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I will only dip my toe into this one.

Lonestar648 said:
If this kid did this type thing at the airport, he is arrested, no questions asked, no matter whose son he is. The same should apply to Amtrak. There is no reason for anyone to attack any member of the crew so the LEO should take the person off. Failing to do so is disrespectful to the entire Amtrak crew.
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True, but as previously reported, it gets a different look when children are involved, the train is underway or there aren't a ton of witnesses, which can lead to "this is what happened/no this is what happened" kind of events.

The Kobayashi Maru scenario rages on for all persons involved...daily.
 
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Thirdrail7 said:
I will only dip my toe into this one.

Lonestar648 said:
If this kid did this type thing at the airport, he is arrested, no questions asked, no matter whose son he is. The same should apply to Amtrak. There is no reason for anyone to attack any member of the crew so the LEO should take the person off. Failing to do so is disrespectful to the entire Amtrak crew.
Click to expand...
True, but as previously reported, it gets a different look when children are involved, the train is underway or there aren't a ton of witnesses, which can lead to "this is what happened/no this is what happened" kind of events.

The Kobayashi Maru scenario rages on for all persons involved...daily.
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default_wacko.png
What does an unbeatable test from a fictional television episode have to do with this scenario?
 
spinnaker said:
Thirdrail7 said:
I will only dip my toe into this one.

Lonestar648 said:
If this kid did this type thing at the airport, he is arrested, no questions asked, no matter whose son he is. The same should apply to Amtrak. There is no reason for anyone to attack any member of the crew so the LEO should take the person off. Failing to do so is disrespectful to the entire Amtrak crew.
Click to expand...
True, but as previously reported, it gets a different look when children are involved, the train is underway or there aren't a ton of witnesses, which can lead to "this is what happened/no this is what happened" kind of events.

The Kobayashi Maru scenario rages on for all persons involved...daily.
Click to expand...
default_wacko.png
What does an unbeatable test from a fictional television episode have to do with this scenario?
Click to expand...
This situation, like many others that involve the public was going to result in a problem, not matter what road you took.
 
My question is: did the unaccompanied minor start an argument, or did the conductor start the argument by demanding paperwork from the unaccompanied minor?

If the former, he should have been arrested. If the latter, the fault fundamentally lies with Amtrak HQ for its really stupid unaccompanied minor policies, which are simply *asking* for people to violate them.
 
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neroden said:
My question is: did the unaccompanied minor start an argument, or did the conductor start the argument by demanding paperwork from the unaccompanied minor?

If the former, he should have been arrested. If the latter, the fault fundamentally lies with Amtrak HQ for its really stupid unaccompanied minor policies, which are simply *asking* for people to violate them.
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You make it sound like your are excusing the passenger's violent behavior.

If you don't like the rules then don't ***** when you get caught violating them. Any physical violence on another person is wrong (barring self defense) no matter the circumstances. 15 yo is certainly old enough to know better. if simply being asked for documentation sets this kid off, I feel sorry for anyone that might cross his path,
 
Thirdrail7 said:
spinnaker said:
Lonestar648 said:
The sad take away is that society is empowering minors to do what ever they want to adults without fear of major consequences.
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Actually the sad part is our litigious society forcing Amtrak to make this decision.
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It also forces the police to make a hell of a decision.
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Granted I only have had experience with APD on this one, but isn't it the conductor's final choice whether they stay or go? Unless you mean the police deciding whether to charge and hold him, or release him on his own. That, yes, would be a big decision.
 
It appears that the Conductor requested the Police so the decision was made that the 15 year old was to get off, but with no support from the local LEO, the Conductor must have felt compelled, possibly with advise from a Supervisor not to put him off. Seems like this sets up for both the Conductor and Amtrak to be sued. Courts like children over adults so the suit most likely would be settled out of court. Just like the schools, if the child says an adult touched them, but there are no witnesses, the School Board has no choice but to discipline and/or terminate the adult where they are innocent or not. Everyone is afraid to handle children and the children know this so some use this knowledge to manipulate the system.
 
If the youth actually assaulted the conductor, and the conductor insisted on pressing charges, the police would have no choice but to hold the youth, at least until a parent came to get him.

