Has Amtrak thought of this?

Well I was browsing through the Amtrak rail maps and I wondered, why doesnt Amtrak run a line or extending the San Joaquins from Bakersfield to LAX? I mean the two cities are really not that far apart and it would prove an alternative from the Coast Starlight. Has Amtrak thought of this? If so, whats preventing them? Your thoughts?

A lot of people would love to run trains through to LA from Bakersfield. As of right now there's a huge mountain range in the way preventing this from happening. It would be extremely costly to go through it, though I believe California HSR plans call to do this. Right now the most direct rail route I believe goes through Cajon Pass (but I may be wrong), and I think it takes about three hours longer than the bus service does. Part of Amtrak California's big appeal is to compete with the airlines and highways both in speed and price, going via Cajon Pass does not accomplish the former goal.

battalion51 said:

A lot of people would love to run trains through to LA from Bakersfield. As of right now there's a huge mountain range in the way preventing this from happening. It would be extremely costly to go through it, though I believe California HSR plans call to do this. Right now the most direct rail route I believe goes through Cajon Pass (but I may be wrong), and I think it takes about three hours longer than the bus service does. Part of Amtrak California's big appeal is to compete with the airlines and highways both in speed and price, going via Cajon Pass does not accomplish the former goal.

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While I'm far from the expert on Southern Cal tracks, I believe the issue is Tehachapi Loop and not so much Cajon Pass. I believe that the direct route through Tehachapi Pass via the famous Tehachapi loop, does not require passage through the Cajon Pass. I want to say that BNSF owns that track, but it could also be UP. Either way, it's my understanding that there simply isn't enough capacity for the freight that runs through that area, much less any extra capacity to allow for Amtrak to push through.

and totally off topic, but why cant you book paso robles to SAN on the surfliner on the internet? Amtraks website says the train goes between the destinations, but it let you book it.

The most direct route between LAX and Bakersfield is I-5 over the Tejon Pass also known as "The Grapevine" to folks from SoCal. Rising from basically sea level to 4,100 feet and then back down to sea level in a matter of 40 miles, the Tejon Pass can be a challenging drive. It has been known to close for snow and white out conditions while rain falls in LA.

I couldn't tell you if there are any rails running over the Tejon Pass or not, and honestly would not know where to look. But given that Amtrak has sent an AmBus over Tejon for as long as I can remember, I'd be willing to bet that the answer is no.

I imagine that there is demand for rail service over the Tejon Pass. As real estate in the LA basin becomes more and more expensive, I have heard of folks buying real estate in Bakersfield and commuting to the San Fernando Valley (Northern Part of LA). Mertolink runs a train from Lancaster to LA. The only reason I can think of why they are not running a train from Bakersfield to LA would be a lack of rail.

Running trains from LAX to Bakersfield via San Bernadino, Cajon Pass, and Tehachapi Loop would add hours to a trip that otherwise takes about an hour and a half by car or bus.

Rick

Guest said:

and totally off topic, but why cant you book paso robles to SAN on the surfliner on the internet? Amtraks website says the train goes between the destinations, but it let you book it.

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I just checked and I can book a ticket from Paso Robles to San Diego via the online system. What one can't do is to book a one seat ride. The Surfliner's don't actually run to Paso Robles, so one must either catch the Coast Starlight and then switch to a Surfliner further south or one must take a bus from Paso Robles to San Luis Obispo, the northern most destination directly served by the Surfliners.

Again it comes back to track capacity, this time it is definately UP's fault. It is also possible that the Surfliner fleet might be stretched too thin even if they could run that far north.

rmgreenesq said:

I couldn't tell you if there are any rails running over the Tejon Pass or not, and honestly would not know where to look. But given that Amtrak has sent an AmBus over Tejon for as long as I can remember, I'd be willing to bet that the answer is no.

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The various RR Atlasas that I've got would seem to indicate that there has never been any tracks through Tejon Pass.

rmgreenesq said:

Running trains from LAX to Bakersfield via San Bernadino, Cajon Pass, and Tehachapi Loop would add hours to a trip that otherwise takes about an hour and a half by car or bus.

