Weird Pricing

Okay, I choose one way from Lamy, NM to Los Angeles, Ca.

2 adults, 2 children

June 1 Railfare: $198

June 1 Accommodations: $165 per roomette (need 2)

Total should be $528 but shows up as $882

My first thought was that maybe the second roomette was hitting the next bucket level, but that would mean $519 for the second roomette. I believe after searching the next bucket is $342. $342 is what it is charging for both rooms because the railfare plus $342 twice equals $882.

Any ideas what is going on? Is this a glitch or am I missing something?

I just ran your scenario. I think it's a glitch.

With 2 roomettes;

4 Passengers:

Passenger 1: Adult

Passenger 2: Adult

Passenger 3: Child

Passenger 4: Child

Rail Fare: $198.00

Accommodations Price: $684.00

Total: $882.00

I thought maybe they were actually billing for a bedroom.

With 1 bedroom;

4 Passengers:

Passenger 1: Adult

Passenger 2: Adult

Passenger 3: Child

Passenger 4: Child

Rail Fare: $198.00

Accommodations Price: $649.00

Total: $847.00

Then I split you up, 1 adult, 1 child per booking;

With 1 roomette

2 Passengers:

Passenger 1: Adult

Passenger 2: Child

Rail Fare: $99.00

Accommodations Price: $165.00

Total: $264.00

So make 2 bookings, 1 adult, 1 child each, with roomette. Makes $528.

Does that work for you?

I was noticing the same thing while looking at a possible EMY-DEN trip next year on the CZ.

I don't have all the numbers handy, but I did scribble down some bucket prices I could find for roomettes on that leg: $185, $251, $316, $447. I think there may be one around $381/382 as well (to fit in the progression of $65/66 per bucket upgrade), but I couldn't get it to come up while checking roomette prices on various dates.

Anyway, the accomodation fare for one roomette was shown as the lowest bucket of $185, but the accomodation fare for two roomettes on the trip came out to $764. The only way that makes mathematical sense to me is if each roomette is charged the "missing bucket" price of $382 (x2=$764), but that doesn't make sense from a logical standpoint. This is where I reminded myself that I'm dealing with Amtrak...

One thing I didn't try is making two separate reservations. Make the first at the advertised low bucket, then see what price is offered for a second one-roomette reservation. It might even be low bucket! Perhaps Amtrak's market research has shown that its customers are attracted to inverse economies of scale...

Strange. Maybe your theory is right. Did you try pricing them out separately? You may need to do two separate bookings to get the first one at low-bucket.

In any case, do it soon, as if you are right on the tipping edge of the buckets, someone could come along and buy a roomette and you'd have to buy both at the next bucket!

ceblack

Oops, I didn't actually run 2 separate bookings, the second booking might trigger a higher bucket.

I think a call to Amtrak by printman2000 is warranted. Seems to me if you're booking 1 trip with a group, it shouldn't be cause for a penalty fare.

Dennis

Could there be just one roomette at the lowest bucket?

When one reserves two roomettes at the same time, you get one at the lowest bucket and one at a higher bucket. When one does two separate reservations, both reservations are attempting to book the same lowest bucket roomette? If one actually completes the reservation, the first reservation will get the lowest bucket roomette, and the second reservation would be "sorry... too late" and get repriced at the higher bucket roomette?

Just thinking out loud here....

Tony said:

Could there be just one roomette at the lowest bucket?
When one reserves two roomettes at the same time, you get one at the lowest bucket and one at a higher bucket. When one does two separate reservations, both reservations are attempting to book the same lowest bucket roomette? If one actually completes the reservation, the first reservation will get the lowest bucket roomette, and the second reservation would be "sorry... too late" and get repriced at the higher bucket roomette?

Just thinking out loud here....

Click to expand...

I suspect that you're right Tony, I think that there was a cancellation of a low bucket room that is now showing up. However the remaining rooms are at a much higher bucket level. I also noticed during my testing, that something in general is just wrong with that date. If I try to book 4 roomettes, it tells me that it can't process my reservation even though it shows 8 are available.

