Amtrak OTP with More Commuter Stations Coming On Line

[VentureForth]

As more and more communities begin to build localized commuter rail services in markets that Amtrak serves with its long distance trains, I get concerned yet optimistic about the future of Amtrak's OTP outside of the corridors.

Currently, Amtrak shares the ROW with various commuter railways, including SEPTA, VRE, Metra, Metrolink, NM Railrunner, Tri-Rail, etc.

I believe the way that the contracts read, the commuter trains are scheduled around Amtrak, and Amtrak gets priority on the rails so long as Amtrak remains ontime. If Amtrak runs late, the commuters will get priority to run on their schedule and they'll try to fit Amtrak in.

More commuter stations are being installed, ie: Sunrail.

I have found that during peak times, Amtrak has a LOT of difficulty at popular small stations boarding all the passengers efficiently. If Amtrak doesn't get a GOOD grip on this, they could find themselves getting kicked out of slots over and over again. Amtrak still runs on so much single track, it would be so easy to run late because of a particularly busy boarding station. I think they MUST improve this process.

One thing that I noticed when I rode the Palmetto from NYP recently was that they announced the track, I pounced to my train, boarded and the train started moving before I ever saw any crew member. That's how I rode trains in Japan (except that you were in a gated area before boarding the train). An announcement, 10 minutes, depart. Worry about the pax after they get on the train. This is probably fine for most NEC ops, but much more difficult to manage, I'm sure, at popular middle-of-the-night stations like Savannah that can see 100 people board or disembark at 1:30 AM.

I'm sure a lot of this could be handled with more people. Unfortunately, that's one of the greatest costs for Amtrak...

 

[zephyr17]

One thing I've gotten caught in more than once is if the eastbound Empire Builder is late coming out of Milwaukee on a weekday, it'll get stuck behind an inbound Metra making all the local stops from Lake Forest on. Since it is double track directional running (not two main track CTC), there's no way to get the Builder around it, so it just becomes later, as it stops or slows as the Metra train ahead stops at all the stations. This can be frustrating when making connections at CUS.

When its on the edge, there's been times I've been on it that the crew has announced at Milwaukee for folks to hurry up and get onboard, and specifically cite getting stuck behind a commuter train if we don't leave pronto.

I also understand that in southern california, Amtrak will often get stabbed by Metrolink (SCRRA) dispatchers during commuter hours.

 

[BCL]

Doesn't Amtrak own most of the Northeast Corridor?

As for the names mentioned, I'd also throw in Caltrain and Altamont Commuter Express, although the shared tracks are pretty short for these two.

 

[the_traveler]

Doesn't Amtrak own most of the Northeast Corridor?

Amtrak owns all of the NEC except New Rochelle to New Haven (MN) and Providence to Boston (MBTA).

 

[jis]

Currently, Amtrak shares the ROW with various commuter railways, including SEPTA, VRE, Metra, Metrolink, NM Railrunner, Tri-Rail, etc.

The situations are different from case to case.
SEPTA, VRE operate on Amtrak owned tracks, and not the other way round. METRA operates on a bit of Amtrak owned track, but mostly ony private railroad owned tracks. Amtrak operates on Metrolink and Tri-Rail owned tracks.

I believe the way that the contracts read, the commuter trains are scheduled around Amtrak, and Amtrak gets priority on the rails so long as Amtrak remains ontime. If Amtrak runs late, the commuters will get priority to run on their schedule and they'll try to fit Amtrak in.

This happens where the Commuter railroad does the dispatching. Where Amtrak does the dispatching they can be quite merciless in giving absolute priority to their trains.

So the situations vary.

More commuter stations are being installed, ie: Sunrail.

That will be another example of Amtrak running on a Commuter Railroad dispatched tracks.

I have found that during peak times, Amtrak has a LOT of difficulty at popular small stations boarding all the passengers efficiently. If Amtrak doesn't get a GOOD grip on this, they could find themselves getting kicked out of slots over and over again. Amtrak still runs on so much single track, it would be so easy to run late because of a particularly busy boarding station. I think they MUST improve this process.

