Brightline Trains Florida discussion

[johnny.menhennet]

22/day for the Surfliner, practically, but the fact that the first run to SLO does not originate in San Diego throws the number off, making it 23 because rather than a SAN-SLO run, it's a LAX-SLO and SAN-LAX, even though they don't connect.

 

[Anderson]

22/day for the Surfliner, practically, but the fact that the first run to SLO does not originate in San Diego throws the number off, making it 23 because rather than a SAN-SLO run, it's a LAX-SLO and SAN-LAX, even though they don't connect.

Alright...so at a full run of trains, the FEC service alone has the potential to easily meet (or even beat) this number...and that's before any Amtrak trains get involved. I'd add that if this is successful, even modest service up to JAX plus Amtrak splitting both Silvers at JAX (something that I think will very likely follow once one gets split...if anything, I think you'll see a serious thinning-out of demand south of Orlando/Tampa on the A-line Silvers with FEC service plus an FEC-line option to Miami from points north) could quite plausibly put the FEC right behind NYP-BOS service in terms of frequencies.

Assuming 12/day in each direction (running total: 24), probably a low projection, plus 1/day each way off of the Silver Star (RT: 26) and the mooted Florida FEC corridor train (RT: 28), you'd be most of the way there. If the FEC flogs their trains for all they're worth and runs a steady stream of departures each way from 5 AM-7/8 PM, you could easily get to 15/day FEC (RT: 30) plus the two other operations (RT: 34). Add in a split off of the Meteor and any separate Jacksonville service and you're going to pass the NEC-north at a trot.

So with a successful operation on the FEC, you're probably looking at a total in the upper 20s in terms of trains on the low end, and in the upper 30s on the high end.

 

[afigg]

Assuming 12/day in each direction (running total: 24), probably a low projection, plus 1/day each way off of the Silver Star (RT: 26) and the mooted Florida FEC corridor train (RT: 28), you'd be most of the way there. If the FEC flogs their trains for all they're worth and runs a steady stream of departures each way from 5 AM-7/8 PM, you could easily get to 15/day FEC (RT: 30) plus the two other operations (RT: 34). Add in a split off of the Meteor and any separate Jacksonville service and you're going to pass the NEC-north at a trot.

I don't know if the FEC would start running trains as early as 5 AM. The primary customers on this route would presumably be vacationers/tourists going to/from the resorts in Orlando and those attending conventions. Not going to see many of the business travelers we get on the NEC who want to be in NYC or DC by 9 AM. Trivial item, but I would figure a 6 AM start for an hourly schedule.

Ok, just to ballpark possible total passenger numbers for kicks. If the FEC runs a 15 hourly trains a day from 6 AM to 9 PM departures with 400 seats per train, that is 6,000 seats each day each way. I don't know what sort of daily and seasonal traffic pattern variations they would get from Miami to Orlando. Busier on Fridays and Sundays I would guess, but probably lower in the middle of the week (unlike the NEC)? Anyway, just for the sake of argument, let's say the FEC service is successful and they reach a 55% average load factor over the course of the year and they run 15 round-trips every day (even Saturdays). So the math is 15 x 2 x 400 seats x 365 days x 0.55 load factor = 2.4 million annual passengers. That would be pretty good revenue at, say, $80 for an average ticket of $192 million.

 

[Anderson]

First of all, let me start by saying that I don't have a problem with FEC having the ROW as long as passenger service is "there to stay" with decent frequencies. In all fairness, this will give CSX a competitor in the central Florida market (something that hasn't really been there since the SAL/ACL merger back in the 60s). Yeah, that's freight...but I think we've agreed several times over that freight is no small part of the reason that the FEC is pursuing this.

Also, I am going to take a stab that had the Orlampa project gone through, there's a chance that had phase two started up, FEC would have gotten involved, such is their entanglement in FL politics.

As to the trainsets...10 is what I think most of us figured would be needed a while back. My only qualm is the use of sets instead of cars...it's entirely an operational decision, but I just tend to think that having a bunch of cars that can be reassembled to meet demand shifts and/or not having to pile up mileage/wear and tear on the half-empty trains at the far ends of the schedule.

So the FEC is going to be in control of any HSR in the state. Honestly, that's not a bad thing. They seem to be a competent company and it's no worse than JR Central running the high-speed trains heading west out of Tokyo. Like I indicated before, I don't know that Amtrak was even going to get the operating contract here.

