Effective Transit Alliance's view on the New York Regional Rail network

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It is a perennial dream of some which is unlikely to happen anytime soon because no one has come up with a way to do it without huge disruption and for any reasonable budget.

One of the counterarguments is if one wants to spend that sort of money New York should follow the example of other big cities and try to disperse the points of entry instead of creating more concentrated points of entry. But the bottom line still is that the amount of money needed is not going to materialize after the $50 Billion or so that is currently lined up for bringing the NEC upto modern standards and complete all the deferred maintenance.

@Amtrak25 may have more details on the pros and cons since he has been more involved with these discussion through NJ-ARP than I.
 
To really do through running I think you would need a new political entity that would span probably the 3 states involved (NY NJ and CT) which would take over NJT and MNRR. All of the examples they give of through running such as London and Philadelphia happen to already be under one political entity.
 
AmtrakMaineiac said:
To really do through running I think you would need a new political entity that would span probably the 3 states involved (NY NJ and CT) which would take over NJT and MNRR. All of the examples they give of through running such as London and Philadelphia happen to already be under one political entity.
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This is discussed in the report...
 
AmtrakMaineiac said:
To really do through running I think you would need a new political entity that would span probably the 3 states involved (NY NJ and CT) which would take over NJT and MNRR. All of the examples they give of through running such as London and Philadelphia happen to already be under one political entity.
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Yeah. If there's one (of two) cities in the USA that needs a unified S-Bahn network for operational reasons, it would be NYC. Getting everyone to agree to it is a different matter.

This report reads a lot like some of Caltrain's proposed upgrades: level boarding, electrification (to a single standard), and eventually through running at Salesforce Transit Center. I'm a little surprised about how they don't talk about widening platforms as part of Penn Reconstruction to reduce dwell time as part of through-running, but that might be impractical.

Based on their diagram I'm not certain you would need a tunnel linking NYP and GCT if you built the other commuter lines in their last diagram and were able to get through-running working efficiently. It would probably require more money overall than the tunnel, but you would have capacity improvements to take pressure off of NYP.
 
allanorn said:
Based on their diagram I'm not certain you would need a tunnel linking NYP and GCT if you built the other commuter lines in their last diagram and were able to get through-running working efficiently. It would probably require more money overall than the tunnel, but you would have capacity improvements to take pressure off of NYP.
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Building 7 to Secaucus and building a station in the Sunnyside area (or revamping Hunters Point Avenue station, that has terminating platforms for LIRR trains may be a more effective and less expensive ways of reducing pressure of Penn Station. The side benefit is dispersal of point of arrival into the Metropolitan Region thus reducing pressure on Subways around Penn Station, something that is also possibly achieved by running through, but less so than improving connectivity into the Core from peripheral stations using Subways

This could also make it easier then to run through just a subset of trains without costing another arm and leg for building more new infrastructure. But of course, new multi-system rolling stock will still be needed as the currently available rolling stock won;t make it across the Hudson Ocean from the NY side :)

There are many ways to skin a cat. But most of the proposal that involve cooperation between MTA and NJT will most probably not happen without restructuring the organizations and changing their primary goals significantly.

In any case I would be very surprised if even an agreement on doing any run through happens before 2050, let alone implementation, and finding the funding for it.
 
I've always thought that the subway should go under the Hudson to NJ.... I suppose, pie in the sky that it is, the subway and commuter trains would each be folded into a PATH-like agency for each and then gradually harmonize the electrics and rolling stock (talking commuter here) to one standard, probably catenary. Doubt that it'll ever happen, but it sure is fun to speculate.

Of course, I've thought that this should happen in Chicago too, with Metra running through CUS....
 
jis said:
Building 7 to Secaucus and building a station in the Sunnyside area (or revamping Hunters Point Avenue station, that has terminating platforms for LIRR trains may be a more effective and less expensive ways of reducing pressure of Penn Station. The side benefit is dispersal of point of arrival into the Metropolitan Region thus reducing pressure on Subways around Penn Station, something that is also possibly achieved by running through, but less so than improving connectivity into the Core from peripheral stations using Subways

This could also make it easier then to run through just a subset of trains without costing another arm and leg for building more new infrastructure. But of course, new multi-system rolling stock will still be needed as the currently available rolling stock won;t make it across the Hudson Ocean from the NY side :)

There are many ways to skin a cat. But most of the proposal that involve cooperation between MTA and NJT will most probably not happen without restructuring the organizations and changing their primary goals significantly.