I suspect, the police did not really want to make a 'case' out of it, and pressured the conductor that booked off to let it go, as well as pressuring the relieving conductor to take the youth on to his destination.

In some of these cases, it all depends on the responding police, and whether they want to handle the situation properly, or would rather see it just "go away".
 
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I'm going to bookmark this thread so I can reference it any time a minor asks if they can get away with fooling the conductors instead of going through the "unaccompanied minor" process.
 
spinnaker said:
neroden said:
My question is: did the unaccompanied minor start an argument, or did the conductor start the argument by demanding paperwork from the unaccompanied minor? If the former, he should have been arrested. If the latter, the fault fundamentally lies with Amtrak HQ for its really stupid unaccompanied minor policies, which are simply *asking* for people to violate them.
Click to expand...
You make it sound like your are excusing the passenger's violent behavior.
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Was it violent? Simple assault can include virtually any action which involves contact, violent or otherwise. That's what makes this thread so frustrating. There's not nearly enough information to fully understand what really happened.

SarahZ said:
I'm going to bookmark this thread so I can reference it any time a minor asks if they can get away with fooling the conductors instead of going through the "unaccompanied minor" process.
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You might be surprised at how a teenager could interpret this thread. They may choose to disbelieve it entirely or even see it as some sort of worst case success story.
 
SarahZ said:
Lonestar648 said:
Good idea. I think it wasn't that long ago that a minor wanted to travel by himself, discussing his options in this forum.
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We've had a few like that.
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And of course, it also often depends on the train being chosen. The odds of getting called out are probably a lot lower on corridor trains, let alone commuter-esque trains with unreserved seating (say, the Surfliner) than on an LD train. IIRC most of the cases involved trains towards the commuter-ish end of the spectrum.

TBH I have trouble finding fault with someone not wanting to be hamstrung by excessively CYA policies on the part of Amtrak (bear in mind that UAM policies hard-bar a significant number of types of travel, including overnight trips in the case of Amtrak; outside of Amtrak, there's often significant expense added to UAM travel as well...IIRC a number of airlines slap an extra $100-150 or so onto each one-way ticket...so Junior's $150 round-trip "basic economy" ticket might easily end up running $450).

Yes, I recognize that this is all "for their protection" and "it's a dangerous world" and all that jazz, but especially taking into account the number of unstaffed stations in the system potentially constraining travel now it gets pretty absurd how constrained some things are (especially since in some cases, at least on paper it's possible to do most or all of a trip on commuter trains regardless of Amtrak's policies...for example, as far as I can tell, Metrolink and Coaster don't even have a UAM policy, so in an attempt to "protect" under-18s Amtrak's policy forces them to make an extra transfer at Oceanside), particularly once you throw shared custody situations involving geographically separated families.
 
After reading this thread it is clear (that unless someone was an eye witness), we really do not know what happened. I find it hard to believe that if anyone committed an assault, minor or not, he/she would not be taken away by the police.
 
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Anderson said:
SarahZ said:
Lonestar648 said:
Good idea. I think it wasn't that long ago that a minor wanted to travel by himself, discussing his options in this forum.
Click to expand...
We've had a few like that.
Click to expand...
And of course, it also often depends on the train being chosen. The odds of getting called out are probably a lot lower on corridor trains, let alone commuter-esque trains with unreserved seating (say, the Surfliner) than on an LD train. IIRC most of the cases involved trains towards the commuter-ish end of the spectrum.

TBH I have trouble finding fault with someone not wanting to be hamstrung by excessively CYA policies on the part of Amtrak (bear in mind that UAM policies hard-bar a significant number of types of travel, including overnight trips in the case of Amtrak; outside of Amtrak, there's often significant expense added to UAM travel as well...IIRC a number of airlines slap an extra $100-150 or so onto each one-way ticket...so Junior's $150 round-trip "basic economy" ticket might easily end up running $450).

