Amfleet I Replacement

[jis]

There is no official notice. There are the regulations in place in CFR

Go and read 49 CFR Subtitle B Chapter II Part 238 Subpart C Section 238.203. The requirement has been loosened a lot and much greater leeway has been given to FRA to evaluate non-standard crash energy management systems to certify them compliant. IIt looks like the collision post requirements have also been revised, but I am not quite sure what the net effect is on car weight. I am told that it is easier to meet these requirements with smaller modification to off the shelf European designs.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

In response to the previous post, you may want to look at this. Don't want to take this off topic, but it is true about off-the-shelf stuff.

https://nextcity.org/daily/entry/modern-european-train-designs-american-tracks-2015-fra

Long Barred from American Tracks, European Train Designs Could Get Rolling by 2015

By Stephen J. Smith | October 31, 2013

“It’ll take a while to get the [new] regulations in place,” said Robert Lauby, associate administrator for railroad safety and chief safety officer at the FRA. The new rules have already been drafted and now await approval from various federal agencies, followed by a period of public review. ... Lauby suggested that the new rules should clear the final hurdles sometime in 2015."

It's a good article from NEXT CITY but it's stale, almost two years old.

So I'm still wondering if there's an official notice yet.

I posted that to show the changes have been talked about for some time now.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

In response to the previous post, you may want to look at this. Don't want to take this off topic, but it is true about off-the-shelf stuff.

https://nextcity.org/daily/entry/modern-european-train-designs-american-tracks-2015-fra

Long Barred from American Tracks, European Train Designs Could Get Rolling by 2015

By Stephen J. Smith | October 31, 2013

“It’ll take a while to get the [new] regulations in place,” said Robert Lauby, associate administrator for railroad safety and chief safety officer at the FRA. ... Lauby suggested that the new rules should clear the final hurdles sometime in 2015."

...

So I'm still wondering if there's an official notice yet.

I posted that to show the changes have been talked about for some time now.

Yes, that was clear. And the article, especially the paragraph that I pasted in here, was VERY well sourced. You did fine. Don't worry about it.

 

[Acela2172]

One thing Amtrak could do if Congress wont allow the funding to replace the entire amfleet I fleet at once is purchase new equipment to replace a 10th of the fleet from different purchases until they are all replaced and then replace the cars more frequently. The commuter rails replace their rolling stock more frequently then Amtrak. And the commuter rails are state owned as Amtrak is federal owned. And it is too bad the Acela LRC passenger cars do not have the stow away stepwells because they would make for good usage on the NEC. Maybe with ACS64s. Except they would need a cab car for the Keystone.

 

[neroden]

With the new Crash Energy Management regulation, something interesting happens: there's a strong motivation to have vestibules on both ends of any new cars, so that the CEM can be used rather than stupid plain weight. Otherwise the end without a vestibule still has to be built stupidly heavy.

As a result the Amfleet II and Amfleet I replacements will probably be nearly identical, with vestibules on both ends, and the only difference being in the seating. This does make it easier to make an order big enough to get decent pricing, while spreading it out over several years to keep production lines open, while also having enough volume per year to make it worthwhile for the carbuilder -- they've got 618 to replace, plus any wanted for expansion, and that doesn't include cab cars. (It does include cafes, and I really hope they go for double windows and glasstops... because why not? Should increase revenue.)

 

[PVD]

Well said. In addition, incorporating modern modular interior fit out methods might allow the opportunity to create legit business class cars at a reasonable cost, Most of us seem to like the club-dinette seating on many single level trains, but perhaps something a bit larger in capacity, like a half regular car maybe with a few workstation /table spots might sell well (in and out of Albany comes to mind). Certainly the Am-1 BC cars on the NER are nothing special.

 

[jis]

If Amtrak is hell bent on using the Viewliner design for everything then perhaps the new CEM regulations are not of huge relevance to them, since the Viewliner design adequately addresses the energy absorption issues in compliance with pre-CEM regulations anyway. What the new regulations allow is buying stuff like Siemens Viaggio off the shelf more or less. However, if the car designed by the committee in the US does not permit such for use in the Amtrak system, as those cars are probably different, then it is not clear if Amtrak would ever acquire new CEM cars. I don't know how specific the committee car design is and how married Amtrak is to the Viewliner design. Maybe I am just worrying about a nonexistent issue.

