Palm Beach Safety Patrol train this year (2015)

The Palm Beach Safety Patrol trains are running northbound on (January) the 8th and 15th, and southbound on the 11th and 18th.

On these days 97 (southbound days) and 98 (northbound days) are blocked out from public use and are run as enhanced consists for the Safety Patrol.

It is reported that the train that left on the 8th was a 21 car behemoth. Wonder if anyone got any pics or videos of it.

Per Dixieland, the train should be in WAS for the next 20 minutes (the schedule gets shifted to accommodate the group as well), so it should be running up the NEC this afternoon!

The train terminates in WAS and the equipment lays over there til the return trip...

What is the Palm Beach Safety Patrol? I tried Google and it looks like a bunch of grade school kids. They have local activities in Palm Beach?

OBS said:

The train terminates in WAS and the equipment lays over there til the return trip...

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Curious then that Amtrak shows it moving up the corridor.

jb

MrFSS said:

What is the Palm Beach Safety Patrol? I tried Google and it looks like a bunch of grade school kids. They have local activities in Palm Beach?

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What I've learned here on AU about them is that every January they commandeer an Silver train to go to Washington, DC. h34r:

MrFSS said:

What is the Palm Beach Safety Patrol? I tried Google and it looks like a bunch of grade school kids. They have local activities in Palm Beach?

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They live in Palm Beach County and they are a bunch of grade school kids that go to DC every year. The kids are members of the Safety Patrol. They wear little vests and help younger kids cross streets, etc.

I did not see the train yesterday, but have in the past. It is pretty cool.

As said before, they commandeer the train and throw off everyone else with reservations. I'm assuming that they pay well, but still, Amtrak could handle this situation better; every year Amtrak allows early bird reservers to make reservations and then cancels the reservations later. :-(

You would think that since its Winter and the Florida market is " Hot!" that Amtrak could piece together a Special train for this group and not turn away paying passengers since the other Silver Train is usually running full this time of year! Since the winter cutback in the consists of LD Trains and furloughs of OBS there should be equipment and staff available to run this Special!

" We've always done it this way!" seems

to be Amtrak's motto whichwhen it comes to this Annual event!

Actually until about 10 years ago, it was a separate train put together just for this purpose. This special has operated almost annually for at least 30-35 years.

There was a break for 3-4 years in the 90's, when they were unhappy with Amtrak, that they switched over to charter busses. They quickly came to their senses and resumed working with Amtrak...Can you imagine the logistics of 600 kids on busses for overnight travel...

Oh, I remember the mess that my school had doing 120 or so on buses for a choir trip to NYC (and that was only from Virginia). Try doing a long day in NYC on sleep in an older bus without much in the way of seat recline!

As I've said before, what Amtrak really ought to do is manage their equipment in the weeks surrounding this (especially now, with cutting a coach) and run a 2-3 car section in the front for those who reserved early. Especially with about 1/4 of the active LD Amfleets being cut back for the winter season, not to mention the lower ridership on the LSL, shaking two coaches and a sleeper loose for that shouldn't be the end of the world. Just make sure one crew member is posted in the diner/cafe to not let the two groups mix outside of those cars (for obvious reasons).

1) Six Amfleet I coaches are added to the regular Meteor consist. Sixteen car train this year.

2) The consist deadheads from Miami to West Palm Beach to pick up the school kids.
3) They have chartered the entire train. Keeping a few extra cars on to accommodate the few early reservations means the train has to make all scheduled stops. It takes 60-90 minutes to load and unload, so the normal schedule is out the window pretty early in the trip.

4) Any displaced passengers can be booked on the Silver Star (serves all but six stops), choose to go on another day or receive a refund. No, it isn't perfect but on Thursdays in January you aren't displacing that many people.

5) The six extra coaches come off at WAS with the diesel power. The train deadheads to NYP to turn for Saturday's normal 97.

6) Do you really want to be a regular passenger on a train with 600 fifth graders and their chaperons?

The reverse happens coming south. On Sunday, 97 deadheads to WAS, the extra coaches are added with the diesels. Everyone boards and the train operates non-stop to West Palm, save crew changes and servicing stops. School kids unload and the train deadheads to Miami.

To answer points 4/6:
As is often mentioned at other times, not everyone has the choice to switch their travel day...especially if "touchy" connections are involved. It should be noted that the Meteor is the only legal connection to/from the Cap and Cardinal, and to the LSL, and the times at Boston off of the Star are less than desirable...so switching to the Star (or Palmetto in the case of the A-line stops) only works if you're not connecting to another train. If you are, you either have to change days or cancel. Some of us can switch days, some of us cannot.