What IS important here is that a private company has seen fit to put a billion dollars into a new high-speed operation, presumably without the government chipping in directly. That says something big right there.

Mind you, I strongly support government involvement in transit plans and so forth...but I've also become sorely disenchanted with the burial-by-paperwork that federal plans recieve. To offer an example, had we been stuck with the federal high speed rail program for the Norfolk line, my understanding is that we'd have been lucky to get that in 20 years (if even then). Instead, the VA-NS initiative has gotten that wrapped up in the space of about three years. The detailed requirements for EISes and so forth to get federal funding (and the fact that the Feds are the 400-pound gorilla in terms of funding, meaning that it's not practical for a local, or even local-state, initiative to go anywhere without their support in most cases because...well, think about the relative burden put on the local tax base if the Feds aren't involved vs. if they are at an 80-20 Fed-Other match) have managed to smother a lot of transit projects, and the lack of programs at higher levels to secure operating subsidies on a longer-term basis have stopped others from even getting a serious proposal.

So I hope the FEC succeeds, if for no other reason than to humiliate the DOT. Yes, I know that some of this will break bad on Amtrak (which is always stuck under those requirements), but I'm at least hopeful that if a private company can do this well, it will be a much-needed slap in the face of the federal planning process.

Anderson? Twins sons from another-mutha? That's about the most PERFECT reply / response to the FEC and pax rail / HSR I've seen. Like you were reading my mind. Run for office will ya? Or better yet, run a large, profitable transportation company, and show the FEDS how to do HSR. Oh wait, you'll need political connections, so run for office, FIRST.

This is only a vaguely-related point, but I'm beginning to think that the answer is to leave federal funding in the mix but to emasculate the DOT, which is where a lot of the trouble on a number of transportation policies come from. Let them work out common railcar standards, sure, but beyond that sort of thing (which is really rather a non-binding "coordination" move), I'd like to see the DOT butt out of dealing with policies. A wonderful example here, honestly, is Miami...the city passed a tax hike and is clearly willing to commit to mass transit investments on their end, but they've been /badly/ stifled by an inability to get federal funding (when, quite frankly, that sort of commitment to a dedicated funding source for construction and operations should count for quite a bit more than it seems to).

Mind you, it's not just the railroad thing driving my opinions on this...some of the automobile standards legislation out there is absolutely inane (the effective ban on Mexibugs comes to mind, even though those cars are, as I understand it, materially no different than the older VW Bugs that were imported to the US en masse), and it's resulted in other "carry-over" stupidity (such as the fact that the DOD has to scrap a lot of military vehicles rather than pulling any weapons or sensitive computer parts off and selling them).

My point is that it's not just transit policy that the DOT (and, to be fair, a good bit of the enabling legislation...this is one place where I do absolutely have to give a good deal of discredit to Congress) has screwed the pooch on.

 

[Anderson]

Assuming 12/day in each direction (running total: 24), probably a low projection, plus 1/day each way off of the Silver Star (RT: 26) and the mooted Florida FEC corridor train (RT: 28), you'd be most of the way there. If the FEC flogs their trains for all they're worth and runs a steady stream of departures each way from 5 AM-7/8 PM, you could easily get to 15/day FEC (RT: 30) plus the two other operations (RT: 34). Add in a split off of the Meteor and any separate Jacksonville service and you're going to pass the NEC-north at a trot.

I don't know if the FEC would start running trains as early as 5 AM. The primary customers on this route would presumably be vacationers/tourists going to/from the resorts in Orlando and those attending conventions. Not going to see many of the business travelers we get on the NEC who want to be in NYC or DC by 9 AM. Trivial item, but I would figure a 6 AM start for an hourly schedule.

Ok, just to ballpark possible total passenger numbers for kicks. If the FEC runs a 15 hourly trains a day from 6 AM to 9 PM departures with 400 seats per train, that is 6,000 seats each day each way. I don't know what sort of daily and seasonal traffic pattern variations they would get from Miami to Orlando. Busier on Fridays and Sundays I would guess, but probably lower in the middle of the week (unlike the NEC)? Anyway, just for the sake of argument, let's say the FEC service is successful and they reach a 55% average load factor over the course of the year and they run 15 round-trips every day (even Saturdays). So the math is 15 x 2 x 400 seats x 365 days x 0.55 load factor = 2.4 million annual passengers. That would be pretty good revenue at, say, $80 for an average ticket of $192 million.

