Dead Man Law

[gswager]

I'm wondering what's the average hours working on long distance trains for those crews. Just wondering to know how many hours left for them if the train is late.

How many maximum working hours for each engineer, engineer & fireman, and conductor are allowed?

 

[Save Our Trains Michigan]

the Law is 12 max engineers work 6hrs or less due to if the run time is more then 6hrs they have to put a 2nd engineer in the cab.Conductors can work to there 12hr limit on some LD trains.But most of the time it is 8hrs or less.

 

[Midland Valley]

There have been several times of the SWC where the crew has gone dead in the middle of nowhere and a crew had to be transported in from Galesburg. We left Chicago extremely late on the CZ one night (due to switches being froze) and finally left US and went almost to Naperville when the train stopped, backed up and waited antoher hour and a half for a new crew. If they have that much time and they know a crew will go dead, why in heaven's name don't they take that crew off and put a new one on in Chicago before the train leaves?

 

[MrFSS]

If the crew is able to sleep on the train for 8 hours, can they then go another 12?

 

[AlanB]

There have been several times of the SWC where the crew has gone dead in the middle of nowhere and a crew had to be transported in from Galesburg. We left Chicago extremely late on the CZ one night (due to switches being froze) and finally left US and went almost to Naperville when the train stopped, backed up and waited antoher hour and a half for a new crew. If they have that much time and they know a crew will go dead, why in heaven's name don't they take that crew off and put a new one on in Chicago before the train leaves?

Because Amtrak doesn't just have a spare crew sitting around. In fact, if they are just sitting around, then they are already on the clock, so they'd outlaw too. And if you call in a crew from home, then you may be short a crew for a train the next day. You also can't call in someone who hasn't gotten the required amount of rest.

It's a very delicately balanced system. And having to cut costs means cutting the number of people working for you, so that makes it even harder. It's hard to find someone who just sits at home, hoping that maybe once a week, he gets called into work. Most people need a far more steady pay check.

 

[AlanB]

I've never seen a crew sleep on a train. Don't know if that's a union thing or an FRA rule.

However in theory, yes, once they've rested for 8 hours, they could go back on duty for another 12.

 

[MrFSS]

I've never seen a crew sleep on a train. Don't know if that's a union thing or an FRA rule.

On my EB trip last year we had the same dining car crew and sleeping car crew for three days and two nights. They had to sleep somewhere - in the dorm car?
On the Cardinal trip, same thing, same crew all the way.

Now, the conductors changed and I assume the engineers did, too, if that is what we're calling crew.

I didn't interact with the latter group as I did the sleeper and diner crews, so don't know how it works for them.

 

[Save Our Trains Michigan]

I've never seen a crew sleep on a train. Don't know if that's a union thing or an FRA rule.
However in theory, yes, once they've rested for 8 hours, they could go back on duty for another 12.

Alan under FRA rules if you were to stay on the train it would be a deadhead.In order to get rested you need to be ether at home or in a motel just not on a train.

 

[AlanB]

I've never seen a crew sleep on a train. Don't know if that's a union thing or an FRA rule.

On my EB trip last year we had the same dining car crew and sleeping car crew for three days and two nights. They had to sleep somewhere - in the dorm car?
On the Cardinal trip, same thing, same crew all the way.

Now, the conductors changed and I assume the engineers did, too, if that is what we're calling crew.

I didn't interact with the latter group as I did the sleeper and diner crews, so don't know how it works for them.

The onboard service crew, which comprise waiters, cooks, car attendants, cafe attendants, do sleep and stay on board the train in the crew dorm.

The operating crew, which is what we've been discussing here, is comprised of the engineer(s) and the conductors. They are the ones subject to the FRA rules for maximum work hours.

 

[AlanB]

I've never seen a crew sleep on a train.  Don't know if that's a union thing or an FRA rule.
However in theory, yes, once they've rested for 8 hours, they could go back on duty for another 12.

Alan under FRA rules if you were to stay on the train it would be a deadhead.In order to get rested you need to be ether at home or in a motel just not on a train.

