agr tightens up on allowed routings for redemptions

[Ispolkom]

Now they base these things on how many Zones you travel through and if you cross back into a Zone, it counts again.

No, if you have a routing that starts in a zone goes to another, and then crosses back into the first zone, that routing is "circular" and not eligible for one AGR award. Mind you, I've booked KCY-LAX-PDX-MOT as a 2-zone award, but I got a stern talking to when it was discovered.

 

[William W.]

Now they base these things on how many Zones you travel through and if you cross back into a Zone, it counts again.

No, if you have a routing that starts in a zone goes to another, and then crosses back into the first zone, that routing is "circular" and not eligible for one AGR award. Mind you, I've booked KCY-LAX-PDX-MOT as a 2-zone award, but I got a stern talking to when it was discovered.

A "stern" talking to? That's great customer service...

If the agent broke policy, it is he/she that should receive a "talking to."

 

[crescent2]

Zone A-Zone B-Zone A is not always forbidden on a two-zone award, if that's the only way you can get there on Amtrak's routing. I just completed an award trip going ATN (Alabama)-WAS-CHI and then the return, CHI-CVS-ATN. (Central-Eastern-Central in each award) No problems at all, because that's the only way to get from Anniston, AL, to Chicago according to Amtrak's website. Strangely, ATN-NOL-CHI (a one-zone routing) was the routing that was not allowed, I suppose because of the overnight layover on the passenger's dime in NOL. That layover is less than 24 hours, but it's still not an allowed routing for AGR.

Not pertinent to the above trip, but ATL can be in either the Central or Eastern zone. I thought AGR might tell me I had to start in ATL, but they didn't. Said starting in Anniston was perfectly OK on the 2-zone award.

 

[Ispolkom]

Zone A-Zone B-Zone A is not always forbidden on a two-zone award, if that's the only way you can get there on Amtrak's routing.

That's not what the rules as written say:

• Circle trips are not permitted using a single redemption. A circle trip is a travel itinerary comprised of a series of segments that exit, and later re-enter, the same zone.

  I have no doubt that you were able to book your travel, just as I was able to book mine. That doesn't mean that the next agent who looks at your itinerary would not claim that your trip was illegal, just as I got a stern talking to.
  

Even written down, AGR redemption rules mean what the agent you're talking to think they mean, and they mean that only for as long as that agent is on the telephone. There might be more consistency now. I leave that to others with greater experience to judge.

 

[the_traveler]

Yes and no.

A "circle trip" is a reason to go to another zone (say PDX) just to get somewhere. So KCY to CHI via PDX is a circle trip. But the only way to go from ATL or BHM to the west coast (without an overnight in NOL and the 3 day a week SL) is via WAS, so this is an exception to the circle trip rule.

 

[Ispolkom]

Yes and no.

A "circle trip" is a reason to go to another zone (say PDX) just to get somewhere. So KCY to CHI via PDX is a circle trip. But the only way to go from ATL or BHM to the west coast (without an overnight in NOL and the 3 day a week SL) is via WAS, so this is an exception to the circle trip rule.

Where do you get that from the rules as written? Why was I told that my routings (KCY-LAX-PDX-MOT) was illegal?

 

[Ryan]

It's not in the rules as written.

Because KCY-MOT isn't a published routing. I can understand AGR wanting to be firm on the rules in the case of an unpublished routing. Doubly so when there's a significantly shorter routing that isn't a circle trip.

ATN-CHI has one published routing. An exception to the circle trip rules makes sense here, since that's the only published route.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I never really enjoyed the magic 8-ball that preceded Anthony and find the current rules much more predictable. I'm not a good bullshitter so I'd rather everything be on the up-and-up from the start. The only major issue I have at the moment is the lack of permitted stopovers in combination with Amtrak's horrible schedule keeping. Either adjust the schedule to allow more time, improve the timing as currently scheduled, or allow us to schedule our own stopovers at legal connecting points so we don't get burned.

 

[Railroad Bill]

Still trying to figure out how I can book a trip from Schriever, LA to Detroit, or Milwaukee on a one zone award, but cannot do one to Toledo.

I have asked for a clarification but get no response, other than the computer says no.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Still trying to figure out how I can book a trip from Schriever, LA to Detroit, or Milwaukee on a one zone award, but cannot do one to Toledo.

I have asked for a clarification but get no response, other than the computer says no.

Have you tried talking to Anthony aka AGR Insider on Flyertalk?

 

[Ryan]

It appears as though the connection from the Texas Eagle to the Cap or LSL aren't in the system.