Moreover, while the point about Thursdays in January may hold, Sunday night is arguably another story for two reasons:

-First, it involves the back end of a weekend, and in a slew of cases the Meteor is the preferable train to take (i.e. if one is leaving New York, the Meteor offers three extra hours in NYC).

-Second, traveling on Sunday carries the advantage of a pretty clear run in CSX territory (this is one reason I'll opt to go one way or the other on Saturday or Sunday...the odds of a freight delay are smaller and the odds of making up time greater).

Finally, not to put too fine a point on it but a bigger issue is that Amtrak still lists the train as running in the timetable and makes no contrary public pronouncement on the service disruption page. There are plenty of cases where Amtrak puts a note in, switching trains on a given date and so on. There are other cases where a modified service is announced (look on their website right now...there are 10 service disruptions/adjustments listed, and whenever the Meteor or Star get cut back due to trackwork they always get an announcement assuming the work is known in advance; same with the Crescent).

In this case, Amtrak doesn't cancel the train (they could at worst trot out train 1097/1098 like they do when Daylight Savings Time causes issues or they have to split a train with a bus bridge), doesn't offer notice, and unceremoniously and without explanation cancels folks' reservations when the Palm Beach folks pick their days. This came up with a poster some months back who got, as far as they could tell, randomly booted with their reservation cancelled. I want to say that they weren't even given a complementary rebook on an adjacent train but had to book at the prevailing rates...but that could be incorrect on my part.

So there's a lot Amtrak could do...but to get to point 6, my response is this: I'd rather be on that train than a lot of other places.

Edit: One other point worth noting is that Amtrak still operates a technical timetable for this train. Per Dixieland on the normal schedule and the adjusted schedule, there's a large pad thrown in at WPB (unsurprising) and some more padding along the line, presumably to manage meets and freight delays. So there is a timetable, albeit with most stops skipped, and this timetable gets loaded into Arrow (look at the Meteor on 1/15 out of Florida and you'll see the adjusted times displayed, just with a "Sold Out" indicated). There's a whole lot that could be done differently...it just feels like Amtrak has picked the worst option out of those open to it.

The only real solution to this "problem" that does not screw either party (Paying Revenue Passengers; Safety Patrol) is to:

1. Do not use the Silver Meteor to transport the kids. Leave it untouched and operate as normal.
2. Run a separate train, a Special, just for those 600 fifth graders.

Amtrak has the means to do this, and IMHO, is obligated to. Again we could bring up the following argument: Is Amtrak meaningful transportation as a Common Carrier of the United States? Or is it instead a tour operator?

You don't see the major airlines cancelling one of their mainline routes for a full day just so they can use the aircraft to charter a special group.

As far as I'm concerned, the biggest problem is communications. If these days were blocked out from day one -- if reservations never opened for the train on these days -- if the timetable specified "train will not run SB on day X, train will not run NB on day Y" -- it would be annoying, but it would be a lot more honest to the passengers. The way Amtrak actually does it is disrespectful to its customers.

I do also hope they can get back to running a separate special. They aren't freeing up that much single-level equipment in the current winter cutbacks, unfortunately, but after the Horizons are released from the Midwest in 2018, they should have more than enough.

Blackwolf said:

The only real solution to this "problem" that does not screw either party (Paying Revenue Passengers; Safety Patrol) is to:

1. Do not use the Silver Meteor to transport the kids. Leave it untouched and operate as normal.
2. Run a separate train, a Special, just for those 600 fifth graders.

Amtrak has the means to do this, and IMHO, is obligated to. Again we could bring up the following argument: Is Amtrak meaningful transportation as a Common Carrier of the United States? Or is it instead a tour operator?

You don't see the major airlines cancelling one of their mainline routes for a full day just so they can use the aircraft to charter a special group.

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This should address some of Anderson's observations and your statement as well.

First of all, the Silver Meteor is running. it is not cancelled. It is sold out as it is reserved. It is the same thing when the Boston Red Sox took over 2171. It is the same thing when a contingent of ambassador's took over another Acela for exclusive occupancy. The WPB plans were being finalized around the same time as triple threat charters. The impacted passengers that actually had reservations were almost non existent.

If anyone actually recalls, the WPB used to operate as a stand alone train. For years, it even ran with Superliner equipment. Now, why doesn't run as a stand alone these days?