I have tried this on many, many dates and the same things happens. Even on June 1st and that day just opened up today. I do not believe this is a bucket issue.

printman2000 said:

I have tried this on many, many dates and the same things happens. Even on June 1st and that day just opened up today. I do not believe this is a bucket issue.

Click to expand...

Same thing for the reverse trip. Maybe they only have ONE roomette at low bucket on any date? Then if you ask for two, it offers BOTH of them at the NEXT bucket?

p&sr said:

printman2000 said:

I have tried this on many, many dates and the same things happens. Even on June 1st and that day just opened up today. I do not believe this is a bucket issue.

Click to expand...

Same thing for the reverse trip. Maybe they only have ONE roomette at low bucket on any date? Then if you ask for two, it offers BOTH of them at the NEXT bucket?

Click to expand...

Well, as I said in the original post, that would mean the second room would be costing $519 which is not the next bucket.

printman2000 said:

Well, as I said in the original post, that would mean the second room would be costing $519 which is not the next bucket.

Click to expand...

Or else it means BOTH roomettes cost $354... which might be.

The same glitch in the Reservations System is noted in another thread:

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?...20&start=20

Okay, I went ahead and tried reserving one roomette and then going back in to reserve a second roomette.

Date: May 9, 2009.

Route: California Zephyr (CZ)

Origin: Emeryville, CA (EMY)

Destination: Grand Junction, CO (GJT)

Passengers: 2 Adults, 1 Child, 1 Infant

Railfare pricing

Adult: $96

Child: $48

Accommodation pricing

Roomette Bucket 1: $154

Roomette Bucket 2: $208/209 (See note below)

Roomette Bucket 3: $263

Roomette Bucket 4: $317

Roomette Bucket 5: $371

(Note: I checked multiple dates to try to get every bucket price, but was only able to obtain four of the five. Per my previous post, the increase in accommodation charge between each bucket seems to be the same... in this case about $54. From that, I interpolated the 2nd bucket accommodation charge. Based on my completely non-scientific sample of this trip and the EMY-DEN segment, the increase between bucket levels seems to be roughly 35% of the low-bucket accommodation charge. I'm not sure if that's system-wide or just for the CZ... I'll leave that for others to figure out.)

Here's what I got out of Arrow doing a combined (entire family, 2 roomettes) reservation:

Railfare: $240 (96 + 96 + 48 + 0)

Accommodations: $634 (Note this is 317 + 317. The displayed charge for a roomette was $154)

Total: $874

Here's the scoop on separate reservations (1st 1 Adult, 1 child. 2nd 1 Adult, 1 infant):

1st Railfare: $144 (96 + 48)

1st Accommodation: $154 (1st Bucket)

2nd Railfare: $ 96 (96 + 0)

2nd Accommodation: $317 (4th Bucket!!)

Total: $711

Quick conclusions:

Apparently roomettes go straight from 1st to 4th bucket... possibly after the 1st roomette is sold! I checked a few dates pretty far out in the future and all showed the same total fare after displaying the $154 roomette charge, so I don't think I just happened on a date where several roomettes were already sold on the train.

It is cheaper to make the separate reservations (by three "bucket intervals" or about 1.05 times the low bucket accommodation charge). "Crooked" Arrow apparently charges both roomettes at the higher bucket rate when making a combined reservation.

I'm not sure what you'd be charged if you made the reservation over the phone... I assume the "live Julies" just get their price information from Arrow, so you might have to make separate reservations there as well. At least on the phone you should be able to combined them afterwards into one reservation!

What might be happening when the roomette goes straight from the first bucket to the fourth is that there was a cancellation of a roomette that had originally been booked at the first bucket. When that happens, that lone roomette goes back into inventory at the original booking bucket (in this case, the first bucket). Once that one is sold, the rooms resume selling at whatever the going bucket rate is (in this case, the fourth).

It's still silly that two roomettes booked on the same reservation cannot come from different buckets, but this might explain why the price seems to jump so high.