In any case I would be very surprised if even an agreement on doing any run through happens before 2050, let alone implementation, and finding the funding for it.
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How would a Sunnyside station help?
 
jis said:
Terminate a bunch of LIRR trains there decongesting NYP. This is over and above the trains that get diverted to Grand Central Madison.
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Then what do you do with all those commuters dropped in the middle of nowhere? I think the IRT 7 line is already loaded over capacity, even with CBTC, so adding a transfer station wouldn't help.
 
joelkfla said:
Then what do you do with all those commuters dropped in the middle of nowhere? I think the IRT 7 line is already loaded over capacity, even with CBTC, so adding a transfer station wouldn't help.
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Hunters Point Ave is next to the 7 station of the same name. The location of the proposed Sunnyside station is under the 7 line with a planned transfer station.
 
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jis said:
Hunters Poit Ave is next to the 7 station of the same name. The location of the proposed Sunnyside station is under the 7 line with a planned transfer station.
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Telling commuters that they'll need to transfer from their comfy LIRR seats to an overcrowded 7 train? They'll hear the screams all the way in Hoboken.

Look at what happened when LIRR told North Shore commuters they would have to transfer at Jamaica, and that was just to another LIRR train.
 
Actually ideally a new terminal should be built to interchange with the new Beooklyn - Queens line that is being proposed. In effect HP does not bring a huge new connectivity beyond what one has from Jamaica and Flushing, except if the proposed air rights office complex is built over Sunnyside is build which would be served by the proposed Sunnyside Station and a bunch of trains can be turned at HP after serving Sunnyside.
 
Through running is a rabbit-out-of-the-hat, notably used to oppose Penn Station South. The East River Tunnels just don't have the capacity, with LIRR jamming three of the four tracks during rush hour. However annoying the current terminal situation is, new money is needed elsewhere.
 
There is nothing "World Class" about sending a New Brunswick train to Hempstead, nor importing delays and cancellations from one railroad onto another. We are not Japan and Switzerland. Rethink is all about drawing pretty pictures and throwing about hyperbole, to be expected from a Chelsea NIMBY group impersonating professional planners, making stupid analogies with Crossrail and Thameslink. Unfortunately, it got some unneeded publicity last summer by Amtrak's Andy Byford, talking out of school at an interview, but showed he has no clue of his subject matter. I am sure Amtrak told him to shut up, thwarting his own railroad's plans while Train Daddy evidently can't seem to perform his day job at Amtrak very well.

Through running elsewhere is done by Addition - adding parallel railroads and supplemental stations, and pairing off one or two lines for complete rebuilding and refleeting. Rethink wants to do it but Subtraction - rip out half the Penn Station tracks (most of which are used and ownded by LIRR and Amtrak and are not for sale or scrap) and Voila!

Tunnel lines 1 & 2 would be eastbound; 3 & 4 westbound. They forgot in their general oblivion to anything east of 7th Avenue that lines 2 & 3 criss-cross in Queens. Now what? Half the trains would be fed left-handed to and from right handed railroads.

There is no regard to re-fleeting two large commuter railroads with tri-voltage locos and MU's that do not exist, would not fit into Grand Central Madison nor Brooklyn, no throughput analysis of Harold Interlocking, already the most congested anywhere on the continent, and no regard to the 3+1 peak flow of LIRR Main Line service. Rethink doesn't contemplate changing so much as a cross tie east of 7th Avenue. Hence my nickname for them - NOthink.

Someone at Metro North was told by MTA to meet with "Rethink". His comments that he posted at Trainorders.com a couple of months ago is that in his words they have no grasp of reality, have their heads up their rear ends, and one cannot have a rational conversation with them.

LIRR trains already through run to West Side Yard. It is not LIRR's responsibility to find a place to stash NJT's trains. There is no reason to run empty reverse peak trains everywhere on both railroads. Whose operating budgets are we going to blow up for that? Most SEPTA rush hour trains terminate at Roberts Yard and 30th Street. Forty years of Center City Tunnel and nobody has ever called SEPTA "World Class".

Jersey is building a tunnel for additional NJT trains. There is no reason LIRR to disrupt their rosters and operations for them. MTA has nothing to do with the Gateway project. It is not a "Regional Rail" project and can't be turned into one simply by Subtraction.

Changing the subject - Sunnyside would be a redundant and useless station. The office buildings are mostly between Court House Road and Queensborough Plaza el stations. Take the #7 from the LIRR at Woodside or Hunterspoint.
 
