "largely based" on the work of RethinkNYC.

Also, seeing as you approvingly quoted The LIRR Today, you may be interested to know that they are in favour of through-running.

LIRR Today calls for a Crossrail style program. Since Gateway does nothing east of 7th Avenue, it is not a Crossrail style program and MTA is not funding Gateway. LIRR is not going to bifurcate their MU fleet with equipment than can't run to Brooklyn and Grand Central just because Jersey is building Hudson River tunnels for NJT.

Effective Transit Alliance calls for the exact same thing as Rethink. They also bring up all the incompatibility, high level platform, signalling, and lack of electrification issues which prevents it from happening.

Rethink simply dismisses it with a one page description of a dual voltage MU, and assumes Amtrak will convert to 60 cycles. They "forgot" there is such a thing as West Side Yard, that LIRR already thru runs with it and seldom occupies the station for more than 10 minutes.

Nobody propses a 5th and 6th East River tunnel nor 6 tracking to Jamaica, which is what a Crossrail system requires. Both simply want to kill Penn Station South, and furthermore, Rethink wants to tear out 10 tracks of legacy Penn Station, a totally ridiculous non starter. The tracks and station slots belong to MTA and Amtrak and are not for sale or scrap.

All these outfits can possibly accomplish is killing Penn Station South and rendering the additional capacity of the two additional Hudson River useless.

 

[railiner]

The IRT Flushing line was designed to be extended through Queens onto the Port Washington Branch. Evidence of that is the cut through Murray Hill. It is a 4 track right of way. The two center trackways are vacant, but intended for the LIRR. The two side tracks in use were intended for the IRT.

I never heard that before…
How far was the IRT supposed to eventually go?

 

[Amtrak25]

I never heard that before…
How far was the IRT supposed to eventually go?

I don't know, maybe Bayside, but definitely not into Great Neck, Nassau County.

 

[eldomtom2]

Effective Transit Alliance calls for the exact same thing as Rethink. They also bring up all the incompatibility, high level platform, signalling, and lack of electrification issues which prevents it from happening.

And they also offer suggestions for fixing such issues.

They "forgot" there is such a thing as West Side Yard, that LIRR already thru runs with it and seldom occupies the station for more than 10 minutes.

Through running is advocated for a great many more reasons than just getting trains to clear Penn Station quickly.

Nobody propses a 5th and 6th East River tunnel nor 6 tracking to Jamaica, which is what a Crossrail system requires.

Do you have any detailed analysis showing that a six-track main line is necessary?

 

[Amtrak25]

And they also offer suggestions for fixing such issues.

Through running is advocated for a great many more reasons than just getting trains to clear Penn Station quickly.

Do you have any detailed analysis showing that a six-track main line is necessary?

It will take the next 80 years to bring just NJT platforms up to LIRR standards, forgtting the signalling issues, and stil expect LIRR to bifurcate the equipment cycles and rosters to be Jersey compatible. Not happening.

The commercial purpose of fixed routing despite 70 route permutations is what ? They simplify the most complex and congested railroad junction (Harold) in the continent with Vignelli style route maps of pairings, rendering it a comic book. They assume 5 - 6 minute dwell time in NYPS. PTC regs and labor contracts require 10 minutes. Right there, their capacity claim calculus is thrown out the window.

The "great many more reasons " are what ? Jamaica and JFK Airtrain ? That is 1% of all LIRR patronage between NYPS and Jamaica. There's also an E train every 4 to 10 minutes.

We have the fact that the LIRR is a 3+1 peak direction operation and there is no place for a reverse-peak operation of NJT trains. Two tracks are being added west of NYPS, yet nothing east. LIRR got out of the back flow operations in the mid-1980's when they built West Side Yard. The LIRR is not the IND subway, and they are not going to constrain their operations and pay operating subsidies for what are essentially deadhead trains because NJT needs a place to stash their trains.

 

[eldomtom2]

It will take the next 80 years to bring just NJT platforms up to LIRR standards

This is an absurd claim to make without very strong proof.