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Trains running from Bakersfield through the Tehachapi Loop do not need to go over Cajon Pass. After passing through Tehachapi the town, the loop, and the pass; the tracks continue southeast to Mojave, where they turn due south through Lancaster and then Palmdale. At Palmdale almost due west and while still heading slightly south to Saugus. From there they again turn southwest to San Fernando, Burbank, and eventually LA. Therefore completely avoiding the Cajon Pass.

By the way, I wasn't sure in my prior post who owned the Tehachapi Loop, but the other map that I just pulled out indicates that it is indeed UP, which helps to explain why Amtrak can't get permission to run trains south on those tracks.

AlanB said:

Trains running from Bakersfield through the Tehachapi Loop do not need to go over Cajon Pass. After passing through Tehachapi the town, the loop, and the pass; the tracks continue southeast to Mojave, where they turn due south through Lancaster and then Palmdale. At Palmdale almost due west and while still heading slightly south to Saugus. From there they again turn southwest to San Fernando, Burbank, and eventually LA. Therefore completely avoiding the Cajon Pass.

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Alan:

Even the routing you list is not as fast or direct as the Tejon Pass. Running a train from Saugus/Newhall to Castaic to Grapevine, to Ft. Tejon and then to Bakersfield would be faster and more direct a routing. It would also require an engineering marvel to run rails down the grade from Ft. Tejon to the San Juaquin Valley floor as the grade is 6% to 8%. The Grapevine is a real fun drive, but not quite as fun as I-70 from the Eisenhower Tunnel (11,000') to Denver (5,280').

I did a quick and dirty look on Google Maps and did not see any rails following I-5 or even in the vacinity. The rails fron Saugus follow CA 14 a/k/ the Antelope Valley Freeway to Palmdale and Lancaster, just as you describe.

I imagine the AmBus takes I-5 from Bakersfield to LAUPT.

Rick

To defend the Union Pacific, the line over Tehachapi Pass is a very busy piece of single track railroad on a very challenging route. The line is owned by the UP, but BNSF has trackage rights and the train count is high. This is the principle route from the Bay Area and the Northwest to Texas and the southeast. The grades and curves result in slow drags for the freights. Mixing in two daily passenger trains running at a higher speed is a far greater disruption to the traffic than just the added train count. Even if Amtrak could get permission to operate a train, the trip time to LA would be hours longer than the bus connection from Bakersfield.

The only recent move by Amtrak over the pass was the nationwide farewell tour of David Gunn in the Fall of 2005 (he did not know the ax was about to fall, he just wanted a train ride: wink, wink). Gunn was out and about and needed to get himself and his car from Seattle to LA for some "important business". The normal route of the Coast Starlight down the UP Coast Line was blocked by a maintenance blitz. The Starlight was using a bus bridge around the closure. Mr. Gunn wanted no part of the bus bridge (good enough for normal passengers, not good enough for Mr. Gunn). So, the UP permitted a one-time Amtrak crossing of Tehachapi by the Starlight with Gunn and his car on the rear. I never heard how much that little junkett cost Amtrak, but I am sure it was a nice piece of change (this was an added move: the main train and most of the passengers still used the bus bridge route). The Starlight on Tehachapi was the Southern California railfan event of the year. About a week or so later the Amtrak Board awarded Mr. Gunn a one way ticket back to Nova Scotia. He was "shocked".

The fact is the using the pass for trains from Northern California to LA may be of interest to rail fans but would make very little transportation sense. The route is just too slow and too congested.

To clear up the geography and its name, here is it:

Tejon Pass ("Grapevine")- I-5. It has no tracks.

Tehachapi Loop- between I-5 and I-15, on CA-58. It's a paradise for railfans, arming with cameras. It can be found 6 miles west of Tehachapi. Tracks is single.

Cajon Pass- I-15. Again, 2nd choice for railfanning. The tracks are double.

