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Colorado will probably want to maintain the line west to... some point or other... but does anyone know whether Utah's state government would care at all?

I'm not sure how far Colorado would maintain the line to.  Definitely Winter Park (Fraser would close for sure).  Probably Glenwood Springs.   Maybe Grand Junction.  Almost certainly not Green River, IMO.  And there's the catch: Provo to Grand Junction is nearly the same distance (252 mi) as Denver to Glenwood Springs (273 mi), and does not benefit Colorado at all.  And I don't see Utah caring.

I have personally proposed, several times, the following arrangement:

(1) A "Extended Ski Train" run by Colorado which goes all the way from Denver to Grand Junction.  (Though Glenwood Springs is arguably more likely.  If they could extend from Glenwood springs to Aspen that would be better, and might be politically viable.)

(2) The California Zephyr going from Denver to Salt Lake City via Wyoming, which is actually faster than the current route.

(3) ... going via BNSF from Denver to Laramie, with stops in Boulder, Longmont, Loveland, Fort Collins, and Cheyenne.  Slower than the UP route via Greeley, but sooo much more online population, and they're all hungry for train service, too.

Edited by neroden

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Colorado will probably want to maintain the line west to... some point or other... but does anyone know whether Utah's state government would care at all?

I'm not sure how far Colorado would maintain the line to.  Definitely Winter Park (Fraser would close for sure).  Probably Glenwood Springs.   Maybe Grand Junction.  Almost certainly not Green River, IMO.  And there's the catch: Provo to Grand Junction is nearly the same distance (252 mi) as Denver to Glenwood Springs (273 mi), and does not benefit Colorado at all.  And I don't see Utah caring.

I have personally proposed, several times, the following arrangement:

(1) A "Extended Ski Train" run by Colorado which goes all the way from Denver to Grand Junction.  (Though Glenwood Springs is arguably more likely.  If they could extend from Glenwood springs to Aspen that would be better, and might be politically viable.)

(2) The California Zephyr going from Denver to Salt Lake City via Wyoming, which is actually faster than the current route.

(3) ... going via BNSF from Denver to Laramie, with stops in Boulder, Longmont, Loveland, Fort Collins, and Cheyenne.  Slower than the UP route via Greeley, but sooo much more online population, and they're all hungry for train service, too.

Why would you think Utah wouldn't care? Utah is a state that has a really good intermodal system up the Wasatch front. I think Utah would care. The biggest problem the route faces is very little online population SLC to Grand Junction and it misses the biggest draw in the area (Moab). It would be hard for UDOT to justify saving the route versus running several better timed and cheaper busses from SLC that could directly serve Moab too.

 

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I thought Utah would not care about that specific route precisely because of the reason you mention. It runs through an area where there is hardly any source of ridership.

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3 hours ago, neroden said:

.

(3) ... going via BNSF from Denver to Laramie, with stops in Boulder, Longmont, Loveland, Fort Collins, and Cheyenne.  Slower than the UP route via Greeley, but sooo much more online population, and they're all hungry for train service, too.

Minor correction....BNSF line crosses the UP at Cheyenne, not Laramie.   You are right about it being slower than the UP route thru Greeley....about twice as long....

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On 12/16/2018 at 10:03 AM, jis said:

Yeah. The Moffatt Line will be maintained at the minimal grade necessary for serving a few Coal Mines until they last. After that the business case becomes highly questionable. So it is either State sponsored or nothing. Just my partly informed speculation.

Makes one wander what was the business plan for UP buying the Rio Grande RR in the first place.

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1 minute ago, frequentflyer said:

Makes one wander what was the business plan for UP buying the Rio Grande RR in the first place.

Back when that happened there was Coal and no one had imagined it will have such a precipitous fall back then.

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Way back when, the three original operator's of the CZ....Burlington, Rio Grande, and Western Pacific would have been a 'natural' merger...

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If I'm Remembering Correctly, the MoPac, D&RGW, and Western Pacific were all under common ownership (Gould System) in the first half of the 20th century. Out of that came the transcontinental Scenic Limited from St. Louis to San Francisco over much of what would become the CZ's route. After Burlington had perfected the dome car and established the Zephyr franchise, they stepped in and supplanted MoPac as the partner east of the Rockies with a new terminus in Chicago (vs. St. Louis).