CSX.

This is what everyone leaves out of the equation: If you renumber it as an extra or as a stand alone, guess what? CSX has the right to treat it as an extra. Indeed, they don't even have to OPERATE it...because it is an extra. IF they decide to run it, you can not dictate penalties, times, schedules and there is absolutely NO mechanism for penalties or complaints.

In other words, if CSX left it out there for days, it is an extra movement and they can basically say "we'll get to it when we get to it." It is in the smae class as a light engine movement or equipment move.

When you run it as train 97 and 98, they are held to the same standards for operating it as a scheduled Amtrak train.

This is why if anyone wants to take a peak at the timetable, you'll notice a train the traverses CSX on Friday only that is numbered 78. It's basically a balancing deadhead move. However, the moment they drop the train number, it loses its schedule and becomes an extra, leaving it at the whim of the host. Keeping it as a timetable train allows the train to run.

A question for those who might know: Are the clearances for the route between Palm Beach and Washington Union Station sufficient enough for Superliner cars? While I know that extra Superliners are just as hard to get as extra Amfleet/Horizons, would it be possible to perform a Special using them?

Thirdrail7 said:

First of all, the Silver Meteor is running. it is not cancelled.

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The people that held reservations on the Silver Meteor for the affected days would beg to differ.

Extra Superliners are actually considerably harder to find than Amfleet/Horizon. Even more so positioning them in Florida, given that no one is going to dive into the Auto Train pool for such.

There would be no clearance problem between West Palm Beach (Miami) and Washington DC for Superliners.

At one time Superliners regularly operated southward out of DC on the Cardinal. Until 2002 the Cardinal was equipped with Superliners and terminated in Washington. However due to wreck damaged cars there became a shortage and the train was converted to single level equipment and extended to New York. There were a couple of instances last year where it borrowed Capitol Limited sets and only ran WAS-CHI, although I forget the circumstances off hand.

These days there is an occasional ferry move between Lorton and DC to swap out Superliners that need to go to/from Beech Grove.

I think CSX at least has to give Amtrak a bid for the train (as a one-off), but that doesn't mean they couldn't put in a bid for $1m per extra. Granted, I think CSX is probably mercenary enough to try and make a go of an extra that makes them enough money...but it could trash WPB's budget for the operation.

With that said, if the winter cutbacks happen again next year, a Superliner-on-Meteor option makes a ton of sense. Those cutbacks weren't part of the plans six months ago, but if they're going to be repeated Amtrak could move a sleeper, a transdorm, a CCC or diner, and a string of coaches to DC and run them down the coast. You'd need to alter the train's schedule for a few days (to account for the WPB/WAS operations), but a pair of early departures from MIA and NYP (or indeed two sets of the train running on a different schedule) should minimize everyone's inconvenience.

Battalion51:
That was last winter when everything froze up. I've got to say, that was an awesome train since the Cardinal suddenly had a full-service diner. My only regret was being too caught up in the lounge with the scenery at the mountains to actually grab dinner that night (since I would have been able to have a steak on the Cardinal!).

Edit: The main difference between this and the Acela incidents is that you're not looking at annihilating legal connections for them. Being displaced by an hour may be annoying and might DQ a few trips, but it isn't such a massive deal as kicking out the only legal connection for a lot of people for the day. It wouldn't be as bad if there were 3-5 trains on that section for a day that made the connections in DC/New York, but there simply aren't.

For the purposes of Amtrak's passengers, the Meteor got cancelled from under them for the day. In a sense, telling people "That train you need to make your connection and that you paid to be on? Yeah, we're running it but you can't take it even though you paid for it" is really insulting. Again, if it were a case of simply switching folks to another train running a few minutes or an hour earlier/later that would be a non-issue.

It also probably wouldn't be as bad if Amtrak would re-accommodate on the Star and allow a "forced overnight" in Washington or New York for any legal connection that was blocked...at Amtrak's expense. Booking a block of rooms six months out should be a doable thing, and while you'd still lose people who couldn't afford to waste the extra day it would be better than simply forcing them out.

Putting a service notice out on all of this, however, is the barest bit Amtrak should be doing. Not doing so is basically a slap in customers' faces.

Thirdrail7 said:

First of all, the Silver Meteor is running. it is not cancelled.

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No, it's cancelled. You don't get to just make stuff up.

The impacted passengers that actually had reservations were almost non existent.