Yep, you guys have posted it correctly. There is no way PAX traffic will ever resume over the Tehachapi Pass again with all the freight moved over it daily. Unfortunatly, there are no rail lines that run directly due south from BFD over the grapevine to LAUS.

Wb

gswager said:

Cajon Pass- I-15. Again, 2nd choice for railfanning. The tracks are double.

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A good part of the climb up to the pass heading east from LAX however is triple tracked.

rmgreenesq said:

AlanB said:

Trains running from Bakersfield through the Tehachapi Loop do not need to go over Cajon Pass. After passing through Tehachapi the town, the loop, and the pass; the tracks continue southeast to Mojave, where they turn due south through Lancaster and then Palmdale. At Palmdale almost due west and while still heading slightly south to Saugus. From there they again turn southwest to San Fernando, Burbank, and eventually LA. Therefore completely avoiding the Cajon Pass.

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Alan:

Even the routing you list is not as fast or direct as the Tejon Pass. Running a train from Saugus/Newhall to Castaic to Grapevine, to Ft. Tejon and then to Bakersfield would be faster and more direct a routing. It would also require an engineering marvel to run rails down the grade from Ft. Tejon to the San Juaquin Valley floor as the grade is 6% to 8%. The Grapevine is a real fun drive, but not quite as fun as I-70 from the Eisenhower Tunnel (11,000') to Denver (5,280').

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No arguement Rick that Tejon would be more direct and faster, I simply wanted to point out that going through Tehachapi didn't involve going through Cajon. If it did, then the trip would be even longer.

PRR 60 said:

To defend the Union Pacific, the line over Tehachapi Pass is a very busy piece of single track railroad on a very challenging route. The line is owned by the UP, but BNSF has trackage rights and the train count is high. This is the principle route from the Bay Area and the Northwest to Texas and the southeast. The grades and curves result in slow drags for the freights. Mixing in two daily passenger trains running at a higher speed is a far greater disruption to the traffic than just the added train count. Even if Amtrak could get permission to operate a train, the trip time to LA would be hours longer than the bus connection from Bakersfield.
The fact is the using the pass for trains from Northern California to LA may be of interest to rail fans but would make very little transportation sense. The route is just too slow and too congested.

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Agreed Bill, and I was trying to imply that UP's seeming dislike of Amtrak was only part of the problem. In this particular case I can't really blame UP for not wanting to allow Amtrak to run trains via that route.

To slightly amplify the comments of others: UP got Tehachapi Pass when they bought SP. BNSF has trackage rights grandfathered in from ATSF. The area is earthquake-prone (one of the Tehachapi tunnels was daylighted in a 1950's-era quake, IIRC), and these days, there's just too much freight churning over the line to squeeze in even one Amtrak RT.

And no, I do not expect to see a regular Amtrak train going over Tehachapi Pass in my lifetime. I'm not sure what Tehachapi saw pre-May 1, 1971.

Well the Coast Starlight is regular and it saw the pass not too long ago. Scheduled service crossing it on a daily basis is another story. :lol:

I've spent a fair amount of time reading the California High Speed Rail Project's web page. They are advocating building a high speed rail line from Sacramento to Los Angeles via Tehachapi, Lancaster, and Palmdale. They are not advocating building rails over the Tejon Pass.

Rick

It seemed like at one point they wanted to go through Tejon, not over, maybe I misread though.

Th San Joaquin Daylight was the last regularly scheduled passenger train from Los Angeles to Oakland via Tehachapi which ran until Amtrak began on April 30, 1971. It left LA around 6:00-6:30AM and arrived in Oakland around 7PM and connected with the Cascade to Portland. It was scheduled around 5 hours or so from LA to Bakersfield. In the 1950s, SP had 3 passenger trains daily from LA to Oakland via Tehachapi with two being overnight. A overnight LA to Oakland/Emeryville train via Tehachapi would be great, but with the freight traffic will never happen. If California High Speed rail from LA to SF ever happens, a much faster line will likely be built.