I think that sounds reasonable. Honestly, I think the flow will be more or less flat, aside from a "hard spike" on Fridays and a dip on Saturdays. Really, I think more of the traffic along the route is going to be business traffic than a lot of folks think...especially since I suspect this is going to "clear out" quite a bit of redundant airline service where a carrier hits more than one airport in a region (to the extent that it exists in South Florida or Central Florida). Especially if they eventually put in a Cocoa station (something which they seem open to and which might get "defaulted" onto the route once the Amtrak service gets started), even without a train to Jacksonville you're going to get a lot of folks driving to Cocoa and then grabbing the train so as to avoid traffic south of there. I-95 down there is not unlike I-5 south of LAX sometimes...the travel time may post as X, but good luck actually pulling that off outside of the middle of the night.

 

[afigg]

Additional information and details on the plans for the Cocoa to Orlando Airport route and some of the issues that the FEC will have to settle. August 31 article in the Orlando Sentinel titled Final 40 miles a problem for Miami-to-Orlando train builders. The FEC is looking for Orlando International Airport Authority to kick in a lot for the facilities and tracks at the airport. Some excerpts:

Politics appears to a big factor in why the FEC does want to build a station in Cocoa.

A stop for Cocoa also would be opposed by the Orlando-Orange County Expressway Authority, one of the four property owners in talks with All Aboard Florida. The others are the state, the airport and the Mormon Church.
The expressway authority owns much of the BeachLine Expressway, where the right of way is the most logical place for the train to lay tracks. The state also owns parts of the road.

A depot in Cocoa could end up costing the expressway money because it could siphon toll-paying motorists off the road and onto the train, said agency director Max Crumit. That likely would be a deal breaker between the authority and the train, he said.

"It would be a huge competitor," Crumit said.

Crumit has talked informally with All Aboard Florida officials and said they are seeking land for a "nominal amount," likely in the form of a long-term lease for a few dollars a year. Land is available, he said, south of the toll road.

I think the FEC would want to place the tracks mostly in the median of the toll road because that would save on elevated tracks flying over access and exit ramps.

OIA is being asked to help pay for a garage and depot for the train that would cost more than $210 million. About 80 percent of that would be for a 3,500-space garage. But who pays for what part of that bill has not been determined.
The airport also would be responsible for building a mile-long elevated monorail to serve the station at a cost of $181.4 million. Roads and other infrastructure costs of about $78 million would fall to OIA, too.

Ranch land long owned by the Mormons also could be needed to get the train on its final leg from the BeachLine to the airport. Ranch manager Erik Jacobsen said talks have been minimal so far.

 

[Anderson]

...ok, could someone explain why the Mormons would be opposed to the stop at Cocoa? I get the others, but that seems ridiculous (at least by comparison).

Also, as I've said before...a Cocoa stop seems inevitable if Jacksonville enters the equation. I wonder if the FEC could do the Cocoa stop but either agree to hike the price on Cocoa-Orlando tickets or make Cocoa-Orlando tickets unavailable (i.e. orient the Cocoa stop at north-south traffic)?

(And this is giving me yet another reason to hate highways)

 

[johnny.menhennet]

Assuming 12/day in each direction (running total: 24), probably a low projection, plus 1/day each way off of the Silver Star (RT: 26) and the mooted Florida FEC corridor train (RT: 28), you'd be most of the way there. If the FEC flogs their trains for all they're worth and runs a steady stream of departures each way from 5 AM-7/8 PM, you could easily get to 15/day FEC (RT: 30) plus the two other operations (RT: 34). Add in a split off of the Meteor and any separate Jacksonville service and you're going to pass the NEC-north at a trot.

I don't know if the FEC would start running trains as early as 5 AM. The primary customers on this route would presumably be vacationers/tourists going to/from the resorts in Orlando and those attending conventions. Not going to see many of the business travelers we get on the NEC who want to be in NYC or DC by 9 AM. Trivial item, but I would figure a 6 AM start for an hourly schedule.

