The Ocean: Less Motion?

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I just got back from riding Via's #14 (The eastbound Ocean) and the word from the crew is that more cuts are certainly coming to the Ocean. They don't know what exactly that means - could be reduced service to once or twice a week, or no service. My understanding is that there was a leak to the media that cuts are coming, but just exactly what that means was not disclosed.

If you ever wanted to ride it, I'd suggest doing it before the beginning of July, when the section of track CN wants to abandon could see its last train if no solution is found. There could be a reroute to save the Ocean, there could be a solution to the proposed abandonment, or the Ocean could go the way that the train to Gaspe went, which is to say no more.

Will the Ocean see its 111th Birthday? :unsure:
 
VIA Rail is just cutting more and more huh? I guess airline competition is one thing, another would be the service quality on the Ocean. That train used to have a full-service diner with meals cooked on board, like the Canadian, but was cut and cut to this point today. The mixed reviews of Ren cars, combined with unreliability, isn't helping either.
 
What a shame if VIA is reduced to nothing more than the Windsor-Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal-Quebec City corridor services. It sure looks like that is the way they are headed...perhaps the Canadian could be saved somewhat by being taken over companies like the Rocky Mountaineer....

If just the 'corridor' survives, at least it's better than Mexico..... :(
 
I just got back from riding Via's #14 (The eastbound Ocean) and the word from the crew is that more cuts are certainly coming to the Ocean. They don't know what exactly that means - could be reduced service to once or twice a week, or no service. My understanding is that there was a leak to the media that cuts are coming, but just exactly what that means was not disclosed.
Yes….recently news was spreading that the Tuesday train was being cut the end of May….and yes it was but nobody checked to see what was really happening.

Effective May 28, the Ocean will now depart Halifax on Wednesday, Friday and Sunday instead of Tuesdays. Still three trains a week each way.

Also in early March, VIA placed several cars in the Halifax Station for a week and a half for crew training. Besides the usual Ren equipment there was also a Chateau Sleeper that is normally in the consist for the summer. VIA has also been hiring in the Halifax area.

[SIZE=11pt]Perhaps I’m just optimistic but[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] I also take solace now that Lisa Raitt, the Federal Transport Minister (and member of Harper’s Cabinet) has said that VIA’s service to the Maritimes would not cease “because they have another route” available.[/SIZE]
 
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And watch out for Windsor services, which were cut back in 2012. That really got my goat.
[SIZE=10.5pt]VIA cut one roundtrip but there’s still four trains a day each way plus an additional 3 each way from the mid-point city of London (on two routes). Most of these trains provide a First Class option (called Business Class on VIA but closer to what Amtrak offers as Acela First Class)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Compare this to what Amtrak offers in a very similar market just over the river in Detroit: There’s three trains to Chicago plus an additional one from Battle Creek. [/SIZE]
 
Sorry to be blunt, but there are many Cassandras on this forum predicting the imminent demise of Via without much grounding in fact or context.

The bigger picture is this: After very reluctantly implementing massive fiscal stimulus in 2008 following the worldwide recession, the fiscally-conservative Canadian Conservative government has been trimming spending across the board to get the books back into the black. This certainly has affected Via Rail , and has resulted in service reductions. But as NS Via Fan has correctly pointed out, the reductions have been fairly marginal. In fact on the Toronto to Windsor run the only change was the elimination of the last train of the evening west of London ON on weekends.

Despite the cutbacks the overall rate of inter city passenger train usage remains higher in Canada than in the US. NS VIA Fan compares VIA's SW Ontario service with Amtrak's Michigan services. Another interesting comparison would be the VIA Corridor services with Amtrak California. There is approximately the same density of train service in both, but the population of the Canadian corridor is a little over half the state of California.

What about the future? The federal government will be in surplus in the coming fiscal year and there will be a federal election in 2015. This is not the environment in which governments cut spending. To be sure, VIA is subject to a reduction in grant for fiscal year 2014-15, along with virtually every other federal program, but given the Supplementary Estimates process this does not necessarily translate into actual spending cuts.
 
Okay, you have made valid points. And I certainly hope that things stay as they are, or hopefully even improve.

Unfortunately, the history of Via Rail, taken as a whole, is not very encouraging, as far as expansion or retraction goes.....
 
