Proposals for passenger service between Norristown & Reading, PA

Over here in the following post, there was an idea for passenger service between Norristown and Reading, PA:

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/58784-which-rail-advocacy-organizations-promote-high-speed-rail-northeast/&do=findComment&comment=507294

[...] fund a $50 million F40 and ex-METRA Gallery shuttle between Norristown, PA and Reading, PA to provide service to one of the nicest cities in Pennsylvania and bring economic benefit to its many transit-dependant residents. I'll fight for that. It will benefit thousands of people every day, provide vastly improved mobility, relieve massive congestion on U.S. 422, I-176, and the Penn Pike, and on and on.

Click to expand...

Some might wonder: What are the details? Not knowing if this was supposed to be more frequent commuter rail or less frequent Amtrak service, the thread is now in the commuter rail forum.

As the Reading, PA metro area has a population of 400,000+ while it appears like no rail service exists already for decades, it would be interesting to list all the theoretical options for this corridor.

Don't confuse a individuals pipe dream with a proposal.

Alright, first of all, I called this a pipe dream, because to think of it as any more than just a dream at this point would require me to put something pretty potent in my pipe and smoke it. I believe in regional rail serving many different cities. Just to name a few:

Norristown-Reading-Pottsville-Shamokin, connection to SEPTA electric to Philadelphia

Lansdale-Quakertown-Allentown-Bethlehem-Scranton, connection to SEPTA electric to Philadelphia

Harrisburg-Lebonon-Reading-Pottsville-Shamokin, connection to Amtrak Keystone

Those are just a few of the kinds of things I'd like to see running. I don't consider the later points on the first two reasonable. I can think of other services for New Jersey, but I've actually spent a little time doing feasibility studies on rail service to Reading, so thats the one I'm pushing hardest for.

Reading north to Pottsville is an easy hurdle to jump- its owned by the Blue Mountain & Reading Northern, who is not objecting to passenger service on its line, would really appreciate the extra revenue, and has committed to operate commuter trains for avoidable cost plus about 5%. Pottsville is extremely anxious to have that service- they have even built a large bus terminal called Union Station abutting the rail line, specifically designed to serve as a train station if a train ever ran. Running beyond Pottsville is starting to get into "Who the heck's going to ride it?" territory. Reading is a city with a city mentality and a fairly good bus network called BARTA that runs extremely frequent service in and around Reading.

The issue is the NS owned track that exists between Norristown and Reading, plus getting SEPTA to allow for a cross platform transfer of a service that would likely be a collaboration between BARTA and BM&RN. I've heard that it has some crowding problems, among other things, although at one point it was the flagship line of the mighty Philadelphia & Reading Railroad, and was 3+ tracks along a good portion of its route, being the primary conduit for bituminous coal heading to the tidewater port of Philadelphia, so adding capacity would likely be among the realm of the possible.

Equipment purchases and operations for the plan are highly based upon what I consider the gold standard model for initial regional rail starts- Nashville's Music City Star. Used METRA gallery cars being shoved along by F40s. Cheap, simple, easy, proves the model, and it has the lowest possible minimum above the rail height for entrance, thus allowing the cheapest possible station construction. I think bi-hourly service between Reading and Norristown could be commenced with a capital investment of around $50 million.

Expansion to Pottsville on a every-4-hours basis would require another train set. Expansion to Pottsville on a bi-hourly basis would require another two, and possibly a third. Running the thing hourly would probably start the point of calling for all new equipment, but by the time people start calling for that, the investment wouldn't sound that stupid.

One of the biggest problems with commuter rail starts in this country is people start dreaming on the grandiose side of the scale. They want all new cars, possibly EMUs (god Denver is such a joke!), hauled by the newest bloody engines available, with fully upgraded right of way such that they average higher speeds than any of the commuter roads in the northeast. NM RailRunner comes to mind. So when you sit around proposing this one commuter line between point A and point B, you are starting with at least 9 figures, possibly 10. And people start saying that its going to cost $1 billion to build, to move 50,000 people a year, so that its going to cost, $20,000 per rider, and so on and so forth. And they start talking about pork barrel projects, trains to nowhere, and on and on until you want to stuff the wags into pork barrels and pack them onto trains to nowhere from which they will never return.

A dear friend of mine within the Reading business community has the political clout and the money to back this proposal, and shove it along. I have been trying to muster their support. Without it, this really is a pipe dream. With it, the proposal might have a ghost of a chance.

Green Maned Lion, thank you so much for sharing this.

That contains a lot of very interesting information.

The reason that this thread was called "proposals" (plural), though I referred to the above concept as an "idea", is because there have been proposals for this corridor before, and of course in some way also past proposals remain "theoretical options" for the future.