Ok, just to ballpark possible total passenger numbers for kicks. If the FEC runs a 15 hourly trains a day from 6 AM to 9 PM departures with 400 seats per train, that is 6,000 seats each day each way. I don't know what sort of daily and seasonal traffic pattern variations they would get from Miami to Orlando. Busier on Fridays and Sundays I would guess, but probably lower in the middle of the week (unlike the NEC)? Anyway, just for the sake of argument, let's say the FEC service is successful and they reach a 55% average load factor over the course of the year and they run 15 round-trips every day (even Saturdays). So the math is 15 x 2 x 400 seats x 365 days x 0.55 load factor = 2.4 million annual passengers. That would be pretty good revenue at, say, $80 for an average ticket of $192 million.

Sorry to be nit-picky, but 15 trains would be 6A-8P.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

...ok, could someone explain why the Mormons would be opposed to the stop at Cocoa? I get the others, but that seems ridiculous (at least by comparison).

Also, as I've said before...a Cocoa stop seems inevitable if Jacksonville enters the equation. I wonder if the FEC could do the Cocoa stop but either agree to hike the price on Cocoa-Orlando tickets or make Cocoa-Orlando tickets unavailable (i.e. orient the Cocoa stop at north-south traffic)?

(And this is giving me yet another reason to hate highways)

I don't think the Mormons are opposed. The article simply states that they are one of the landowners AAF might need land from to build the Cocoa - Orlando section.

I think Cocoa customers are likely to get thrown under (into?) the bus in the short run. AAF wants the South Florida - Orlando traffic moving ASAP. Besides, once the line is built, THEN they could focus on a Cocoa station.

The Beachline is looking out for its own interests, and is one of the downsides when a public works project becomes its own entity. The creature now aspires to be its own keeper. This should be interesting as both AAF and the OOCEA have definate ideas and objectives in the negotiations.

 

[PRR 60]

...ok, could someone explain why the Mormons would be opposed to the stop at Cocoa? I get the others, but that seems ridiculous (at least by comparison).

Also, as I've said before...a Cocoa stop seems inevitable if Jacksonville enters the equation. I wonder if the FEC could do the Cocoa stop but either agree to hike the price on Cocoa-Orlando tickets or make Cocoa-Orlando tickets unavailable (i.e. orient the Cocoa stop at north-south traffic)?

(And this is giving me yet another reason to hate highways)

I'm not sure why a toll road authority wanting to be paid some measure of market value for property would make someone hate highways. The toll authority gets no tax subsidy and its primary source of revenue is tolls. The rail line is being built by a private, for profit corporation. The FEC will not just use the new tracks for the passenger service, but will use the tracks as a freight line to and from Orlando. The FEC has every expectation of making a profit from the new line. Why should they get a $1 per year deal from the toll authority for property central to their needs? Reverse the transaction and say the toll authority needed land from the FEC for a interchange. Would you expect the FEC to give the land away for free?

I don't see the toll authority as a major stumbling block. They will reach a deal after some behind closed doors give and take. Maybe a small chunk of each paid fare and each ton of freight revenue as a toll offset payment?

 

[MikefromCrete]

...ok, could someone explain why the Mormons would be opposed to the stop at Cocoa? I get the others, but that seems ridiculous (at least by comparison).

Also, as I've said before...a Cocoa stop seems inevitable if Jacksonville enters the equation. I wonder if the FEC could do the Cocoa stop but either agree to hike the price on Cocoa-Orlando tickets or make Cocoa-Orlando tickets unavailable (i.e. orient the Cocoa stop at north-south traffic)?

(And this is giving me yet another reason to hate highways)

I don't see that the Mormons are opposed or favor any particular stop. The church is a landowner along the route, that's all. It's the toll road authority that's opposed to losing revenue. FEC doesn't seem interested in a Cocoa stop. So there probably won't be a Cocoa stop, at least not now. If and when a Jacksonville-Miami service develops, then there could be a Cocoa stop. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

 

[Anderson]

...ok, could someone explain why the Mormons would be opposed to the stop at Cocoa? I get the others, but that seems ridiculous (at least by comparison).

Also, as I've said before...a Cocoa stop seems inevitable if Jacksonville enters the equation. I wonder if the FEC could do the Cocoa stop but either agree to hike the price on Cocoa-Orlando tickets or make Cocoa-Orlando tickets unavailable (i.e. orient the Cocoa stop at north-south traffic)?

