Coastal Route On East Coast

[FriskyFL]

The Florida East Coast Railroad runs parallel to US 1 which is about 15 miles west of the ocean. Florida Highway A1A follows the ocean and has views of the ocean. Henry Flagler built the FEC west of the ocean because of the potential of hurricanes.

Or, in the case of the Overseas Extension to Key West, OVER the ocean. Even though the trains stopped running in 1935, much of the extraordinary engineering remains to this day.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I don't see how the LSL's route actually goes along Lake Erie.

Only in spots, but look out of the train west of Cleveland, west of Sandusky, or while passing through Silver Creek NY.

Don't forget the brief sightings of Lake Michiganin as the LSL chugs along through the steel mills, casinos and urban blight that line the Indiana Shore on the way into Chicago!

 

[xyzzy]

Two reasons why there is relatively little railroading right along the Atlantic coast of the Carolinas and Georgia: the railroads knew about hurricanes, and much of the land along the coast is swampy... factors when the railroads were laid out 150 years ago, and still true today.

Wilmington, Charleston and Savannah are served by railroad, of course, because they were important port cities when the railroads were built.

 

[andersone]

Visit the beaches of West Virginia - enjoy the New River Gorge on the Cardinal

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Visit the beaches of West Virginia - enjoy the New River Gorge on the Cardinal

Yes, sir!

 

[battalion51]

While the Crescent doesn't have a tremendous amount of time adjacent to water, it probably beats Silver Service. The trek across Lake Pontchartrain is 5.8 miles of non-stop water views (coincidentally the longest rail bridge in the US). The Crescent also picks up some good views of the Delaware River between Wilmington and Philly, as well as the Potomac views between Alexandria and Washington.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

While the Crescent doesn't have a tremendous amount of time adjacent to water, it probably beats Silver Service. The trek across Lake Pontchartrain is 5.8 miles of non-stop water views (coincidentally the longest rail bridge in the US). The Crescent also picks up some good views of the Delaware River between Wilmington and Philly, as well as the Potomac views between Alexandria and Washington.

Yeah, but the section between Slidell and Washington is nothing but trees, trees, kudzu, more trees, and more kudzu. There are scenic points, but nothing like the Card, LSL, or CL.

Or for day trains, you've got your Pennsy, Vermonter, Adirondack, Downeaster......

 

[railiner]

Most of the railroads crossing the Appalachian's run in many river valley's for a good portion of their routes. The CZ follows the Colorado River for a couple of hundred miles.

The Pioneer used to give a nice view of the Columbia, as the Portland section of the EB does on the opposite side for a while....The old Mountaineer gave a nice view of the tugboat and barge busy Ohio....The ride up the Hudson and the Mohawk valleys is beautiful, too....

Even the Long Island RR with all its routes has very limited water views. Neither does the North Jersey Coast Line......

 

[Green Maned Lion]

There are plenty of nice views on the Coast Line. The Montauk branch is spectacular east of the Hamptons.

 

[jis]

There are plenty of nice views on the Coast Line. The Montauk branch is spectacular east of the Hamptons.

I agree on both.

On NJCL first there is the Raritan River Bridge. Then a section between South Amboy and Morgan Draw is along the Raritan Bay. After that there are many bridges, including some moving with good views of river estuaries, and sea in the distance in some cases. Major bridges are Navesink (Red Bank), Shark (Belmar) and Manasquan (Manasquan),and of course many branches of the Shrewsbury River between Red Bank and Little Silver. Given how short the overall length of the line is, that is a heck of a lot of sea and estuary views.

The best water views on the Montauk branch are all at its east end beyond Speonk. The first major water view is just past Hampton Bays where it crosses the Intercoastal Waterway canal. The best and longest continuous view is of Napeague Bay between Amagansett and Montauk. The amount of water view on this line is much less than on the NJCL

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

This shot of the NJCL is nice: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=473797&nseq=181.

 

[George Harris]

Keep in mind that the closer you are to the ocean, the more estuaries, salt marshes, deltas, rivers, etc. This is all VERY expensive for the railroad companies to build on (and not much benefit outside of port towns). So, regrettably, the views are few and far between.

And expensive to maintain. Which is why after the ACL+SAL merger Savannah to Jacksonville trains moved to the more inland ACL line instead of the slightly shorter but closer to the coast SAL line. That the ACL was mostly double track and the SAL single track also played a big part in the decision.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Keep in mind that the closer you are to the ocean, the more estuaries, salt marshes, deltas, rivers, etc. This is all VERY expensive for the railroad companies to build on (and not much benefit outside of port towns). So, regrettably, the views are few and far between.