Yes, I recognize that this is all "for their protection" and "it's a dangerous world" and all that jazz, but especially taking into account the number of unstaffed stations in the system potentially constraining travel now it gets pretty absurd how constrained some things are (especially since in some cases, at least on paper it's possible to do most or all of a trip on commuter trains regardless of Amtrak's policies...for example, as far as I can tell, Metrolink and Coaster don't even have a UAM policy, so in an attempt to "protect" under-18s Amtrak's policy forces them to make an extra transfer at Oceanside), particularly once you throw shared custody situations involving geographically separated families.
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In this litigious society, if I owned a carrier, I would have a simple "no unaccompanied minor's" policy. I would not take on the liability of being responsible for one, for any amount of extra fee, when so many things could happen beyond my control, to jeopardize my position.

In the case of split custody...too bad...one of you has to accompany your offspring when transfering to the other.
 
I feel like if someone physically assaults an employee (or anyone for that matter), they should be at minimum taken off the train. That person is a hazard to other employees or passengers, and allowing him to ride (especially since he's an unaccompanied minor without the appropriate paperwork) would seem to tell him that his behavior is ok. Forgive me if I'm missing something, since I seem to be in the minority here, but that's my take on the situation.
 
railiner said:
In this litigious society, if I owned a carrier, I would have a simple "no unaccompanied minor's" policy. I would not take on the liability of being responsible for one, for any amount of extra fee, when so many things could happen beyond my control, to jeopardize my position.


In the case of split custody...too bad...one of you has to accompany your offspring when transfering to the other.
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In the case of Amtrak, how could you enforce that? A minor has the ability to buy a ticket as if they're an adult. So they show up at a station. The train pulls in. Are you going to check everyone's ticket and ID to determine if their ticket is proper with regards to age? Oh, and by the way, while you're doing all this, you have a road crossing blocked and the train is already a half hour late.

Yesterday it was so hot in Charlotte that the assistant conductor didn't bother with having all us old timers stand out in the sun fiddling with our tickets. She checked them when we got going.

What to do in any given situation is a judgement call on the part of the crew. Corporate policies, such as "unattended minor", sometimes become "guidelines" rather than hard-fast rules.

jb
 
Well the other thing to is that if someone really wants to get around something they can. The more determined the more successful they will be at it.
 
dlagrua said:
After reading this thread it is clear (that unless someone was an eye witness), we really do not know what happened. I find it hard to believe that if anyone committed an assault, minor or not, he/she would not be taken away by the police.
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Reviewing, the OP is John Bobinyac giving a first hand account. As to "assault" I think we should treat it as fact. As to "degree" hopefully John will give us an update.
 
cpotisch said:
I feel like if someone physically assaults an employee (or anyone for that matter), they should be at minimum taken off the train. That person is a hazard to other employees or passengers, and allowing him to ride (especially since he's an unaccompanied minor without the appropriate paperwork) would seem to tell him that his behavior is ok. Forgive me if I'm missing something, since I seem to be in the minority here, but that's my take on the situation.
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In casual conversations physical assault is generally envisioned as slapping, hitting, or beating someone. In reality calmly tapping a shoulder or slowly pushing someone away from shouting in your face can be considered physical assault for legal purposes.
 
John Bobinyec said:
railiner said:
In this litigious society, if I owned a carrier, I would have a simple "no unaccompanied minor's" policy. I would not take on the liability of being responsible for one, for any amount of extra fee, when so many things could happen beyond my control, to jeopardize my position.


In the case of split custody...too bad...one of you has to accompany your offspring when transfering to the other.
Click to expand...
In the case of Amtrak, how could you enforce that? A minor has the ability to buy a ticket as if they're an adult. So they show up at a station. The train pulls in. Are you going to check everyone's ticket and ID to determine if their ticket is proper with regards to age? Oh, and by the way, while you're doing all this, you have a road crossing blocked and the train is already a half hour late.

Yesterday it was so hot in Charlotte that the assistant conductor didn't bother with having all us old timers stand out in the sun fiddling with our tickets. She checked them when we got going.

What to do in any given situation is a judgement call on the part of the crew. Corporate policies, such as "unattended minor", sometimes become "guidelines" rather than hard-fast rules.

jb
Click to expand...
If someone close to adult age buys a ticket and boards...that's on them...and another matter.

What I am concerned with is the official unaccompanied minor policy, where paperwork is involved, and the carrier has custodial responsibility for the UM...
 

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