(And this is giving me yet another reason to hate highways)

I'm not sure why a toll road authority wanting to be paid some measure of market value for property would make someone hate highways. The toll authority gets no tax subsidy and its primary source of revenue is tolls. The rail line is being built by a private, for profit corporation. The FEC will not just use the new tracks for the passenger service, but will use the tracks as a freight line to and from Orlando. The FEC has every expectation of making a profit from the new line. Why should they get a $1 per year deal from the toll authority for property central to their needs? Reverse the transaction and say the toll authority needed land from the FEC for a interchange. Would you expect the FEC to give the land away for free?

I don't see the toll authority as a major stumbling block. They will reach a deal after some behind closed doors give and take. Maybe a small chunk of each paid fare and each ton of freight revenue as a toll offset payment?

And right there you have the problem...the OOCEA is acting more or less as a private business in spite of more or less being government-owned. Look, if the OOCEA was a genuinely private corporation...well, I'd complain that Florida had gone insane in handing so much stuff over to a non-public entity, but the argument would be stronger. The problem is that, quite simply put, the OOCEA is a state entity. For all intents and purposes (corporate identity notwithstanding), the OOCEA is an arm of the Florida government. Moreover, in the case of the Beeline I would point out that they've had almost half a century of toll collection on the Beeline, and that the train isn't likely to wipe out demand there.

A second angle of this, of course, is that the FEC is taking over a project that the state dumped because of cost concerns (well, at least in theory...yes, I know the picture is far more tangled, but the state still dumped it). That also weighs in against the OOCEA getting involved...the state intended to use the land for a passenger rail project that someone else is taking over. Yes, there will be freight service as well...but again, I see that as a public good as well since it breaks the CSX monopoly in central FL and also potentially moves trucks off of the highways.

What do I think would be fair? A nominal cost lease, but with a covenant requiring:

1) The FEC to operate the passenger service as long as they hold the lease; and

2) A supplementary covenant saying that if they do somehow ditch the service (say, in bankruptcy), the state or its designee has the right to operate said service and is entitled to rights over anything and everything else on the line.

I say this because even though the FEC is operating the passenger service on a for-profit basis, I still see its operation as creating net good for the public.

 

[jis]

Have you guys been following the incredible amount of skepticism that is being expressed by many in Florida who are intimately familiar with the wheeling and dealings of FECI? Many of them believe that the primary purpose of this whole scheme is to make some specific set of land deals happen and once that is taken care of the rest of the project will disappear in a whiff of vapor like a south sea bubble. I have no way of knowing what to make of it, but there are a lot of people in Florida who seem to have an attitude of "Been there Seen that" about this whole thing, and will basically "believe it when an actual train runs, and not before that".

 

[Anderson]

Have you guys been following the incredible amount of skepticism that is being expressed by many in Florida who are intimately familiar with the wheeling and dealings of FECI? Many of them believe that the primary purpose of this whole scheme is to make some specific set of land deals happen and once that is taken care of the rest of the project will disappear in a whiff of vapor like a south sea bubble. I have no way of knowing what to make of it, but there are a lot of people in Florida who seem to have an attitude of "Been there Seen that" about this whole thing, and will basically "believe it when an actual train runs, and not before that".

I actually haven't been following that aspect (or indeed heard of it). With that said, this is why I'm looking at this from a perspective of "tie the land lease to the passenger trains". Under such a deal, fail to run the passenger trains (or, frankly, try to pull an Espee with them...I'd call that "bad faith") and lose the line.

 

[afigg]

Have you guys been following the incredible amount of skepticism that is being expressed by many in Florida who are intimately familiar with the wheeling and dealings of FECI? Many of them believe that the primary purpose of this whole scheme is to make some specific set of land deals happen and once that is taken care of the rest of the project will disappear in a whiff of vapor like a south sea bubble. I have no way of knowing what to make of it, but there are a lot of people in Florida who seem to have an attitude of "Been there Seen that" about this whole thing, and will basically "believe it when an actual train runs, and not before that".

I understand the skepticism. Much of it can likely be attributed to that it has been a long time since a privately owned freight railroad in the US has started a scheduled passenger train service (with multiple daily frequencies).