And expensive to maintain. Which is why after the ACL+SAL merger Savannah to Jacksonville trains moved to the more inland ACL line instead of the slightly shorter but closer to the coast SAL line. That the ACL was mostly double track and the SAL single track also played a big part in the decision.

Why was the ACL so keen on expanding capacity?

 

[George Harris]

Keep in mind that the closer you are to the ocean, the more estuaries, salt marshes, deltas, rivers, etc. This is all VERY expensive for the railroad companies to build on (and not much benefit outside of port towns). So, regrettably, the views are few and far between.

And expensive to maintain. Which is why after the ACL+SAL merger Savannah to Jacksonville trains moved to the more inland ACL line instead of the slightly shorter but closer to the coast SAL line. That the ACL was mostly double track and the SAL single track also played a big part in the decision.

Why was the ACL so keen on expanding capacity?

Don't understand your question.

Pre merger both Atlantic Coast Line and Seaboard Air Line had a main track between Richmond VA and Jacksonville FL. In general the ACL main was shorter and faster and mostly double track Savannah to Jessup and Folkston to Jacksonville. The SAL main line was mostly single track. South of Petersburg VA the next common point was Savannah GA. After merger the SAL main between Savannah and Jacsonville ceased to be a main line and was for the most part abandoned. Effectively this was a reduction in capacity. Quite a few years after that, Into the "Family Lines" days, if not into the CSX days the ACL main was turned into single track with long passing tracks north of Jessup, again somewhat of a reduction in capacity.

If you are talking about the merger itself, that was not for the purpose of increasing capacity but of absorbing competition to be followed by eliminating duplicate facilities and parallel lines, in some cases with the "parallel" being a major stretch on the definition of the word.

 

[jis]

Hey there are some very nice views of the St. Johns River from the Silvers and Autotrain in Florida!

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Keep in mind that the closer you are to the ocean, the more estuaries, salt marshes, deltas, rivers, etc. This is all VERY expensive for the railroad companies to build on (and not much benefit outside of port towns). So, regrettably, the views are few and far between.

And expensive to maintain. Which is why after the ACL+SAL merger Savannah to Jacksonville trains moved to the more inland ACL line instead of the slightly shorter but closer to the coast SAL line. That the ACL was mostly double track and the SAL single track also played a big part in the decision.

Why was the ACL so keen on expanding capacity?

Don't understand your question.
Pre merger both Atlantic Coast Line and Seaboard Air Line had a main track between Richmond VA and Jacksonville FL. In general the ACL main was shorter and faster and mostly double track Savannah to Jessup and Folkston to Jacksonville. The SAL main line was mostly single track. South of Petersburg VA the next common point was Savannah GA. After merger the SAL main between Savannah and Jacsonville ceased to be a main line and was for the most part abandoned. Effectively this was a reduction in capacity. Quite a few years after that, Into the "Family Lines" days, if not into the CSX days the ACL main was turned into single track with long passing tracks north of Jessup, again somewhat of a reduction in capacity.

If you are talking about the merger itself, that was not for the purpose of increasing capacity but of absorbing competition to be followed by eliminating duplicate facilities and parallel lines, in some cases with the "parallel" being a major stretch on the definition of the word.

But why did the ACL have double track while the SAL didn't?

 

[haolerider]

It's easy to go to the shore from numerous stops on several trains. You could . . .

. . . take the Palmetto to Florence to drive to Myrtle Beach, the Redneck Riviera

That's the "Northern Atlantic branch", LOL. Down in this neck of the woods,

the Redneck Riviera means the soft, white sand beaches of the Florida panhandle

and west to Gulf Shores, AL, which are all on the Gulf of Mexico. And nowhere

ear the Palmetto's route, unfortunately.

I've visited both the Northern Atlantic branch and the Gulf Coast branchand liked them both.

Highway 90 along the Mississippi Gulf shore is really extraordinary, with

the sandy beach and Gulf waters on one side and houses and businesses

on the inland side.

Touring the Jefferson Davis Home the guide told us that the beach had been

created when the Army Corps of Engineers pumped sand from offshore.

I probably didn't make friends when I piped up, federal spending on things

like that can make our lives better. No one disagreed, and no one agreed,

at least, not out loud. LOL.

Quick comment on the Jefferson Davis home.....I spent an entire day on a volunteer project to clear debris from the lawn around the home and library, that had been deposited there by Katrina. I was amazed at what ad come out of the water! Rusted pieces of metal, anchors, all sorts of bricks and masonry, etc. by the end of the day, 25 of us had cleared the property and had aches and pains in places we had never thought of! At that time, the home was still boarded up and had not been touched.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Keep in mind that the closer you are to the ocean, the more estuaries, salt marshes, deltas, rivers, etc. This is all VERY expensive for the railroad companies to build on (and not much benefit outside of port towns). So, regrettably, the views are few and far between.

