Amfleet I Replacement

[PVD]

Absolutely, because Amfleet replacement does not mean replacement Amfleets. Aside from profile, there are major improvements that have been made in many areas which will be included in any new design. Obvious short list: LED lighting, better controllability, maintainability, and environmental friendliness of HVAC, built in Wi-Fi, and electrical outlets as original(not add on) equipment. There will be many more. The PRIIA 305 Committee issued a single level car standard, anything new is likely to be built off of this, maybe some tweaks over time (it is almost 5 years old already) but Amfleet design concepts are pushing 50.

 

[Fan Railer]

Likely not shared here, but: http://www.highspeed-rail.org/Documents/PRIIA%20305%20DocSpec%20and%20other%20NGEC%20Documents/PRIIA%20Single%20Level%20Spec%20305%20003%20Approved%20Initial%20Release.pdf

Scroll to page 214 for the car design diagrams.

 

[Anderson]

With potentially such a large order of coaches in the future, I wonder if Amtrak would go with a joint venture (so perhaps a company such as CAF builds the long distance Amfleets and Alstom builds the inter-city Amfleets) or if Amtrak would ask one company to manufacture possibly 700 coaches!

In the Fleet Plan document some years back, they went into detail about the plan to replace the whole batch in one order, taking 100 coaches a year for six or seven years (More if they started to expand with new routes).

The problem is, how to pay for them? Even if Amtrak-friendly Members controlled the House and Senate, they could vote plenty money to Amtrak for two years. Then another election and things could change again. ;-( So the manufacturer would know that because politics, he might not get paid for the whole order of 6 or 7 years of cars, but only for two. It's hard to get a bargain bid buying only 200 cars over two years, and then starting over with a new Congress and new bids.

I could see CAF building more Viewliner II sleepers, bag dorms, baggage cars, and maybe even diners (if Amtrak started adding routes). But after losing $42 million so far on this contract, I'd be very surprised if they made a strong bid to build coaches.

Meanwhile you return to the notion of joint bids as if it were some kinky sex. I do not expect any joint bids here. No.

Note that what you're referring to is a delivery schedule. I don't think, for example, that (presuming they can manage delivery) N-S is worried about getting paid at the moment. What would happen is that you'd get a large one-shot appropriation for up to, say, $1.5bn that's good until a given date or until exhausted for those cars and the contract would be signed. Unless the contract ran over (which would be another issue in and of itself and would probably be due to unrealistic expectations on the appropriators' part) there wouldn't be a need for further action on the part of the appropriators.

And...CAF is losing money because, IIRC, CAF is bumbling in the dark and had a lousy handle on what was needed.

 

[jis]

A more likely scenario is that only part of the fund needed would be appropriated in the first year to get the ball rolling with an order for X units and Y options with some time limit on the options freezing the price for the option units over that period. Then hopefully additional funding will get appropriated or sourced from elsewhere over time to exercise those options over a period of time. That is what the steady stream of 50 to 100 car orders is all about.

But, as far as Amfleet I's go, what I am hearing is that they will go for another rebuild. Amtrak will try to beat VIA in longevity of Budd cars.

 

[Andrew]

Wouldn't it be interesting for Amtrak to choose Alstom for their new Acela Trains--and Alstom for their Amfleet replacement?

 

[Anderson]

A more likely scenario is that only part of the fund needed would be appropriated in the first year to get the ball rolling with an order for X units and Y options with some time limit on the options freezing the price for the option units over that period. Then hopefully additional funding will get appropriated or sourced from elsewhere over time to exercise those options over a period of time. That is what the steady stream of 50 to 100 car orders is all about.

But, as far as Amfleet I's go, what I am hearing is that they will go for another rebuild. Amtrak will try to beat VIA in longevity of Budd cars.

Oh, I have little doubt that Amtrak will give them a run for their money...though reading through TAC's report from last year made me cringe at the LRC rebuild project. If nothing else, the Amfleets will likely have a long future in various state services even if Amtrak manages to overhaul everything on the NEC "proper". I'd take an even-money LongNow bet that the Amfleets will outlive me in at least seasonal use.

Edit: On the basis of the Viewliner I fiasco (the 1990s one, not the CAF situation), I suspect that when the RFI goes out a number of manufacturers will be inclined to respond to the effect either "We want the first 2-3 years' orders guaranteed if you don't want us to charge you an arm and a leg" or "Fine, but we want a deposit on those options as well that you don't get back if you don't follow through". Nobody wants to bid on the basis of 600 cars and only get an order of 50...

 

[CSXfoamer1997]

It's not only the Amfleet I's that need to go. The Amfleet II's also need to go. They should perhaps replace them with Viewliner II coaches and lounge cars. And also, are there any plans to make any Viewliners designed for regional service, such as the Northeast Regionals or the Downeasters?

 

[PVD]

To politely summarize all of the previous discussion, the most current Amtrak long range fleet plan has Amfleet 2 being replaced before Amfleet 1. Viewliner Coaches and lounges don't exist, except in speculation. Whatever single level cars are ultimately purchased will likely be flatter sided with a profile resembling one of the more modern car designs out there, but not necessarily that of the VL. There was a PRIIA committee convened (Amtrak was a major player) to draw up single level car specs, it includes mention of the various different types of cars needed for both LD and regional services. It is a few years old now, but is broadly written to allow for updates and slight differences in utilization between carriers, as may be practical. Unless someone sees giant piles of money drop from the sky, we are very likely to see another Amfleet and Horizon rebuild before replacement. It would have been nice to have the cars displaced by the arrival of the N-S bilevels as a cushion to start that with, but don't hold your breath on that one.