However, I don't see how the FECI can make much money from land deals on the land they currently own if they don't follow through with a passenger service. If FECI's real objective is to get 40 miles of ROW and tracks from Cocoa to Orlando for freight business and the plans for passenger service are nothing more than a smoke screen, unless the staffs and legal departments at Florida DOT and the toll road authority are totally incompetent, they will insert requirements into the ROW lease agreements for running passenger service over those tracks for X years or the ROW reverts back to the state. Of course, there could be a back room political deal at the top with the real goal of giving the ROW to FECI regardless of whether passenger service runs on it. But I doubt it. This is a passenger corridor service that can make a real profit.

Changing subjects a bit, a question occurred to me: because FECI will be building new stations, they will have to comply with the US DOT rules for level boarding platforms. Ok, so will the FECI go with high level platforms or 15" ATR platforms? Will they build pullover tracks at each station so they can maintain full freight clearance while installing 15" or 48" ATR platforms?

 

[Anderson]

Changing subjects a bit, a question occurred to me: because FECI will be building new stations, they will have to comply with the US DOT rules for level boarding platforms. Ok, so will the FECI go with high level platforms or 15" ATR platforms? Will they build pullover tracks at each station so they can maintain full freight clearance while installing 15" or 48" ATR platforms?

I expect that the passenger stations will have run-through tracks of some kind to allow either freight running if they have an extended passenger stop and/or to allow a potential skipped stop. As to platforms, I'm guessing 48" may win the day since they don't seem to be going with bilevels.

 

[jis]

Have you guys been following the incredible amount of skepticism that is being expressed by many in Florida who are intimately familiar with the wheeling and dealings of FECI? Many of them believe that the primary purpose of this whole scheme is to make some specific set of land deals happen and once that is taken care of the rest of the project will disappear in a whiff of vapor like a south sea bubble. I have no way of knowing what to make of it, but there are a lot of people in Florida who seem to have an attitude of "Been there Seen that" about this whole thing, and will basically "believe it when an actual train runs, and not before that".

I understand the skepticism. Much of it can likely be attributed to that it has been a long time since a privately owned freight railroad in the US has started a scheduled passenger train service (with multiple daily frequencies).

Actually reading the stuff I don't get that impression at all. Actually the skepticism is not focused on trains at all, but about the outfit keeping any promises. It is very specifically focused on FECI's past corporate behavior in general, one of promises made to the community and not kept, which did not have much to do with train service in the past. But again, I have no specific personal knowledge of any of this, only stuff that is being written in Blogs and such.

 

[Anderson]

Have you guys been following the incredible amount of skepticism that is being expressed by many in Florida who are intimately familiar with the wheeling and dealings of FECI? Many of them believe that the primary purpose of this whole scheme is to make some specific set of land deals happen and once that is taken care of the rest of the project will disappear in a whiff of vapor like a south sea bubble. I have no way of knowing what to make of it, but there are a lot of people in Florida who seem to have an attitude of "Been there Seen that" about this whole thing, and will basically "believe it when an actual train runs, and not before that".

I understand the skepticism. Much of it can likely be attributed to that it has been a long time since a privately owned freight railroad in the US has started a scheduled passenger train service (with multiple daily frequencies).

Actually reading the stuff I don't get that impression at all. Actually the skepticism is not focused on trains at all, but about the outfit keeping any promises. It is very specifically focused on FECI's past corporate behavior in general, one of promises made to the community and not kept, which did not have much to do with train service in the past. But again, I have no specific personal knowledge of any of this, only stuff that is being written in Blogs and such.

Could somebody link me to some of this skepticism?

 

[Brian_tampa]

1346894024[/url]' post='392083']

1346892468[/url]' post='392072']

1346886161[/url]' post='392037']

1346728167[/url]' post='391523']Have you guys been following the incredible amount of skepticism that is being expressed by many in Florida who are intimately familiar with the wheeling and dealings of FECI? Many of them believe that the primary purpose of this whole scheme is to make some specific set of land deals happen and once that is taken care of the rest of the project will disappear in a whiff of vapor like a south sea bubble. I have no way of knowing what to make of it, but there are a lot of people in Florida who seem to have an attitude of "Been there Seen that" about this whole thing, and will basically "believe it when an actual train runs, and not before that".

I understand the skepticism. Much of it can likely be attributed to that it has been a long time since a privately owned freight railroad in the US has started a scheduled passenger train service (with multiple daily frequencies).