VIA Rail is just cutting more and more huh? I guess airline competition is one thing, another would be the service quality on the Ocean. That train used to have a full-service diner with meals cooked on board, like the Canadian, but was cut and cut to this point today. The mixed reviews of Ren cars, combined with unreliability, isn't helping either.
The Renaissance Diners were introduced on the Ocean over ten years ago. Since then, Budd Diners have only filled in occasionally when a Ren consist was out of service for modifications usually during the winter, but since the Ocean has gone tri-weekly......that has been even rarer.

Here’s a brochure for the Renaissance Diners when they first entered service (Easterly Class is now Sleeper Plus Class) Meals are not re-heated Microwave TV dinners! This brochure shows the re-plating of meals that are heated in convection ovens (not microwaves) in the adjacent service-car galleys. (the foil containers shown just wouldn’t make it through a microwave!)

I’ve had many meals in Ren Diners since their introduction and have found the meals just as good or better than a first-class airline meal which would be heated in a similar fashion. Granted.....you won’t get that cooked-from-scratch Bacon & Eggs Breakfast (and I miss that too).....but the hot Lunch and Evening Dinners are fine!

It’s usually the railfans still looking for that classic Budd Stainless Steel Streamliner experience who are giving the Ren Diners the mixed reviews. To most others, the meals are just fine.

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For as long as I've been a member on the forum there hasn't been a single VIA cutback or setback you couldn't spin into harmless irrelevance. Bravo.
Yes, optimistic when a member of Harpers Cabinet says the service will not cease!.....and the Transport Minister at that!

On another front.....several NDP MPs boarded the Ocean in Halifax today to head back to Ottawa in support of the continuation of the Ocean.(wonder if they regularly travel between the Maritimes and Ottawa on VIA? or are they usually on the 75 minute AC or Porter flight!)

http://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/ndp-politicians-taking-train-ride-to-promote-passenger-rail-in-maritimes-1.1741800

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/via-rail-supporters-push-for-maritime-line-to-be-saved-1.2583326
 
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Sorry to be blunt, but there are many Cassandras on this forum predicting the imminent demise of Via without much grounding in fact or context.

The bigger picture is this: After very reluctantly implementing massive fiscal stimulus in 2008 following the worldwide recession, the fiscally-conservative Canadian Conservative government has been trimming spending across the board to get the books back into the black. This certainly has affected Via Rail , and has resulted in service reductions. But as NS Via Fan has correctly pointed out, the reductions have been fairly marginal.
Tell it to Niagara Falls or Sarnia, who disagree.

In fact on the Toronto to Windsor run the only change was the elimination of the last train of the evening west of London ON on weekends.
Which breaks the ability to stay late in town. Span of service matters.
 
What about the future? The federal government will be in surplus in the coming fiscal year and there will be a federal election in 2015. This is not the environment in which governments cut spending. To be sure, VIA is subject to a reduction in grant for fiscal year 2014-15, along with virtually every other federal program, but given the Supplementary Estimates process this does not necessarily translate into actual spending cuts.
Hope you're right about that.
 
Tell it to Niagara Falls or Sarnia, who disagree
.
Niagara Falls? Really? Here it was the passengers who abandoned VIA.....not the other way around! Sure there were some that continued to ride VIA for the convenience of the one seat ride but once GO started the all day (every 1 to 2 hours) bus from NF to Burlington connecting to the GO Train into Toronto (plus the summer weekend train service) most deserted VIA for the more frequent and cheaper GO service.

Same thing happened when GO extended train service to Kitchener, passengers abandoned VIA for the more frequent and cheaper GO service, even if some runs involved a bus to train connection.

And if people were still riding the London-Sarnia portion of that run......perhaps there would still be a train service.
 
It is very difficult to argue that Niagara Falls is under served by public transportation. There are approximately 25 daily inter city coach departures between Toronto and Niagara Falls on Greyhound Canada and Megabus, a dozen combined train/bus services on Go Transit, dedicated weekend all rail services on Go Transit during the summer tourist season, frequent scheduled shuttles to Pearson Airport on Niagara Airbus and Jewell of Niagara, plus the Maple Leaf. Apart from the 80 mile journey being on the low end for intercity rail but and the high end for commuter rail, there is the infrastructure issue of the Welland Canal bridge, which must be raised for shipping traffic reducing reliability on the rail line.