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The passengers who had reservations were BUMPED in favor of later reservation holders.
This is *actually illegal* under the common carrier rules.

The only way this can be done legally is if the train is actually cancelled. Therefore, the train is cancelled. Get it?

If it ever goes to court due to a passenger lawsuit, you can be sure you'll discover that Amtrak asserts that the Silver Meteor is cancelled on those days.

Whether it is a "regularly operated train" from CSX's point of view is quite a different matter from the question as to whether the train is cancelled for legal purposes from the point of view of passengers.

Now, again, Amtrak could deal with this simply by blocking out reservations 11 months in advance before reservations open. But due to some sort of incompetence, Amtrak does not do this.

Thirdrail7 said:

In other words, if CSX left it out there for days, it is an extra movement and they can basically say "we'll get to it when we get to it." It is in the smae class as a light engine movement or equipment move.

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I should note for the record that if CSX did this, it would be totally, grossly illegal, and Amtrak would be allowed to apply to the STB for damages. I refer you yet again to the US Code:

© Preference Over Freight Transportation.— Except in an emergency, intercity and commuter rail passenger transportation provided by or for Amtrak has preference over freight transportation in using a rail line, junction, or crossing unless the Board orders otherwise under this subsection.

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There are no Board orders ordering otherwise. Let's go back a little further to the definitions:

(4) “intercity rail passenger transportation” means rail passenger transportation, except commuter rail passenger transportation.

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In short, ALL rail passenger transportation provided "by or for Amtrak" has preference over freight transportation. *Including charter operations*.

I know the Class Is are mostly run by total scofflaws who break the law on a routine basis and think nothing of it. But that's the law. Also worth noting:

(1) Amtrak may make an agreement with a rail carrier or regional transportation authority to use facilities of, and have services provided by, the carrier or authority under terms on which the parties agree. The terms shall include a penalty for untimely performance.

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All Amtrak agreements with freight railroads must include penalties for delaying passenger trains. Yes, even charters.
The next clause specifies that if Amtrak and a host railroad can't come to agreement, the STB can order the railroads to carry Amtrak on STB-prescribed terms.

It gets better. Amtrak is required to sue railroads (or at least take them to the STB) for allowing the track to deteriorate:

(4) Amtrak shall seek immediate and appropriate legal remedies to enforce its contract rights when track maintenance on a route over which Amtrak operates falls below the contractual standard.

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It gets even better:

If a rail carrier refuses to allow accelerated speeds on trains operated by or for Amtrak, Amtrak may apply to the Board for an order requiring the carrier to allow the accelerated speeds.

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And it gets even better:

(1) When a rail carrier does not agree to provide, or allow Amtrak to provide, for the operation of additional trains over a rail line of the carrier, Amtrak may apply to the Board for an order requiring the carrier to provide or allow for the operation of the requested trains.

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And of course, Amtrak still has the right to seize entire lines by eminent domain, if the STB approves.

Basically, the current state of the law is that the Class I's are absolutely required to give Amtrak priority under all circumstances. Amtrak can apply to the STB to force a Class I to run a train, and the STB can order the Class I to run it on whatever terms the STB likes; the Class Is have no recourse whatsoever. The only rights the Class I's have regarding this, is the right to get paid -- to get paid what the STB thinks is appropriate, not what the Class Is want.

Reviewing the state of the law, it is quite clear to me that NS & CSX's legal filings in the Capitol Limited delay case are frivolous. The law firm should be sanctioned for making frivolous filings, and so should NS and CSX. The STB probably won't do this, but they should. I know the crooks in the boardrooms would throw hissy fits, but a few large fines and some payouts from their D&O insurance might make them realize that *trying to do their damn jobs right* would be cheaper than abusing Amtrak.

neroden said:

Thirdrail7 said:

In other words, if CSX left it out there for days, it is an extra movement and they can basically say "we'll get to it when we get to it." It is in the smae class as a light engine movement or equipment move.

Click to expand...

I should note for the record that if CSX did this, it would be totally, grossly illegal, and Amtrak would be allowed to apply to the STB for damages. I refer you yet again to the US Code:

© Preference Over Freight Transportation.— Except in an emergency, intercity and commuter rail passenger transportation provided by or for Amtrak has preference over freight transportation in using a rail line, junction, or crossing unless the Board orders otherwise under this subsection.

Click to expand...