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Amtrak25 said:
Changing the subject - Sunnyside would be a redundant and useless station. The office buildings are mostly between Court House Road and Queensborough Plaza el stations. Take the #7 from the LIRR at Woodside or Hunterspoint.
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I think Hunterspoint should be revived as a terminal. Just like not all NJT trains need to go to Penn Station, not all LIRR trains need to go into Manhattan. There are ways to decongest Penn Station without spending gadzillion dollars. If gadzillion dollars must be spent it should be to disperse points of arrival, not concentrate them. Since most arrivals in Penn Station use the Subway or Bus any way, there is no reason for anyone to complain about having to use Subway or Bus after arriving in Jamaica, Hunterspoint or Atlantic Terminal. That is how most last miles are done in the NY Mteropolitan area, unless one opts for cabs and Uber/Lyft.
 
jis said:
I think Hunterspoint should be revived as a terminal. Just like not all NJT trains need to go to Penn Station, not all LIRR trains need to go into Manhattan. There are ways to Youdecongest Penn Station without spending gadzillion dollars. If gadzillion dollars must be spent it should be to disperse points of arrival, not concentrate them. Since most arrivals in Penn Station use the Subway or Bus any way, there is no reason for anyone to complain about having to use Subway or Bus after arriving in Jamaica, Hunterspoint or Atlantic Terminal. That is how most last miles are done in the NY Mteropolitan area, unless one opts for cabs and Uber/Lyft.
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What problem does that solve? "Hey you've dealing with the joke of Penn Station since the beginning of time (it was never great). It's getting kind of full. How about we make it all worse?"

People want to go to Penn Station. Demand will increase over time. Sending additional trains elsewhere is fine, but Penn Station needs more service, Jamaica needs more capacity.
 
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jis said:
I think Hunterspoint should be revived as a terminal. Just like not all NJT trains need to go to Penn Station, not all LIRR trains need to go into Manhattan. There are ways to decongest Penn Station without spending gadzillion dollars. If gadzillion dollars must be spent it should be to disperse points of arrival, not concentrate them. Since most arrivals in Penn Station use the Subway or Bus any way, there is no reason for anyone to complain about having to use Subway or Bus after arriving in Jamaica, Hunterspoint or Atlantic Terminal. That is how most last miles are done in the NY Mteropolitan area, unless one opts for cabs and Uber/Lyft.
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No reason to complain? How about that LIRR peak service from Jamaica to NYP is scheduled to take 19 minutes, while the E train is scheduled at around 40 minutes? And that 40 minutes will be in a noisy subway car with limited hard seating, rather than a comfy M9 seat with electrical outlets ?

And again, the 7 train is packed to the gills during peak hours. I don't have experience with the E train, but I would guess it's not much better by the time it approaches Manhattan.
 
joelkfla said:
No reason to complain? How about that LIRR peak service from Jamaica to NYP is scheduled to take 19 minutes, while the E train is scheduled at around 40 minutes? And that 40 minutes will be in a noisy subway car with limited hard seating, rather than a comfy M9 seat with electrical outlets ?

And again, the 7 train is packed to the gills during peak hours. I don't have experience with the E train, but I would guess it's not much better by the time it approaches Manhattan.
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Don't underestimate "Cadillac commuting," as the experience of Brightline's success with Miami - West Pam Beach shows. Also, I myself often used to commute on Amtrak between Baltimore and Washington. despite having perfectly good MARC service.
 
JamesWhitcombRiley said:
People want to go to Penn Station.
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The only people who "want to go to Penn Station" are those catching another train there or going to an event at Madison Square Garden. Anyone else is actually going somewhere else in NYC. Perhaps the key is to figure out where people's endpoints are and have stations that serve those locations better either directly or via subway connections.
 
AmtrakMaineiac said:
The only people who "want to go to Penn Station" are those catching another train there or going to an event at Madison Square Garden. Anyone else is actually going somewhere else in NYC. Perhaps the key is to figure out where people's endpoints are and have stations that serve those locations better either directly or via subway connections.
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This is exactly the principle that I have been trying to articulate, but you said it better than I.
 
AmtrakMaineiac said:
The only people who "want to go to Penn Station" are those catching another train there or going to an event at Madison Square Garden. Anyone else is actually going somewhere else in NYC. Perhaps the key is to figure out where people's endpoints are and have stations that serve those locations better either directly or via subway connections.
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I don't think that's a fair statement. NYP is less than half a mile from the Empire State Building, which is over 90% occupied. It's about 3/4 mi. from Hudson Yards. While this study seems to show that the densest Midtown office area is slightly north of NYP, much of it is within a 1 mile walk, and the rest is mostly one or two subway stops away.

It would be interesting, though, to see a distribution of how LI commuters get to offices in the Financial District. Are they transferring at NYP, at Atlantic Terminal in Brooklyn, or some other route?
 

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