If this is the case, the OP'd better get booking ASAP, since once that ONE roomette at low bucket is sold, the rest will resume selling at the highest bucket!

jackal said:

What might be happening when the roomette goes straight from the first bucket to the fourth is that there was a cancellation of a roomette that had originally been booked at the first bucket. When that happens, that lone roomette goes back into inventory at the original booking bucket (in this case, the first bucket). Once that one is sold, the rooms resume selling at whatever the going bucket rate is (in this case, the fourth).
It's still silly that two roomettes booked on the same reservation cannot come from different buckets, but this might explain why the price seems to jump so high.

If this is the case, the OP'd better get booking ASAP, since once that ONE roomette at low bucket is sold, the rest will resume selling at the highest bucket!

Click to expand...

If I'm viewing this correctly, I guess one should feel fortunate they lucked out on a cancelled reservation and saved $$$?

ceblack said:

Route: California Zephyr (CZ)Origin: Emeryville, CA (EMY)

Destination: Grand Junction, CO (GJT)

Passengers: 2 Adults, 1 Child, 1 Infant

Railfare pricing

Adult: $96

Child: $48

Accommodation pricing

Roomette Bucket 1: $154

Roomette Bucket 2: $208/209 (See note below)

Roomette Bucket 3: $263

Roomette Bucket 4: $317

Roomette Bucket 5: $371

(Note: I checked multiple dates to try to get every bucket price, but was only able to obtain four of the five.

Here's what I got out of Arrow doing a combined (entire family, 2 roomettes) reservation:

Railfare: $240 (96 + 96 + 48 + 0)

Quick conclusions:

Apparently roomettes go straight from 1st to 4th bucket... possibly after the 1st roomette is sold!

Click to expand...

Pricing that route for October 2 confirms your supposition that Bucket 2 Roomette is $208. Your full trip that day would be $656, so no problem with two Roomettes in Bucket 2.

For November 2, low bucket Roomettes are available. Full trip $548 as expected. This date does NOT bump either or both Roomettes up to Bucket 4. So if TWO low-bucket Roomettes are available, they are appropriately billed. When there is only one available, it seems that they both go for some higher Bucket Price (possibly Bucket 4)... which does suggest an Error in the Programming.

p&sr said:

For November 2, low bucket Roomettes are available. Full trip $548 as expected. This date does NOT bump either or both Roomettes up to Bucket 4. So if TWO low-bucket Roomettes are available, they are appropriately billed. When there is only one available, it seems that they both go for some higher Bucket Price (possibly Bucket 4)... which does suggest an Error in the Programming.

Click to expand...

Testing for Feb 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and 6... for each date at least one Low-Bucket Roomette is available. For all five consecutive dates, booking two Roomettes together costs a total of $874... 240 for Railfare, and $317 each for two Roomettes in Bucket 4.

It may be possible that one and only one Low-Bucket Roomette is available for each of these dates. But it is not in the LEAST likely that the second available Roomette for EACH of these dates just happens to be in Bucket 4.

So we have here two evident errors in the Programming... the second Roomette is erroneously found to be in Bucket 4, and then BOTH Roomettes are then erroneously charged at this same higher rate.

In my example, I tried many dates and got the same results. No way that cancellation scenario happened on all those dates.

I was thinking about the "1st to 4th" bucket jump a bit more, and I'm wondering if it is not an error but was in fact designed that way. Someone who knows more about yield management systems could probably explain it immediately, but here's my hare-brained theory:

On far-off dates (perhaps 6 months or more) the price starts at low bucket. If one roomette sells, the system senses demand for that date and the price immediately jacks up to 4th bucket. My "logic" for this is that tours and other group outings would tend to book far in advance... this way Amtrak still gets a high bucket price for most of those roomettes. If there is no additional reservations for a set amount of time (1 month? 1 week? 1 day?) after the first reservation was made, the price drifts back down from 4th bucket to 1st bucket... either gradually or perhaps in one fell swoop.

This "time-sensitive demand" yield management factor would be layered over the "normal" airline-style yield management factor that gradually increased the bucket as the total number of available roomettes decreased. As you got closer to the trains departure date, the "time-sensitive demand" component would either diminish or be completely eliminated.