There are no Board orders ordering otherwise. Let's go back a little further to the definitions:

(4) “intercity rail passenger transportation” means rail passenger transportation, except commuter rail passenger transportation.

Click to expand...

In short, ALL rail passenger transportation provided "by or for Amtrak" has preference over freight transportation. *Including charter operations*.

I know the Class Is are mostly run by total scofflaws who break the law on a routine basis and think nothing of it. But that's the law. Also worth noting:

(1) Amtrak may make an agreement with a rail carrier or regional transportation authority to use facilities of, and have services provided by, the carrier or authority under terms on which the parties agree. The terms shall include a penalty for untimely performance.

Click to expand...

All Amtrak agreements with freight railroads must include penalties for delaying passenger trains. Yes, even charters.
The next clause specifies that if Amtrak and a host railroad can't come to agreement, the STB can order the railroads to carry Amtrak on STB-prescribed terms.

It gets better. Amtrak is required to sue railroads (or at least take them to the STB) for allowing the track to deteriorate:

(4) Amtrak shall seek immediate and appropriate legal remedies to enforce its contract rights when track maintenance on a route over which Amtrak operates falls below the contractual standard.

Click to expand...

It gets even better:

If a rail carrier refuses to allow accelerated speeds on trains operated by or for Amtrak, Amtrak may apply to the Board for an order requiring the carrier to allow the accelerated speeds.

Click to expand...

And it gets even better:

(1) When a rail carrier does not agree to provide, or allow Amtrak to provide, for the operation of additional trains over a rail line of the carrier, Amtrak may apply to the Board for an order requiring the carrier to provide or allow for the operation of the requested trains.

Click to expand...

And of course, Amtrak still has the right to seize entire lines by eminent domain, if the STB approves.

Basically, the current state of the law is that the Class I's are absolutely required to give Amtrak priority under all circumstances. Amtrak can apply to the STB to force a Class I to run a train, and the STB can order the Class I to run it on whatever terms the STB likes; the Class Is have no recourse whatsoever. The only rights the Class I's have regarding this, is the right to get paid -- to get paid what the STB thinks is appropriate, not what the Class Is want.

Reviewing the state of the law, it is quite clear to me that NS & CSX's legal filings in the Capitol Limited delay case are frivolous. The law firm should be sanctioned for making frivolous filings, and so should NS and CSX. The STB probably won't do this, but they should. I know the crooks in the boardrooms would throw hissy fits, but a few large fines and some payouts from their D&O insurance might make them realize that *trying to do their damn jobs right* would be cheaper than abusing Amtrak.

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Ahh. A jailhouse lawyer. Funny thing about them though. They can usually find documents, but have no interpretation to go along with them.

So, I'll try this one more time...speaking as not a jailhouse lawyer, but someone that has dealt with the actual situations and gets to see it.

What you posted is for existing, contracted service. CSX stated they would no longer handle any passenger trains beyond those scheduled. It is CSX's right to turn down requests for services that are not previously contracted for and can only be held responsible for same. In other words, they do NOT have to run charters or specials. They also DO NOT have to allow Amtrak to moves runs or stops that are not previously contracted for. They don;t even have to discuss it. In other words, train 97 doesn't currently stop at Ashland. If Amtrak decided it wants to stop a train there, CSX is under no obligation to accommodate the request...even in an emergency. This is why that state fair fiasco took the Governor's intervention to resolve.

A perfect example is the old defunct baseball special. It vanished because CSX didn't want to deal with it and the bad publicity that came after a few incidents. Since it was considered extra service, they canceled it instead of renewing the contract and making it work. All of Maryland's carping did nothing. CSX stated they

That is the interpretation, Neroden and for the record, it is not my interpretation. It is the legal interpretation that people that deal with the charters are briefed on.

This is one of the reasons certain specials aren't confirmed or announced until the last minute. CSX is under no obligation to allow them on the territory. Typically, they will allow them and an agreement is made for the particular move. However, when you sign on for extra service, you agree to a lot of things (such liability waivers, penalty waivers, etc) or the move is not made.

So, if the WPB special operates as an extra CSX, does not have to operate as they would a scheduled train. They don't even have to operate it at all. They can pretty much do what they want with it, because if you try to flex the language you listed above, the train (and others) won't run.

I do think it would be interesting to see Amtrak petition the STB for delay to an extra. I mean, they've had so much success thus far. :giggle:

I've seen them in action. Did someone mention Mercenaries?

I think I'll take the law as written over some anonymous person claiming to be an expert on the intertubes.