 

[Andrew]

If Amtrak is hell bent on using the Viewliner design for everything then perhaps the new CEM regulations are not of huge relevance to them, since the Viewliner design adequately addresses the energy absorption issues in compliance with pre-CEM regulations anyway. What the new regulations allow is buying stuff like Siemens Viaggio off the shelf more or less. However, if the car designed by the committee in the US does not permit such for use in the Amtrak system, as those cars are probably different, then it is not clear if Amtrak would ever acquire new CEM cars. I don't know how specific the committee car design is and how married Amtrak is to the Viewliner design. Maybe I am just worrying about a nonexistent issue.

So maybe a Siemens Viaggio will be the Amfleet replacement at some point?

 

[Eric S]

Or some other coach design that doesn't exist yet.

 

[jis]

Well, I would modify my statement a bit to say that it is almost certain that the Acela II cars will use the new CEM standards. What will happen with the replacement for Tier I cars? Who knows? But Eric may be right. Or it could be some design that is broadly deployed all over the world, just to keep costs down.

 

[Acela2172]

I doubt the Amfleet design will continue on the Amfleet replacements. Its too bad they didn't purchase additional single level Cars around the time the Acela Rolling stock was built. The LRCs would make good cars on the NEC and Keystone Corridor except with the stow away stairwells in the doors and possibly even the door that slides into the panels instead of the parallelogram opening. Or one thing they can do to save money is even piggyback off of Via Rails Renaissance cars except for the luggage rack configuration. And the double vestibules. As well as the seats. Although I believe the company who made the Renaissance car went out of business. So who knows. I wouldn't be surprised if they were the shape of the new Viewliners except the height of the typical passenger rail car.

 

[jis]

There was nothing to piggyback off of Renaissance Cars. The Renaissance cars were originally built for Nightstar service through the Channel Tunnel, derived from the Met-Cam built Mark IV cars used on the ECML. When that scheme fell through they became surplus and VIA acquired them for a bargain, and modified them for use in Canada. The manufacturer of Renaissance Cars is Metro-Cammell, which was by then a subsidiary of Alstom and they are very much in business, though they do not manufacture anything at Washwood Heath anymore. The last rolling stock to be manufactured there were the British tilting Pendolinos for the modernization of WCML.The Renaissance Cars in their present configuration are not even FRA regulations compliant, so they cannot operate in the US without a very significant waiver.

 

[Acela2172]

I have noticed lately in the US a lot of single level passenger railcars are shaped kind of like the Viewliners so most likely I wouldn't be surprised if the Amfleet replacements were shaped like the Viewliners except not as tall as the Viewliners.

 

[jis]

There are at present exactly 123 cars in general circulation in the US shaped like Viewliners. Some more will join the Viewliner fleet over the next year or two. What else is shaped like a Viewliner. The Acela cars are basically shaped more like LRCs, which is their antecedent and has the bulge like them. What else looks even remotely like a Viewliner?

 

[Acela2172]

I have noticed that many rail cars have the side walls shaped similar to those on the LRC Viewliner and even the M7 and M8. And even the Silverliner V. I don't think new single level railcars are available in flat sides like the Comet railcar. And the Amfleet design is from the 70s and even the 80s. I think depending on who the manufacturer is may have to do with how its designed.

 

[Eric S]

There was nothing to piggyback off of Renaissance Cars. The Renaissance cars were originally built for Nightstar service through the Channel Tunnel, derived from the Met-Cam built Mark IV cars used on the ECML. When that scheme fell through they became surplus and VIA acquired them for a bargain, and modified them for use in Canada. The manufacturer of Renaissance Cars is Metro-Cammell, which was by then a subsidiary of Alstom and they are very much in business, though they do not manufacture anything at Washwood Heath anymore. The last rolling stock to be manufactured there were the British tilting Pendolinos for the modernization of WCML.The Renaissance Cars in their present configuration are not even FRA regulations compliant, so they cannot operate in the US without a very significant waiver.

Didn't the Renaissance cars require some significant modifications to meet Transport Canada (correct agency?) regulations? I seem to recall there was a rather long delay in them entering service for VIA, but perhaps I'm mistaken as to the reasons for that delay.

(Not to suggest that because they were modified to meet Canadian regulations that they could be modified to meet American regulations - in fact just agreeing with you and noting that they were not able to be used "off-the-shelf/boat" in Canada.)

 

[jis]

Yes they did, Eric. but as you surmised Canadian and FRA regulations differ in many ways that allows some things to happen in Canada that would not work "out of the box" in FRA jurisdiction without specific waivers. One of them is mixing Renaissance stock with FRA stock. Canadians allowed it with a buffer car. It is possible that FRA would allow such too, but it will require a specific waiver. Also the new modified Tier I rules may make that easier too.