Actually reading the stuff I don't get that impression at all. Actually the skepticism is not focused on trains at all, but about the outfit keeping any promises. It is very specifically focused on FECI's past corporate behavior in general, one of promises made to the community and not kept, which did not have much to do with train service in the past. But again, I have no specific personal knowledge of any of this, only stuff that is being written in Blogs and such.

Could somebody link me to some of this skepticism?

Well, I'm from Florida. Honestly I have not seen much skepticism here. If anything, the negative posts on logs and media websites have been from radical tea party anti-government types. The usual comment is "why are we spending tax dollars on a train". They really don't understand this is a privately financed project. I'm taking a neutral position. So far, this project appears to be real. Here in Florida, the Orlando and Miami media seem to support it. As the previous poster said "incredible amount of skepticism" "by many" in florida. I really must vigorously disagree with his statement. I just do not see it. Is he from Florida or looking on from afar?

 

[Anderson]

Have you guys been following the incredible amount of skepticism that is being expressed by many in Florida who are intimately familiar with the wheeling and dealings of FECI? Many of them believe that the primary purpose of this whole scheme is to make some specific set of land deals happen and once that is taken care of the rest of the project will disappear in a whiff of vapor like a south sea bubble. I have no way of knowing what to make of it, but there are a lot of people in Florida who seem to have an attitude of "Been there Seen that" about this whole thing, and will basically "believe it when an actual train runs, and not before that".

I understand the skepticism. Much of it can likely be attributed to that it has been a long time since a privately owned freight railroad in the US has started a scheduled passenger train service (with multiple daily frequencies).

Actually reading the stuff I don't get that impression at all. Actually the skepticism is not focused on trains at all, but about the outfit keeping any promises. It is very specifically focused on FECI's past corporate behavior in general, one of promises made to the community and not kept, which did not have much to do with train service in the past. But again, I have no specific personal knowledge of any of this, only stuff that is being written in Blogs and such.

Could somebody link me to some of this skepticism?

Well, I'm from Florida. Honestly I have not seen much skepticism here. If anything, the negative posts on logs and media websites have been from radical tea party anti-government types. The usual comment is "why are we spending tax dollars on a train". They really don't understand this is a privately financed project. I'm taking a neutral position. So far, this project appears to be real. Here in Florida, the Orlando and Miami media seem to support it. As the previous poster said "incredible amount of skepticism" "by many" in florida. I really must vigorously disagree with his statement. I just do not see it. Is he from Florida or looking on from afar?

Brian,

First and foremost, welcome aboard AU.

As to your point, I've even seen support from some Tea Party types for this because of its private sector nature, which while a bit surprising in some regards...let's just say that I think they're seeing something that fulfills a Randian fantasy of theirs.* Still, I can see where (between the general history of passenger rail over the last 40-50 years, the big Orlampa line kerfluffle, and the Amtrak FEC service plans) a casual observer could get a bit too much of their daily exercise leaping to conclusions.

*Explanation: The first section of Atlas Shrugged centers around a private company building a high-speed railroad line, and I suspect there are some more libertarian types that would see this as the living embodiment of that in some way.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Not sure if anyone is aware of this, but this is what I found. Apparently the fleet will consist of EMD F59PHIs and here is the shocker. These hi-level cars are Ex-ATSF and Amtrak Hi-levels. Not sure if this is what they will use, but 2014 is two years away still and things can change. Can't rule out they may purchase used cars.

http://ccrail.com/wp...ccrail.com_.pdf

 

[pennyk]

Not sure if anyone is aware of this, but this is what I found. Apparently the fleet will consist of EMD F59PHIs and new bi-level cars.

http://ccrail.com/wp...ccrail.com_.pdf

Thanks for posting. I had not seen it and it looks pretty nice. I cannot wait to ride the train (even though I really do not want to travel to South Florida - but I will).

 

[rrdude]

Damn, that's impressive! I see a lot of designs that harken back to different configs from different RR's. Lunch-Counter seating, seats facing each other with tables, lower level lounge.

These folks have done their homework!

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Damn, that's impressive! I see a lot of designs that harken back to different configs from different RR's. Lunch-Counter seating, seats facing each other with tables, lower level lounge.

These folks have done their homework!

The train also has a seating capacity of 398 passengers. So we can't rule out they will use these hi-levels. This is site this is on.

http://ccrail.com/

http://ccrail.com/hi-level-trains/

 

[MattW]

Wow, that does look impressive. I also really like the colors they've chosen!