First they will fix it with padding since it seemingly costs nothing. Only when it gets out of hand even with generous padding, they will think of doing something else.

Doesn't Amtrak own most of the Northeast Corridor?

Amtrak owns all of the NEC except New Rochelle to New Haven (MN) and Providence to Boston (MBTA).

New Rochelle to New Haven is owned by NY State and Conn State. MNRR is the operator, maintainer and dispatcher. Similarly I believe that Mass Border to Boston is owned by the Commonwealth of Massachusetts and dispatched and maintained by Amtrak.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Hiawathas and Empire Builder run on Metra-owned Milwaukee North District between north of Union Station and Rondout. Metra trains operating in and out of Union Station use Amtrak-owned tracks for a short while.

 

[afigg]

As more and more communities begin to build localized commuter rail services in markets that Amtrak serves with its long distance trains, I get concerned yet optimistic about the future of Amtrak's OTP outside of the corridors....

More commuter stations are being installed, ie: Sunrail.

I have found that during peak times, Amtrak has a LOT of difficulty at popular small stations boarding all the passengers efficiently. If Amtrak doesn't get a GOOD grip on this, they could find themselves getting kicked out of slots over and over again. Amtrak still runs on so much single track, it would be so easy to run late because of a particularly busy boarding station. I think they MUST improve this process.

I see your concern, but the net result is likely to be more capacity, better tracks, and OTP in some places, but Amtrak sometimes gets held up for commuter trains in others.
SunRail, for example, is upgrading the Amtrak stop stations (which were noted as being in poor condition in the Silver's part of the PIP report) and will fully double track 61 miles of the Silver's route. Once the track work is completed, will the double tracking, more grade crossing barriers result in more reliable OTP for the Silver trains, or will Amtrak get slowed down by the commuter trains? Only time will tell.

Maryland wants to expand MARC service to daily service and eventually to regional level frequencies on the NEC. To achieve that, MD will be providing major parts of the funding for additional NEC tracks, tunnel & bridge replacements in MD. MD also wants to upgrade the CSX Brunswick line for MARC. Which will help the Capitol Limited as long as MARC trains don't get in the way. In both cases, I think Amtrak will take the funding and/or track improvements.

As for long boarding times, more stations with longer and level boarding platforms will help. In the east, that means high level platforms (HLP). Savannah, Raleigh, Jacksonville, Rochester NY are slated to get HLPs. Even if the station can't get a complete level boarding platform, longer platforms can cut down on double stops. Mini highs can help also, if the alternative is to roll out the lift for a handicapped passenger. The ADA compliance funding is paying for a lot of platform upgrades or replacements, which is helping to get the stations & platforms in better overall shape.

Another consideration for reducing station dwell times is a customer base that is more familiar with Amtrak and boarding the trains. People who know the drill will have their tickets out, know generally where to line up, and be quicker about getting on board.

 

[Alexandria Nick]

SEPTA, VRE operate on Amtrak owned tracks, and not the other way round.

There's only one VRE station on Amtrak tracks (WAS). The other 17 stations are CSX (11) and NS (6).

If they ever add the third track south of Franconia, that's that. I don't think NS has any interest in a second track west of Van Dorn but I don't think there's a traffic issue yet. Plus there's definitely space for a fourth track between Franconia and Washington, assuming that Long Bridge ever gets replaced.

 

[Anderson]

I thought most of the commuter stations were going to be low(er)-level platforms to accommodate bilevel commuter trains?

As to Amtrak OTP, what is likely is that the Silvers' schedules will get tweaked to accommodate the commuter trains "around them" in the schedule, but the double-tracking should at least eliminate siding-related issues.

One follow-on to this, however, is whether the tracks along SunRail are getting upgraded in any meaningful way so as to allow higher top speeds for trains (i.e. Class 4 to Class 5 track), and whether this in conjunction with PTC-related tweaking is going to allow any 90 MPH operations. Another is whether we might eventually see any change to the Silvers' stopping patterns down the line.