Though part of the delay was because what VIA acquired was only half finished too. Almost half of the group was acquired as just completed car shells that needed completion of the rest of the car too.

 

[Acela2172]

I think designs like the LRC or even the design like the M7 or even the Silverliner V would make good amfleet replacements. Of course in push pull with end vestibules. As Amtrak is non EMU like the M7 and Silverliner are and only commuter rails use the center vestibules.

 

[west point]

Repeating. Do not expect Amfleet - 1s to be replaced any time soon. It will be the -2s replaced first. Why you ask ? -2s have 1.4 to 1.6 times the average mileage of -1s. Some even higher. See Amtrak fleet strategy plan and FY 2016 budget request. Amtrak's plan has been to replace AMFLEET-2s on LD trains with V-2 coaches and lounges. That of course is subject to available funds which who knows when they will become available.

With V-2 replacements some of the AMFLEET-2s can then be repurposed to cover low mileage SD routes that need more equipment but also the NEC since they perform well on the NEC.

 

[Acela2172]

If Amtrak plans to replace the Amfleet 2s first they should also look into adding on for the Amfleet Is that were retired due to major structural damage. As we don't want to the situation of having a shortage in cars and overcrowding. But luckily the Amfleets are push pull and not EMU. Metro Norths M2s were built around the same time as the Amfleet Is and they replaced them as they were run down. Smelly restrooms and even overcrowding due to many cars constantly being out for repair on the New Haven Line. But the M2s were EMU and the Amfleets are push pull so there is no issue of motor malfunctions on the Amfeets.

The Amfleet Is are still in good condition. I don't know how they are mechanically but I know riding them they are in good condition. If they feel they cant replace them but want to update they can send them for a complete overhaul like PATCO did with their rolling stock.

 

[neroden]

I have noticed that many rail cars have the side walls shaped similar to those on the LRC Viewliner and even the M7 and M8. And even the Silverliner V. I don't think new single level railcars are available in flat sides like the Comet railcar. And the Amfleet design is from the 70s and even the 80s. I think depending on who the manufacturer is may have to do with how its designed.

The Viewliner sidewalls maximize internal space while still clearing all the restricted-loading-gauge tunnels (Park Avenue, North River, etc.) So it's practical to use it. I am glad that that profile is being used. (I notice that the M7s and M8s on Metro-North and LIRR have a similar profile.) A straight-side railcar would be fine too, and only lose a little space.

For a new build, nobody's going to use the Amcan design which wastes a lot of space in a bizarre attempt to mimic airplane body styling.

 

[PVD]

One of those "era" things. Big tailfins on cars, oranges and yellow kitchen stuff, sea green telephones, don't see that stuff anymore (museums notwithstanding). Couldn't get parts for those phones after the fad passed, but I had customers that wouldn't say good bye. Ugh.

 

[Andrew]

With potentially such a large order of coaches in the future, I wonder if Amtrak would go with a joint venture (so perhaps a company such as CAF builds the long distance Amfleets and Alstom builds the inter-city Amfleets) or if Amtrak would ask one company to manufacture possibly 700 coaches!

 

[WoodyinNYC]

With potentially such a large order of coaches in the future, I wonder if Amtrak would go with a joint venture (so perhaps a company such as CAF builds the long distance Amfleets and Alstom builds the inter-city Amfleets) or if Amtrak would ask one company to manufacture possibly 700 coaches!

In the Fleet Plan document some years back, they went into detail about the plan to replace the whole batch in one order, taking 100 coaches a year for six or seven years (More if they started to expand with new routes).

The problem is, how to pay for them? Even if Amtrak-friendly Members controlled the House and Senate, they could vote plenty money to Amtrak for two years. Then another election and things could change again. ;-( So the manufacturer would know that because politics, he might not get paid for the whole order of 6 or 7 years of cars, but only for two. It's hard to get a bargain bid buying only 200 cars over two years, and then starting over with a new Congress and new bids.

I could see CAF building more Viewliner II sleepers, bag dorms, baggage cars, and maybe even diners (if Amtrak started adding routes). But after losing $42 million so far on this contract, I'd be very surprised if they made a strong bid to build coaches.

Meanwhile you return to the notion of joint bids as if it were some kinky sex. I do not expect any joint bids here. No.

 

[west point]

Woody --- Amtrak's latest budget request still shows 100 single level cars a year for about 6 years starting in 2019. ( see Amtrak reports - budget request - about page 22 ? ) . Note to Andrew the same report does not call the replacements Amfleet. No matter who builds the next gen coaches they are probably going to meet the outside profile of CAF's Viewliners.