 

[CSXfoamer1997]

To politely summarize all of the previous discussion, the most current Amtrak long range fleet plan has Amfleet 2 being replaced before Amfleet 1. Viewliner Coaches and lounges don't exist, except in speculation. Whatever single level cars are ultimately purchased will likely be flatter sided with a profile resembling one of the more modern car designs out there, but not necessarily that of the VL. There was a PRIIA committee convened (Amtrak was a major player) to draw up single level car specs, it includes mention of the various different types of cars needed for both LD and regional services. It is a few years old now, but is broadly written to allow for updates and slight differences in utilization between carriers, as may be practical. Unless someone sees giant piles of money drop from the sky, we are very likely to see another Amfleet and Horizon rebuild before replacement. It would have been nice to have the cars displaced by the arrival of the N-S bilevels as a cushion to start that with, but don't hold your breath on that one.

Yeah. I read it. The Amfleet II's are supposed to go and then the Amfleet I's. The II's are obviously younger than the I's, but had more mileage. With them having more mileage, that would probably mean more wear and tear.

And I think, in theory, if we created Viewliner II coaches and lounges, that would eliminate wheel noise. The Viewliners have the GSI 70 Trucks, whereas the Amfleets have the Budd Pioneer Trucks. The noise from the Amfleets when moving is the flange squeal. And the way I hear them when they pass, the Viewliner trucks are not nearly as noisy as the Amfleet trucks.

In fact, speaking of LD and Regional, I think Viewliners should be purchased for Long-Distance trains, and Viaggios for Regional Service.

 

[PVD]

Anything built today is going to have a truck that is in production today. Budd and GSI are both long gone.

 

[R30A]

Are there passenger car trucks "in production" today at all? Seems to me like everything is being made to order...

 

[CSXfoamer1997]

Anything built today is going to have a truck that is in production today. Budd and GSI are both long gone.

I thought GSI trucks were still being built today. The Viewliner II's are currently being built and the trucks looked brand-spankin' new.

 

[keelhauled]

Viewliner II trucks I believe are being built by Columbus Castings. The design may well be a derivative of GSI's, I don't know where those designs ended up after GSI closed. Ironically, Columbus Castings is now in danger of closing in the near future as well.

 

[PVD]

Columbus is part of its parent companies' bankruptcy, I believe it is on a temporary shutdown while it is being sold. Not totally sure. I think they are also doing quite a bit of the N-S car work as well as Hyundai-Rotem for Septa as well as the aforementioned V2s..

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Columbus is part of its parent companies' bankruptcy, I believe it is on a temporary shutdown while it is being sold. Not totally sure. I think they are also doing quite a bit of the N-S car work as well as Hyundai-Rotem for Septa as well as the aforementioned V2s..

That would be why CAF complained that among its several problems, it had to restructure payments to prop up an important supplier at risk of going away?

 

[jis]

That is a pretty dire situation for an industry I'd say. When technology is imported into India for establishing local manufacturing of stuff using it, the entire kit and cabootle is put under the same roof in the factory based on the new technology. So it includes trucks and suspension fabrication, possibly from parts purchased from outside, or possibly manufactured in house, depending. But I guess when you order stream is guaranteed to be a thousand or more units per year, year in and year out for maybe a decade, that makes a huge difference.

 

[Andrew]

So do you folks think that Amfleet I and Amfleet 2 would be separate orders or one massive order?

 

[A Voice]

So do you folks think that Amfleet I and Amfleet 2 would be separate orders or one massive order?

Under currently published plans, the Amfleet II cars are scheduled to be replaced first (higher mileage).

 

[west point]

Andrew---- once again it will not be a new order for Amfleets. The first order no matter what builder will be for additional cars mostly coaches. They will probably have the profile of Viewliner cars. Speculation and the Amtrak fleet plan will probably have these cars at first added to LD trains and then some Amfleet-2s re assigned to run corridor trains probably NEC,

As for number of cars ordered it will depend on the will of congress and / or if any private source for construction becomes available.

The fleet plan calls for 100 cars a year thru 2028 but of course depends on how many cars can be ordered. Would expect that the most cars Amtrak can enter iinto service would be 100 single level and 100 bi-level per year. That is 16 cars a month.

 

[Andrew]

Andrew---- once again it will not be a new order for Amfleets. The first order no matter what builder will be for additional cars mostly coaches. They will probably have the profile of Viewliner cars. Speculation and the Amtrak fleet plan will probably have these cars at first added to LD trains and then some Amfleet-2s re assigned to run corridor trains probably NEC,

As for number of cars ordered it will depend on the will of congress and / or if any private source for construction becomes available.

The fleet plan calls for 100 cars a year thru 2028 but of course depends on how many cars can be ordered. Would expect that the most cars Amtrak can enter iinto service would be 100 single level and 100 bi-level per year. That is 16 cars a month.

I wonder when Amtrak would likely order more coaches--and which company would get the contract for the new coaches.