The commercial purpose of fixed routing despite 70 route permutations is what ? They simplify the most complex and congested railroad junction (Harold) in the continent with Vignelli style route maps of pairings, rendering it a comic book. They assume 5 - 6 minute dwell time in NYPS. PTC regs and labor contracts require 10 minutes. Right there, their capacity claim calculus is thrown out the window.

10 minute dwell times would be a significant improvement over the current status quo.

The "great many more reasons " are what ? Jamaica and JFK Airtrain ? That is 1% of all LIRR patronage between NYPS and Jamaica. There's also an E train every 4 to 10 minutes.

I would be very surprised if NYC was the one major city in the world where people do not wish to travel from one side to the other.

 

[Amtrak25]

No it is not an absurd claim for the platforms. The proof is looking at the "progress" that has been made over 30 years. Most of the M&E and the RVL still has low level platforms. Gateway Project scope is Newark Penn to 7th Avenue Manhattan. It does nothing beyond that and MTA has nothing to do with it.

10 minutes dwell time is exactly how long LIRR trains spend sitting in Penn Station and no more than that. It is not LIRR's responsibilty to solve NJT's problems. Since LIRR and NJT trains are routinely 5 to 10 minutes late, OTP would plummet, screwing up connections and single track passing meets on both systems. LIRR is already catching much deserved abuse for replacing Timed Connections at Jamaica with Transfer "Options". Service Planning would be paralyzed. LIRR changes their schedules every 2 or 3 months. They are not going to seek NJT's permission to do so, and vice versa. Tracks 1 thru 4 are stub ended and track 20 -21 do not lead to the Hudson River tunnels, which is where most LIRR trains arrive on.

If people wish to travel from one side to the other, they can transfer, and that can be done in 2 or 3 minutes. You don't disrupt 2 railroads for the 1% that do. LIRR is already catching abuse for altering the entire railroad for the 36% minority headed to Grand Central. With 70 route between LIRR & NJT permuations, the odds of satisfying anyone's itinerary ranges from infinitesimal to zero.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

I would be very surprised if NYC was the one major city in the world where people do not wish to travel from one side to the other.

I've known people from LI who won't consider work in NJ - of course, that's because it's impossible to get between the two easily at the moment.

 

[Amtrak25]

I've known people from LI who won't consider work in NJ - of course, that's because it's impossible to get between the two easily at the moment.

Most New Yorkers working in New Jersey tends to be in Exchange Place, Jersey City. That is PATH country, not NJT.

 

[Thirdrail7]

I still think the solution to Manhattan's woes must include a robust ferry system. While operationally, I can easily dismiss a lot of Amtrak25's concerns with a well placed ALP-45, which can currently operate most places on Amtrak, NJT, LIRR and MNCRR right now, you cannot ignore these facts:

There is nothing "World Class" about sending a New Brunswick train to Hempstead, nor importing delays and cancellations from one railroad onto another.

You will paralyze the region with one major disruption if through running equipment comes to fruition.

Whose operating budgets are we going to blow up for that?

You will never get NJ, NY and CT to come together financially to support an entity to manage this sort of monstrosity. One only needs to look at the Port Authority of NY/NJ to see disfunction at its finest.

Even Conrail tapped out.

 

[Amtrak25]

Running an ALP45DP on LIRR in lieu of 3rd rail MU's would have to be in diesel mode throughout 3rd rail territory and could never run to Grand Central Madison or Brooklyn. They also do not change modes while moving. That may be fun for a Saturday railfan excursion, but completely ridiculous otherwise. And even then, they lack the ASC speed codes for the LIRR, which does not come cheap, and without it means a lot of slow running, unknown or false signal indications, and penalty stops. Sending an Amtrak Empire consist to Shea Stadium (and I think deadheaded to Great Neck) a good 20 years ago was quite an ordeal. They never did it again.

When LIRR leased the MARC cars a few years ago, MARC told them not to touch the cab equipment nor use them as cab cars. They are only there for the bathrooms.