In short it is difficult for rail to compete under current conditons. A few billion dollars might fix the problem, but I suspect there are more pressing places to spend that sort of money.

Sarnia is a different matter, and arguably it is underserved by public transit in general and rail in particular. One reason is that it is an easy drive of less than an hour along a 4 lane divide highway to London.

Since VIA cut back its second daily departure, it has established a through ticketing arrangement with Robert Q, which runs the airport shuttles to and from London. With that change there are several VIA departures to and from Sarnia via London daily, albeit most of which involve a "thruway"-style connection. Not ideal, but certainly no worse than the situation between Lynchburg and Roanoke, for example.

As far as the comment regarding evening service from Toronto to Windsor is concerned, I would agree that a full day span of departures would be desirable. VIA has cutback on evening trains, even while adding frequencies in the Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto portion of the corridor. The reason is that ridership is light for evening services. Cutting services from 4 to 3 per day between London and Windsor on Friday and Saturday nights only is consist with this overall practice.
 
Niagara Falls to Toronto counts would pick up easily, if there were an overnite Amtrak train from New York feeding it or running thru, opposite the Maple Leaf's schedule. Same thing going the other way......

And the same thing at Sarnia....if only Amtrak and VIA would restore the International....
 
Niagara Falls to Toronto counts would pick up easily, if there were an overnite Amtrak train from New York feeding it or running thru, opposite the Maple Leaf's schedule. Same thing going the other way......
Perhaps they might……but it was this schedules running opposite to the Maple Leaf that passengers recently abandoned VIA for and started riding the more frequent and cheaper GO service.

This was also the schedule that Amtrak’s overnight Niagara Rainbow connected into……a weekend only service for a couple of years in the mid 90’s.

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19950611n&item=0010

I rode the Niagara Rainbow a couple of times in ‘94/’95 but it didn’t appeared to be particularly busy.

Perhaps Amtrak could coordinate schedules at the border with the GO summer weekend service now.
 
Well, it does seem that VIA can't compete well with *much cheaper* alternatives from GO. But this price differential is almost entirely due to differences in subsidy levels -- it's not as if GO is a for-profit operation. This points to biases in subsidization, and if these biases continue, VIA is a goner.

If that means regular GO train services to Niagara Falls, Windsor, Sarnia, etc., then I wouldn't complain -- to some extent, one train operator is as good as another. But if it means buses caught in traffic on the QEW, bleah.

Having driven London to Sarnia, it is fairly uncrowded, though the drive is not what I'd call pleasant in the winter.

Unfortunately, thinking about it, the decision by US and Canadian Customs to delay and obstruct trains -- and to delay pedestrians and cars too -- has probably curtailed the market on all three of the southern Ontario routes (Sarnia, Windsor, and Niagara Falls). All three of these should be through routes crossing the border, based on population patterns and history. But given Customs's treatment of the Maple Leaf, it seems impossible.
 
Well, it does seem that VIA can't compete well with *much cheaper* alternatives from GO.
At Niagara Falls....probably not. At 82 miles its marginal if it should even be considered inter-city and not commuter territory. Wasnt there a similar dividing line when Amtrak was created?.......and thats why there were still some long-haul Penn Central and Reading passenger trains operating after May 1/71.

Perhaps VIA should be out of the Niagara Falls market altogether with GO handling the operation of the Maple Leaf on the Canadian side.

But London, Windsor and Sarnia are definitely Inter-city and should continue as VIA operated.
 
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I’ve had many meals in Ren Diners since their introduction and have found the meals just as good or better than a first-class airline meal which would be heated in a similar fashion. Granted.....you won’t get that cooked-from-scratch Bacon & Eggs Breakfast (and I miss that too).....but the hot Lunch and Evening Dinners are fine!

It’s usually the railfans still looking for that classic Budd Stainless Steel Streamliner experience who are giving the Ren Diners the mixed reviews. To most others, the meals are just fine.
Having just eaten in one of these diners, here is my take.

First, let me say that I was looking forward to riding on the 'Ren' cars for the first time, and 'sentimentality' for other equipment has nothing to do with my opinions on the 'Rens.'

The dining car was comfortable, nicely appointed, and had real dinnerware. The staff was attentive, friendly and did a great job at all meals.