One way to test this would be to make a 1-roomette reservation for 11 months out at low bucket, and then watch the bucket price for the next several days/weeks to see if it eventually moves downward again from 4th bucket (Of course, I think of this now after I've already gone in and cancelled the reservation I made for my earlier test!).

ceblack said:

I was thinking about the "1st to 4th" bucket jump a bit more, and I'm wondering if it is not an error but was in fact designed that way. Someone who knows more about yield management systems could probably explain it immediately, but here's my hare-brained theory:
On far-off dates (perhaps 6 months or more) the price starts at low bucket. If one roomette sells, the system senses demand for that date and the price immediately jacks up to 4th bucket. My "logic" for this is that tours and other group outings would tend to book far in advance... this way Amtrak still gets a high bucket price for most of those roomettes. If there is no additional reservations for a set amount of time (1 month? 1 week? 1 day?) after the first reservation was made, the price drifts back down from 4th bucket to 1st bucket... either gradually or perhaps in one fell swoop.

This "time-sensitive demand" yield management factor would be layered over the "normal" airline-style yield management factor that gradually increased the bucket as the total number of available roomettes decreased. As you got closer to the trains departure date, the "time-sensitive demand" component would either diminish or be completely eliminated.

One way to test this would be to make a 1-roomette reservation for 11 months out at low bucket, and then watch the bucket price for the next several days/weeks to see if it eventually moves downward again from 4th bucket (Of course, I think of this now after I've already gone in and cancelled the reservation I made for my earlier test!).

Click to expand...

It's an interesting theory, but unfortunately Amtrak's ARROW computer system isn't capable of such dynamics. In fact, Amtrak must actually tell the system at what bucket level to sell each and every room in each car. It is for this reason that many people have trouble when trying to request two roomettes opposite one another and suddenly find that the price jumps up. A good agent knows how to swap a higher bucket room with a lower bucket room, such that overall revenue is not affected and yet they can provide the customer with the desired result.

But again the system isn't nearly dynamic enough to do what you suggest.

The possibilities are that someone loaded the inventory improperly, perhaps there is a slight chance that there is some computer glitch, or it is possible that for whatever reason tour groups have gobbled up a bunch of the available sleepers on multiple days during the period that you're checking.

We encountered this problem when trying to pick the best weekend for the Forum Gathering in LA this fall. Prices on both the SWC and the CZ suddenly shot up dramatically for several of the weekends while the committee was debating the correct weekend, because tour groups had jumped in to hold spaces for the leaf peepers.

AlanB said:

In fact, Amtrak must actually tell the system at what bucket level to sell each and every room in each car. It is for this reason that many people have trouble when trying to request two roomettes opposite one another and suddenly find that the price jumps up. A good agent knows how to swap a higher bucket room with a lower bucket room, such that overall revenue is not affected and yet they can provide the customer with the desired result.

Click to expand...

Maybe when you order two Roomettes on the same reservation, it reads that as "two Roomettes opposite one another", thinking that's what people would want. And maybe, if the Sleeper Car is not completely empty, the only way to do that is to claim two Fourth-Bucket Roomettes? This would transfer the strangeness out of the Computer Program and onto the Physical Layout of the Roomettes by Bucket.

p&sr said:

AlanB said:

In fact, Amtrak must actually tell the system at what bucket level to sell each and every room in each car. It is for this reason that many people have trouble when trying to request two roomettes opposite one another and suddenly find that the price jumps up. A good agent knows how to swap a higher bucket room with a lower bucket room, such that overall revenue is not affected and yet they can provide the customer with the desired result.

Click to expand...

Maybe when you order two Roomettes on the same reservation, it reads that as "two Roomettes opposite one another", thinking that's what people would want. And maybe, if the Sleeper Car is not completely empty, the only way to do that is to claim two Fourth-Bucket Roomettes? This would transfer the strangeness out of the Computer Program and onto the Physical Layout of the Roomettes by Bucket.

Click to expand...

I suppose that anything is possible, or perhaps even that Amtrak changed things on that assumption, but last I knew booking two roomettes online was no guarantee that you'd even have them in the same car, much less opposite one another.

What about Bedroom Suites?