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4 hours ago, ehbowen said:

If I'm Remembering Correctly, the MoPac, D&RGW, and Western Pacific were all under common ownership (Gould System) in the first half of the 20th century. Out of that came the transcontinental Scenic Limited from St. Louis to San Francisco over much of what would become the CZ's route. After Burlington had perfected the dome car and established the Zephyr franchise, they stepped in and supplanted MoPac as the partner east of the Rockies with a new terminus in Chicago (vs. St. Louis).

What really made the Burlington the main connection east of Denver, was first, the building of the Moffat Tunnel, and then a few years later, the opening of the Dotsero Cutoff, which was 'officiated' by the Burlington's Pioneer Zephyr in 1934...

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On 12/16/2018 at 3:15 PM, railiner said:

Minor correction....BNSF line crosses the UP at Cheyenne, not Laramie.   You are right about it being slower than the UP route thru Greeley....about twice as long....

But so many more high-population stops.  The extra 2 hours would be worth it to have stations at Boulder, Longmont, Loveland, and Fort Collins, instead of... just Greeley.  I mean, massive additional ridership.

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2 hours ago, neroden said:

But so many more high-population stops.  The extra 2 hours would be worth it to have stations at Boulder, Longmont, Loveland, and Fort Collins, instead of... just Greeley.  I mean, massive additional ridership.

Maybe RTD, someday...not likely Amtrak....

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Maybe RTD, someday...not likely Amtrak....

Yeah. I agree. A local DMU service. I would be very surprised to ever see an LD train on that route. I have spent quite a bit of time in Westminster and Fort Collins on work related visits and am rather familiar with the lay of the land and line there.

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11 hours ago, jis said:


Yeah. I agree. A local DMU service. I would be very surprised to ever see an LD train on that route. I have spent quite a bit of time in Westminster and Fort Collins on work related visits and am rather familiar with the lay of the land and line there.

Funny you should mention Westminster...I lived there for many years.....

I did see the SFZ detour over that line one time...it "killed me", that I couldn't get to ride it that day....:(;)

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Funny you should mention Westminster...I lived there for many years.....
I did see the SFZ detour over that line one time...it "killed me", that I couldn't get to ride it that day....

Westminster is where the old Western Electric plant that manufactured PBXs and the associated Bell Labs Denver used to be. I visited there often when I worked for the Bell Telephone Labs - my first job after Grad School back in the early ‘80s.

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1 minute ago, jis said:


Westminster is where the old Western Electric plant that manufactured PBXs and the associated Bell Labs Denver used to be. I visited there often when I worked for the Bell Telephone Labs - my first job after Grad School back in the early ‘80s.

I lived within walking distance...12100 Melody Drive....

And I spent a year attending Front Range Community College, on the other side of that plant...

I used to use the RTD  "Wagon Road Park & Ride" to get to work, at times, but mostly just drove....

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Just because the Front Range communities want local commuter rail doesn't mean they wouldn't be happy to get Amtrak as well.  BNSF is a friendlier host than UP.

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On 4/5/2015 at 9:48 AM, FormerOBS said:

5. One additional East-West extension: Establish some service to Asheville, NC by extending the NC State's trains. Another pipe dream.

You may get half your wish on this one.  Many years ago, North Carolina's DOT built stations along the line to Asheville.  Expansion was put on hold at the host railroad's request due to capacity constraints of the Old Fort Loops (the grade up the Blue Ridge).  In the meanwhile, the state is considering a Thruway that would meet trains at either Salisbury or High Point and serve those dormant stations.

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It would seem that Ashville service start at the base of Old Fort Loops.  Run a thruway from there to Ashville.  That would make NC DOT schedules much more time appealing !  Could make it a station stop with a stub end siding with required surface HEP, potable water, lavatory servicing !

1 hour ago, dumboldboy said:

You may get half your wish on this one.  Many years ago, North Carolina's DOT built stations along the line to Asheville.  Expansion was put on hold at the host railroad's request due to capacity constraints of the Old Fort Loops (the grade up the Blue Ridge).  In the meanwhile, the state is considering a Thruway that would meet trains at either Salisbury or High Point and serve those dormant stations.