Thanks Matt for confirming that. I knew that they couldn't do it, I just wasn't sure if it was FRA regs or a union thing.

 

[MrFSS]

The onboard service crew, which comprise waiters, cooks, car attendants, cafe attendants, do sleep and stay on board the train in the crew dorm.
The operating crew, which is what we've been discussing here, is comprised of the engineer(s) and the conductors. They are the ones subject to the FRA rules for maximum work hours.

I continue to learn from this forum. Thanks!!!

 

[battalion51]

I've never seen a crew sleep on a train.  Don't know if that's a union thing or an FRA rule.
However in theory, yes, once they've rested for 8 hours, they could go back on duty for another 12.

Alan under FRA rules if you were to stay on the train it would be a deadhead.In order to get rested you need to be ether at home or in a motel just not on a train.

That needs to be qualified, if you are deadheading TO a job that counts towards the hours of service law, if you are deadheading FROM a job it does not count towards hours of service. The exception to this is if you take the train to work. For example, Amtrak Engineer lives in Stamford, he "deadheads" to New York to work, no hours of service since he isn't being paid, and its not part of the job assignment.

Also to qualify on the Engineer rule, there must be an Assistant Engineer, more popularly known as a Fireman, when the Engineer is to work more than six hours without changing trains or 10 hours when he changes trains.

 

[AlanB]

Also to qualify on the Engineer rule, there must be an Assistant Engineer, more popularly known as a Fireman, when the Engineer is to work more than six hours without changing trains or 10 hours when he changes trains.

Is the fireman there just in case the engineer overheats and bursts into flames from all that extra work. :lol:

 

[Midland Valley]

IT just seems to me that it would make sense for the law to allow for a crew who had reached their 12 hour limit to proceed on to a point where they could rendezvous with a fresh crew, instead of just sitting tying up track and time. I know the freight crews are shipped all over in vans to meet up with or get picked up out in the country. I know I would not want to just sit somewhere and waste time waiting, especially knowing there are probably 180+ passengers behind me getting frustrated and not having a clue as to why the train isn't moving.

 

[AlanB]

IT just seems to me that it would make sense for the law to allow for a crew who had reached their 12 hour limit to proceed on to a point where they could rendezvous with a fresh crew, instead of just sitting tying up track and time. I know the freight crews are shipped all over in vans to meet up with or get picked up out in the country. I know I would not want to just sit somewhere and waste time waiting, especially knowing there are probably 180+ passengers behind me getting frustrated and not having a clue as to why the train isn't moving.

Who ever said that laws make sense? Did you know that it's illegal to tie an alligator to a fire hydrant in the State of Michiagan? I don't know that anyone's ever seen an alligator in Michigan, much less that they'd be so inclined as to tie one to a fire hydrant.

Yes there probably should be some flexibility in the law. On the other hand, if an engineer ran a red signal while over his 12 hours and god forbid killed someone, then everyone would use that as the reason.

The real problem isn't necessarily the 12 hour rule, it's how the freight companies schedule their crews in the first place. Many engineer's never know when they'll work next. Plus that 8 hours rest doesn't really mean that they are resting. Forget about the fact that they may have to eat, deal with family stuff and so on for a minute. A person could go home an fall right to sleep. Six hours later, he/she could be woken by the ringing phone telling them that they have to show up for work in two hours. So instead of 8 hours sleep, they only got 6.

Yes this problem happens more in the freight world, than it might in the Amtrak world, but Amtrak is still subject to the same rest laws that in theory were supposed to ensure that no one ever gets too tired on the job and falls asleep.

 

[battalion51]

Really if the crew knows they're going to die they should be tying up in a spot where it's easy for a crew to access them. They also should already have a crew enroute if they're going to die.

 

[Save Our Trains Michigan]

This is how a deadhead would be for me exsample let's say i was in the motel in NOL and they called me to go back to Lafayette on the train as a deadhead which i get paied for i go on the clock.When you deadhead that means your on the clock from whatever RR you work for but if you do it on your own time then no time is going against you.But if the RR is paying any sort of money to you it will be a DEADHEAD which you go on the clock.