 

[afigg]

If they ever add the third track south of Franconia, that's that. I don't think NS has any interest in a second track west of Van Dorn but I don't think there's a traffic issue yet. Plus there's definitely space for a fourth track between Franconia and Washington, assuming that Long Bridge ever gets replaced.

It has been in the plans for some time to someday add a 4th track from the Long Bridge through Alexandria station. As for the Long Bridge across the Potomac, it will either eventually either get a second bridge or replaced. It will just take a long time to get through the study and political decision processes. With Virginia having more tax revenue to spend on transportation projects, they may be in a position to advocate a Long Bridge replacement/2nd bridge to support VRE expansion. No initial draft EIS however on the DC DOT Long bridge study project website yet.
VRE is an example of where the commuter line has benefited Amtrak service. Because of VRE, VA has paid for additional tracks & bridges, track repair and maintenance projects from DC to south of Fredericksburg and Manassas Broad Run. If there was no VRE, Amtrak might be dealing with poor quality and fewer tracks, run down stations south of the Potomac River. If there was no VRE, the state of Virginia might not have gotten used to the idea of funding passenger rail and there would be no Lynchburger, no trains to Norfolk or Richmond Staples Mill.

 

[Anderson]

You would probably still have trains to RVR and NPN, but probably no expansions (the additional LYH and RVR/NFK trains). I can't see those not being funded (especially since they'd be so close to break-even, I suspect). But I agree...that would probably be pretty close to it for VA for quite some time.

 

[jphjaxfl]

When Tri Rail doubled tracked the line in South Florida, it actually provided better tracks for Amtrak.

 

[VentureForth]

In the case of SunRail, the double tracking will no doubtedly help. I'm sure it was part of what made the deal to create SunRail a possibility to begin with.

I don't think we'll see 90 MPH. With all the grade crossings in Florida, the cost to separate the grade would be way too high. Besides, you really don't need much more than 79 MPH for a commuter run because you are slowing down about the time you make top speed. I don't think they care to make the track 90 MPH for Amtrak's sake (which would only benefit Amtrak partly between KIS-ORL-WPK-DLD).

It will be new track, so it will be in great shape (I would hope). The existing track will likely be refurbished and brought up to date. But I don't see any real benefit in making them Class 5 track or higher.

SO - what other commuter railroads are being discussed that will be co-located with existing Amtrak service?

 

[cirdan]

SO - what other commuter railroads are being discussed that will be co-located with existing Amtrak service?

Trinity Rail Express between Fort Worth and Dallas.

If present problems ever get resolved, Amtrak will shift from the present freight tracks and use the TRE commuter track instead.

 

[CHamilton]

Sounder commuter rail Everett-Seattle-Tacoma is co-located with Amtrak. The Point Defiance bypass (built for 110 mph running) south of Tacoma will shave ten or so minutes off both commuter and Amtrak Cascades service, once it is completed in 2017. As part of this project, Amtrak will also benefit from moving its Tacoma stop to Freighthouse Square, which has better parking, and better transit connections.

 

[AlanB]

I don't think we'll see 90 MPH. With all the grade crossings in Florida, the cost to separate the grade would be way too high. Besides, you really don't need much more than 79 MPH for a commuter run because you are slowing down about the time you make top speed. I don't think they care to make the track 90 MPH for Amtrak's sake (which would only benefit Amtrak partly between KIS-ORL-WPK-DLD).

No need to grade separate for 90 MPH running. You don't have to worry about that until you reach 110 MPH.

 

[jis]

I don't think we'll see 90 MPH. With all the grade crossings in Florida, the cost to separate the grade would be way too high. Besides, you really don't need much more than 79 MPH for a commuter run because you are slowing down about the time you make top speed. I don't think they care to make the track 90 MPH for Amtrak's sake (which would only benefit Amtrak partly between KIS-ORL-WPK-DLD).

No need to grade separate for 90 MPH running. You don't have to worry about that until you reach 110 MPH.

Actually you don't need to grade separate for 110mph either. you have to for above 110mph. Just a clarficaition.