 

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On 10/16/2018 at 9:59 PM, NSC1109 said:

Queen City Limited: Chicago - Indianapolis - Cincinnati - Charlotte

fixed it for you :-þ

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Updates to the NEMP. Changes to previous listings are in blue, new additions are listed in red. 

Corridor Routes:

Expanded Wolverine (2x pair)

Expanded Blue Water (1x pair)

Expanded Pere Marquette (1x pair GRR-CHI, 1x pair GRR-DET)

Expanded Hiawatha (2x pair)

Expanded Lincoln Service (2x pair)

Expanded Missouri River Runner (1x pair)

Extended Heartland Flyer to Kansas City

Cincinnatian (Detroit-Toledo-Cincinnati)

Lake Cities (Detroit – Traverse City)

Buckeye (Detroit – Toledo – Columbus)

Bluegrass (Chicago – Indianapolis – Louisville)

Cuyahoga Valley (Chicago – Toledo – Cleveland)

Iowan (Chicago – Davenport – Cedar Rapids)

Twin Cities (Chicago – Milwaukee – Minneapolis/St. Paul)

Black Hawk (Chicago – Dubuque)

Quad Cities Zephyr (Chicago – Quad Cities)

Queen City Limited (Chicago – Indianapolis – Cincinnati)

Prairie Star (Kansas City – Hastings – Denver)

Desert Wind (Los Angeles – Las Vegas)

Kansas City Zephyr (Chicago – Galesburg – Kansas City)

Apache Limited (Los Angeles – Yuma – Phoenix)

Golden Gate (Los Angeles – San Francisco)

North Shore (Duluth – Minneapolis/St. Paul) (Connects with Frontier Service and Twin Cities)

Frontier Service (Minneapolis/St. Paul – Des Moines – Kansas City) (Connects with extended HF)

Pioneer (Portland – Hermiston – Boise)

Ohio Sprinter (Cincinnati – Columbus – Cleveland)

 

Long Distance Routes (New and Updated):

21st Century Limited (NYP – Philadelphia – Pittsburgh – Cleveland – Toledo – Chicago)

Bostonian (Chicago – Toledo – Cleveland – Buffalo – Albany – Springfield – Boston)

City of Los Angeles  ( Chicago - Omaha - Denver - Salt Lake City - Las Vegas - Los Angeles)

Empire State (Chicago – Detroit – Niagara Falls – Albany – NYP)

Great Plainsman (Chicago – Omaha – Denver)

International (Chicago – Detroit – Toronto)

Lake Shore Limited (Chicago – Detroit – Albany – New York City)

Peachtree (Chicago – Indianapolis – Louisville – Nashville – Atlanta)

Silver Comet (Chicago – Indianapolis – Louisville – Nashville – Atlanta – Orlando – Tampa)

Silver Meteor (NYP– Washington – Savannah – Jacksonville – Orlando – Miami)

Silver Palm (NYP – Washington – Savannah – Jacksonville – Orlando – Tampa)

Texas Chief (Los Angeles – Phoenix – El Paso – Dallas)

Centennial (Los Angeles – Las Vegas – Grand Junction – Denver)

Daily Cardinal

Daily Sunset Limited – fully restored to Orlando

 

Summary of Changes:

The Heartland Flyer extension's northern terminus was changed from Witchita to Kansas City.

The Chicago - Milwaukee - Minneapolis/St. Paul service name was changed from North Star to Twin Cities.

3C service in Ohio was added as the Ohio Sprinter.

Service between Duluth and Minneapolis/St. Paul was added as the North Shore. This service will be timed to connect to the Twin Cities and Frontier Service in Minneapolis/St. Paul. 

Service between Minneapolis/St. Paul and Kansas City was added as the Frontier Service. This service will be timed to connect to the Heartland Flyer in Kansas City and the North Shore in Minneapolis/St. Paul. 

Service to Boise was added as the Pioneer. This service will travel via Hermiton and connect with one of the Cascades service trains.

The Centennial and Great Plainsmen have been removed and combined into the City of Los Angeles, following the routing of the California Zephyr to SLC and then heading south to LV and LA. 

Restoration of both the daily Cardinal and Sunset Limited while also extending the SSL back to Orlando. 

 

Edited by NSC1109

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