That is something that Anthony should be able to fix (more correctly "ask Operations to fix and hope they do so").

 

[William W.]

I'm just glad that we don't have to deal with this:

http://www.delta.com/content/dam/delta-www/skymiles/2015-program/2015SMP-award.pdf

 

[the_traveler]

I do. I'd love to travel on Amtrak from the US to Europe!

 

[Ispolkom]

It's not in the rules as written.

Because KCY-MOT isn't a published routing. I can understand AGR wanting to be firm on the rules in the case of an unpublished routing. Doubly so when there's a significantly shorter routing that isn't a circle trip.

ATN-CHI has one published routing. An exception to the circle trip rules makes sense here, since that's the only published route.

If it's not in the rules as written, how do you know what you write is true? I'm not even sure that "true" is the right word, since I'm not sure it matters what the correct answer is. Rather, it only matters what the AGR agent on the phone will do. We all know that different agents claim different things, and I do not see how you or I can credit one claim (the one crescent2 got) as correct, and another (the one I received) as incorrect.

In any case, KCY-MOT was a published route when I booked it, and it was a published route when I was told it was illegal. It only isn't a published route now because Amtrak broke the Portland connection when it changed the Empire Builder schedule. It's exactly the same situation as crescent2's (the only published route was a circle trip), but I got a very different response.

 

[the_traveler]

Anthony had SPECIFICALLY used the PDX example when he was describing a circle trip! You can't get much more official than that in AGR!

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Anthony had SPECIFICALLY used the PDX example when he was describing a circle trip! You can't get much more official than that in AGR!

Is it SPECIFICALLY written into the rules or are we back to the magic eight ball every time we call?

 

[Ispolkom]

Anthony had SPECIFICALLY used the PDX example when he was describing a circle trip! You can't get much more official than that in AGR!

But what's the difference? Crescent2 goes from Central Zone to Eastern Zone to Central Zone on a published route because you can't have an overnight layover in New Orleans. I go from Central Zone to Western Zone to Central Zone on a published route because you can't have an overnight layover in Chicago. The two cases seem identical to me. The fact that Anthony said that the KCY-CBS routing was not bookable applies to the first case just as well as it does to the second.

 

[Railroad Bill]

It appears as though the connection from the Texas Eagle to the Cap or LSL aren't in the system.

That is something that Anthony should be able to fix (more correctly "ask Operations to fix and hope they do so").

I sent a request to AGR Insider last winter, but as of yesterday no changes had been made.. :unsure:

 

[crescent2]

It's not in the rules as written.

Because KCY-MOT isn't a published routing. I can understand AGR wanting to be firm on the rules in the case of an unpublished routing. Doubly so when there's a significantly shorter routing that isn't a circle trip.

ATN-CHI has one published routing. An exception to the circle trip rules makes sense here, since that's the only published route.

If it's not in the rules as written, how do you know what you write is true? I'm not even sure that "true" is the right word, since I'm not sure it matters what the correct answer is. Rather, it only matters what the AGR agent on the phone will do. We all know that different agents claim different things, and I do not see how you or I can credit one claim (the one crescent2 got) as correct, and another (the one I received) as incorrect.

In any case, KCY-MOT was a published route when I booked it, and it was a published route when I was told it was illegal. It only isn't a published route now because Amtrak broke the Portland connection when it changed the Empire Builder schedule. It's exactly the same situation as crescent2's (the only published route was a circle trip), but I got a very different response.

Isp, I'm not familiar with your routing, but if it's exactly the same situation as mine, I don't see how they could refuse it.

Our routing was a published one.

The thing with my trip is, if they didn't allow that routing, we couldn't have gone at all. The NOL routing isn't allowed, so if our routing wasn't allowed either, it really would have turned into a true "you can't get there from here" scenario. I just can't imagine they'd refuse to book it, or require a three-zone award when ATN and CHI are both in the same zone. This is not something the passenger can avoid or has any choice about.

I have no way of knowing for sure, but I don't think I got an uninformed agent. I even asked, "Is starting in Anniston OK?" I would think, since it's the only way to get "from here to there," that it is officially allowed. We weren't re-entering a zone by choice just to get more train time as some circle trips are; it's the only way to get there (other than the forbidden NOL routing, which would really make more sense imo except possibly for the overnight layover.)

I know what the rules say, but I just don't see anything unusual about our routing being allowed. What would the alternative be? Just my thoughts on the experience.

 

[Ryan]

I didn't know that KCY-MOT used to be published.

If it was published at the time you booked it, and it had been removed when you were "sternly talked to", that makes perfect sense.