Well, theoretically you don't have to grade separate upto 125mph either. But practically, the grade crossing requiremnts become so egregous that for all practical purposes you do have to grade separate unless you want to break the bank.

 

[Guest]

In the case of SunRail, the double tracking will no doubtedly help. I'm sure it was part of what made the deal to create SunRail a possibility to begin with.
I don't think we'll see 90 MPH. With all the grade crossings in Florida, the cost to separate the grade would be way too high. Besides, you really don't need much more than 79 MPH for a commuter run because you are slowing down about the time you make top speed. I don't think they care to make the track 90 MPH for Amtrak's sake (which would only benefit Amtrak partly between KIS-ORL-WPK-DLD).

I can't remember which commuter rail operation it was (does someone else remember?), but one of the commuter rail operations somewhere in the US decided to maintain its track to FRA Class 5 standards for reliability purposes, so that most track defects would only reduce it to Class 4, and so that freights could keep up with passenger trains. Where PTC is installed (which the commuter rail operations are busily installing), this will allow for 90 mph speed limits, though not for 90 mph timetables. This is good for pretty much only one thing: for Amtrak to "catch up" after a station delay. However, I think it will give that benefit and thus provide greater schedule adherence.

 

[Anderson]

In the case of SunRail, the double tracking will no doubtedly help. I'm sure it was part of what made the deal to create SunRail a possibility to begin with.
I don't think we'll see 90 MPH. With all the grade crossings in Florida, the cost to separate the grade would be way too high. Besides, you really don't need much more than 79 MPH for a commuter run because you are slowing down about the time you make top speed. I don't think they care to make the track 90 MPH for Amtrak's sake (which would only benefit Amtrak partly between KIS-ORL-WPK-DLD).

I can't remember which commuter rail operation it was (does someone else remember?), but one of the commuter rail operations somewhere in the US decided to maintain its track to FRA Class 5 standards for reliability purposes, so that most track defects would only reduce it to Class 4, and so that freights could keep up with passenger trains. Where PTC is installed (which the commuter rail operations are busily installing), this will allow for 90 mph speed limits, though not for 90 mph timetables. This is good for pretty much only one thing: for Amtrak to "catch up" after a station delay. However, I think it will give that benefit and thus provide greater schedule adherence.

This is what I was thinking: Once PTC goes into effect, it's strictly a matter of adjusting crossing gate timings to go from 79 MPH to 90 MPH, assuming Class 5 track. I don't have a speed limit map, but I presume that most of JAX-ORL-KIS is Class 5 (and therefore capable of 79 at the moment).

Another incidental question on the SunRail front: Any chance there ends up being a passable transit connection between SunRail and Disney or Universal Studios? I'm dead serious about this...I go down there often enough to visit a friend, and I think we'd both enjoy not having to fight Orlando traffic.

 

[cirdan]

Another incidental question on the SunRail front: Any chance there ends up being a passable transit connection between SunRail and Disney or Universal Studios? I'm dead serious about this...I go down there often enough to visit a friend, and I think we'd both enjoy not having to fight Orlando traffic.

Doesn't Disney already run a system of buses to bring in visitors from various locations across Orlando, including one that serves the present Amtrak station?

It could be I'm mistaken of course. But I that was my understanding.

 

[Nathanael]

This is what I was thinking: Once PTC goes into effect, it's strictly a matter of adjusting crossing gate timings to go from 79 MPH to 90 MPH, assuming Class 5 track.

Most new gate installations are "constant warning time", supposedly, in order to warn when 10 mph freights are only a short distance away, but when 79 mph passenger trains are a long distance away... so new gate installations (such as SunRail will have) will probably not even require alteration.

 

[VentureForth]

Perhaps new gates, but I live right on the CSX Main, and it's timed to the fastest train. Once, the gate was barely down when a Silver came barreling through. On the other hand a full up coal train can have you waiting at the gate for a solid minute or two until it finally lumbers into the crossing. I was concerned about the Pax train when I saw a near miss. Called CSX and they promptly retimed it so there is a good 45 seconds or so from the time the lights start until a 79 MPH Passenger train flies through.