And expensive to maintain. Which is why after the ACL+SAL merger Savannah to Jacksonville trains moved to the more inland ACL line instead of the slightly shorter but closer to the coast SAL line. That the ACL was mostly double track and the SAL single track also played a big part in the decision.

Why was the ACL so keen on expanding capacity?

Don't understand your question.
Pre merger both Atlantic Coast Line and Seaboard Air Line had a main track between Richmond VA and Jacksonville FL. In general the ACL main was shorter and faster and mostly double track Savannah to Jessup and Folkston to Jacksonville. The SAL main line was mostly single track. South of Petersburg VA the next common point was Savannah GA. After merger the SAL main between Savannah and Jacsonville ceased to be a main line and was for the most part abandoned. Effectively this was a reduction in capacity. Quite a few years after that, Into the "Family Lines" days, if not into the CSX days the ACL main was turned into single track with long passing tracks north of Jessup, again somewhat of a reduction in capacity.

If you are talking about the merger itself, that was not for the purpose of increasing capacity but of absorbing competition to be followed by eliminating duplicate facilities and parallel lines, in some cases with the "parallel" being a major stretch on the definition of the word.

But why did the ACL have double track while the SAL didn't?

They made different choices on how to allocate precious resources.

 

[xyzzy]

The ACL was fabulously profitable all along, as were the railroads that it owned most of (the L&N, Clinchfield, Georgia/A&WP/WofA, etc). Traffic on the ACL justified double-tracking almost the entire main line in the Roaring Twenties. The ACL and its subsidiaries got through the Great Depression. In contrast the SAL didn't really come together as a system until 1915, and then it went bankrupt in 1930. Only the heavy traffic created by World War II saved the SAL -- for a while. But by the late 1950s it was clear that the SAL simply could not compete with the larger and wealthier ACL and Southern, despite the glitter attributed to the SAL's top passenger trains. The only question was who would pick up the pieces, and the ACL did. To call the SCL a merger of two railroads is not really telling the truth. It was a takeover in every practical sense.

Of the SAL as it existed in 1967, much has been abandoned entirely or sold off to short lines. Only a small number of segments really matter to CSX today... Atlanta-Hamlet, Jacksonville-Tampa, Garysburg-Portsmouth, and a few others.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I thought the SAL had better sleeper trains originally, while the ACL ran the all-coach Champion. I didn't know the ACL basically ate the SAL.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

It did. And then it burped mightily.

 

[George Harris]

Passenger trains were glamor. The profit has always been in the freight. All of the Jacksonville to Miami SAL main is being used by the combined system. but West Palm Beach to Miami has been sold off to the state for the commuter service. The reason for this is that ACL had no Jacksonville to Miami line. Its through trains ran on the Florida East Coast.

SAL was the second player to the table so it essentially got the leftovers.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Passenger trains were glamor. The profit has always been in the freight. All of the Jacksonville to Miami SAL main is being used by the combined system. but West Palm Beach to Miami has been sold off to the state for the commuter service. The reason for this is that ACL had no Jacksonville to Miami line. Its through trains ran on the Florida East Coast.

SAL was the second player to the table so it essentially got the leftovers.

But wouldn't that through route to Miami have been a big advantage and allowed the SAL to expand freight service and resist the ACL takeover? I thought Miami and Key West were big port cities.

 

[railiner]

When the FEC went on the violent strike in 1963, how did the ACL convince the rival SAL to handle its passenger trains between Auburndale and Miami? I read that they two roads first proposed merging in 1958, so perhaps they were already cooperating until the eventual merger in 1967? Or perhaps the ICC ordered them to, in the interest of public safety, (look at the warnings the FEC posted on their timetable between 1965 and the end of their passenger service in 1968....http://www.getcruising.com/cgi/museum.cgi?img=fec65tt2.jpg&class=fec

 

[neroden]

Passenger trains were glamor. The profit has always been in the freight.

While this is generally true, I have to say that someone pulled out 19th century profit-and-loss statements to prove to me that there were counterexamples; lines which made better profits off passenger transportation than off freight. This continued until the car-crazy 1920s. But it only happened on routes of high population (there are several intercity examples in the UK, some in the Northeast US, some around Chicago, others around the world, and then there were the urban systems).
Perhaps more relevant to the ACL vs. SAL issue: lines which stop at every city along the way usually do much better than direct express "bypass" lines, even when the latter are faster. This is true for both freight and passenger traffic. The ACL had routes which hit most of the cities of the time; the SAL had the faster routes which bypassed them (with a couple of exceptions like Raleigh and Tampa), which is worse.

SAL was the second player to the table so it essentially got the leftovers.

Indeed.