 

[jebr]

Anthony had SPECIFICALLY used the PDX example when he was describing a circle trip! You can't get much more official than that in AGR!

I thought it was the KCY - CBS via PDX that was the example. That doesn't disqualify every routing through PDX. (In fact, Anthony has specifically said that if a connection to the Builder was guaranteed before the schedule change, it's still bookable as a single reward with an overnight in PDX at the customer's expense.)

 

[jebr]

I didn't know that KCY-MOT used to be published.

If it was published at the time you booked it, and it had been removed when you were "sternly talked to", that makes perfect sense.

It was only removed because all connections from the CS to the Builder were broken. If that connection being broken was the problem, it should have been that an overnight is required, not that it's not valid.

 

[Ispolkom]

The thing with my trip is, if they didn't allow that routing, we couldn't have gone at all. The NOL routing isn't allowed, so if our routing wasn't allowed either, it really would have turned into a true "you can't get there from here" scenario. I just can't imagine they'd refuse to book it, or require a three-zone award when ATN and CHI are both in the same zone. This is not something the passenger can avoid or has any choice about.

I have no way of knowing for sure, but I don't think I got an uninformed agent. I even asked, "Is starting in Anniston OK?" I would think, since it's the only way to get "from here to there," that it is officially allowed. We weren't re-entering a zone by choice just to get more train time as some circle trips are; it's the only way to get there (other than the forbidden NOL routing, which would really make more sense imo except possibly for the overnight layover.)

I know what the rules say, but I just don't see anything unusual about our routing being allowed. What would the alternative be? Just my thoughts on the experience.

I'm not in any way implying or suggesting that you did anything wrong or underhanded, and I apologize abjectly if I gave that impression. I think that the agent made a reasonable accommodation, given the skeletal nature of the Amtrak network.

I get a little hot under the collar, though, when I

1) am given a rule that circular routes are forbidden,

2) am told by AGR Insider: "Circle trip rule stands as written. . . . going from central zone to western zone, then back to central zone, cannot be done on the same redemption,"

3) have an agent tell me that such a routing I did book was illegal and

4) find that, well, circular routes aren't always forbidden.

I preferred it when AGR up front about being arbitrary and capricious.

I thought it was the KCY - CBS via PDX that was the example. That doesn't disqualify every routing through PDX. (In fact, Anthony has specifically said that if a connection to the Builder was guaranteed before the schedule change, it's still bookable as a single reward with an overnight in PDX at the customer's expense.)

Actually, it was an attempt to book a trip from Minot to Denver with the PDX overnight that led to my stern talking to. Don't ask me why they looked through my upcoming reservations while denying that a) MOT-PDX-SAC-DEN was ever published (this, while DEN-SAC-PDX-MOT was still a published route), and b) that the PDX overnight was even allowed.

I gave up and flew on Frontier, which now goes direct from Minot to Denver. I'm sorry I bothered arguing with the agent and her supervisor about the PDX overnight. In the end I didn't get my trip to Denver, I expect complications with my November trip from Kansas City, and I'm sure there is a nastygram now attached to my account which will make future AGR redemptions interesting. I should have known better.

 

[Ryan]

Well that is a load of crap, since DEN is a border city the circle rule doesn't have anything to do with it. It's a 2 zone award, Central to Western.

As far as the EB to CS connection not being published, that shouldn't matter. Anthony has given explicit guidance that overnights coming off of the Empire Builder are allowed.

 

[jebr]

I thought it was the KCY - CBS via PDX that was the example. That doesn't disqualify every routing through PDX. (In fact, Anthony has specifically said that if a connection to the Builder was guaranteed before the schedule change, it's still bookable as a single reward with an overnight in PDX at the customer's expense.)

Actually, it was an attempt to book a trip from Minot to Denver with the PDX overnight that led to my stern talking to. Don't ask me why they looked through my upcoming reservations while denying that a) MOT-PDX-SAC-DEN was ever published (this, while DEN-SAC-PDX-MOT was still a published route), and b) that the PDX overnight was even allowed.

I gave up and flew on Frontier, which now goes direct from Minot to Denver. I'm sorry I bothered arguing with the agent and her supervisor about the PDX overnight. In the end I didn't get my trip to Denver, I expect complications with my November trip from Kansas City, and I'm sure there is a nastygram now attached to my account which will make future AGR redemptions interesting. I should have known better.

Sorry, I meant the example that Anthony gave as a "forbidden circle trip" was KCY - CBS via PDX, not your specific trip.

But yes, MOT - DEN should be allowed. That's central to western, for one, and is available with the PDX overnight on your dime.