The food, however, was not that good. In fact, while the coffee was definately better than that served in Amtrak diners, my breakfast was one of the worst meals I've ever had in a dining car. :eek: The omlette was worse than the ones served on Amtrak's Cardinal, and it came with potatoes that were okay, but the portion was tiny. The two pieces of toast that came with the omlette were nothing special, but was the best part of the meal, IMHO.

Lunch was not bad, but then I only had a salad. While it was better than most Amtrak salads, it was small and no roll, bread, or starch of any stripe, came with it.

For dinner, on the advise of a non-dining car crew member, I had the Hungarian chicken instead of the fish. Portions at dinner were small compared to what one gets on Amtrak or The Canadian. The chicken was okay - a somewhat bland boneless, skinless breast that was served on a bed of a paprika rice pilaf that was also blandish, plus there were vegies on the side which tasted better than Amtrak vegies, but that was tough to tell, as the portion was tiny - one small broccoli crown and one small cauliflower crown. An inoffensive, but boring to the tastebuds meal, that satisfied my appetite, but would leave big eaters still hungry. (Maybe that is why it is called 'Hungarian' chicken? :rolleyes: )

The preprepared hot meals use to have the starch, the veggie and the protien heated separately, but now they are heated as one and then the whole hot meal is just 'flipped' onto a plate or salad style bowl together and - poof- a gourmet dinning experience. :unsure:

In fact, one crew member I talked to who does not work in the diner told me they left being a server in the diner and switched to a different job because they were too ashamed to face diners with these premade meals.

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The 'Ren' sleepers had issues. My in-room 'couch' had a spring in the seat that was 'sprung,' plus the whole thing felt like it was leaning forward. A fellow passenger asked our SCA if the seats were adjustable due to the feeling that one was sliding off the seat due to its slope and was told that they unfortunately were not, and that more and more seats in the 'Ren' sleepers are doing this as the cars age. With the bed down I had the feeling like I was sliding off towards the floor all night. Due to the unavailability of replacement parts, when things break in these cars it is very difficult and/or expensive to replace things. For example the nice pull down window shade in my room had broken and just like in a number of other rooms it had been replaced with a flimsy cloth curtain held to the window frame with velcro. Also, for some unkown reason when they built these cars they made it so the bathroom light NEVER goes out, which was so annoying at night I finally took the comforter off the upper bunk in my room and wedged it between the bathroom door and the door frame to block the light steaming through. The best unique feature the room has is the ability to lock it. My SCA implored to everyone to make sure they left their room key behind because replacements are basically impossible to come by, short of custom creating new ones. The ensuite toilet in its own little room was a nice feature too.
 
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I hope it is true that the Ocean will not see any further reductions in service and that the rumors swirling through the train when I rode it are just rumors. I can see where the news that the train would no longer run on a certain day could make folks jump to the wrong assumptions. However, if it is the case that no further reductions in service are in the works, I think the conclusions reached by the crew are very telling. They would show a complete lack of trust and confidence in VIA management on the part of its employees. Even the training of new crew can easily be explained by the belief stated to me by a crew member that VIA's right hand does not know what the left hand is doing. I had one long time crew member say to me that VIA has pretty much done everything it can do to screw over the Ocean.

BTW, this lack of trust in management was evident on the Canadian in February too.

I do need to add that I think It is a credit to the professionalism of the crews I've had on VIA that they take pride in their work and do their best to provide top level service despite the uncertiany and issues they face in their workplace.

My advice for people to ride now comes from the fact that I had a chance to ride the train to Gapse and passed on it. When do the folks here who are so certain the Ocean is safe think I'll get a chance to ride to Gaspe? After all, Via says at its website that the service is only temporarily suspended. That is not what I heard from Via employees 'in the trenches.'
 
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Can I trade in AGR points for VIA points, just to ride the Ocean "one more time". Meh, maybe I dunna wanna ride the Ren cars after reading, Davy's report.

But it sure was a treat about five years ago, in winter, with the Budd consist, domes, sleepers, and diner, said the "Gumpy and crotchety old man..............." hahahahhaaa
 
Can I trade in AGR points for VIA points, just to ride the Ocean "one more time". Meh, maybe I dunna wanna ride the Ren cars after reading, Davy's report
After several trips in a old Budd Chateau (Shake! Rattle! Vibrate!) when they were filling in for the Rens a couple of winters ago.........Ill still take a Ren anyday!
 
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