If remembered correctly, there were two past proposals for this corridor:

1) Schuylkill Valley Metro proposal, that would have extended SEPTA service from Norristown all the way to Reading.

Was supposed to be mostly electric service, metro-style, project costs bundled with a lot of other projects would have been roughly $2 billion.

In 2002, the DVRPC, under former Pennsylvania Governor Mark Schweiker, pressed for federal funding.

In 2006, former Pennsylvania Governor Edward Rendell stated no funding would come and the project was dead.

Beginning in 2007, Montgomery County was studying possible new funding sources.

It still says on the DVRPC website:

"The Delaware Valley Regional Planning Commission, SEPTA and BARTA, Berks, Chester and Montgomery Counties, the City of Philadelphia, the Pennsylvania Environmental Council and the Reinvestment Fund were partners in a two-year study from 2000 to 2002 that explored how the SVM system would best serve municipalities along the route. The proposed train route had an estimate ridership of 50,000 passengers a day between Reading and Philadelphia by 2007. [...] The Schuykill (sic!) Valley Metro proposal is not currently active."

Click to expand...

2) R6 Norristown Extension Study project. It was basically to provide diesel service on the revived passenger corridor, and no major reconstruction of any platforms. If recounted correctly, then with new construction needed for any service west of King of Prussia and dual-mode locomotives for extra push-pull consists hauled, one idea for funding was a $2 toll on US 422 between Pottstown and King of Prussia. This project's cost would have been substancially lower than SVM, estimated at roughly $200+ million (2007).

From 2007 to 2009, the Montgomery County Planning Commission and others studied this project. In 2011, DVRPC cancelled the plans for the Norristown Extension.

These two are past proposals, still: What to think of them?

Was there any value to these past proposals?

Is there something to learn from these past proposals, so that a future (or revived past) proposal might be successful in a way that Redding and these many other communities towards Norristown on that corridor finally see passenger rail service?

Green Maned Lion said:

Pottsville is extremely anxious to have that service- they have even built a large bus terminal called Union Station abutting the rail line, specifically designed to serve as a train station if a train ever ran.

Click to expand...

South Bend, IN, has had the same for a while: the hub terminal of their local bus system abuts the rail viaduct, and it even has a back door on the second floor at track level. Only the platforms and a short bridge to that door -- and permission from the host railroad to stop trains on the busy mainline -- is lacking.

Equipment purchases and operations for the plan are highly based upon what I consider the gold standard model for initial regional rail starts- Nashville's Music City Star. Used METRA gallery cars being shoved along by F40s. Cheap, simple, easy, proves the model, and it has the lowest possible minimum above the rail height for entrance,

Click to expand...

Metra sold old cars not too long ago but is now scrambling to buy, or at least lease, some of them back. Apparently (1) they thought they'd be getting more new cars sooner than they actually are, and (2) there's a shortage of operable cars with some cars being rendered inoperable in the recent weather, or at least they want to be ready with more operable cars if when it happens again.

One of the biggest problems with commuter rail starts in this country is people start dreaming on the grandiose side of the scale. They want all new cars, possibly EMUs (god Denver is such a joke!), hauled by the newest bloody engines available, with fully upgraded right of way such that they average higher speeds than any of the commuter roads in the northeast.

Click to expand...

While I agree that some metro areas are discussing pie-in-the-sky gold-plated systems, I don't think its fair to lump Denver into that group and definitely not to call Denver "a joke". :blink:

1) It would be grandiose to pick EMU over simple commuter rail, but that's not what Denver RTD is doing. RTD is building light-rail lines where it already has some, to the south of downtown, and EMU commuter lines to the north. If the northern traffic would support light-rail, it doesn't sound grandiose to me that RTD chose EMU instead.

2) The line to the new airport will be (a) busy and (b) LONG! This sounds like a job for Superman EMU! :giggle:

Though this thread is about passenger rail proposals between Norristown and Reading, PA - here is an intermission about Denver...

John Bredin said:

While I agree that some metro areas are discussing pie-in-the-sky gold-plated systems, I don't think its fair to lump Denver into that group and definitely not to call Denver "a joke". :blink:

1) It would be grandiose to pick EMU over simple commuter rail, but that's not what Denver RTD is doing. RTD is building light-rail lines where it already has some, to the south of downtown, and EMU commuter lines to the north. If the northern traffic would support light-rail, it doesn't sound grandiose to me that RTD chose EMU instead.

2) The line to the new airport will be (a) busy and (b) LONG! This sounds like a job for Superman EMU! :giggle:

Click to expand...

Exactly about the "If the northern traffic would support light-rail, it doesn't sound grandiose to me that RTD chose EMU instead" part - it says in the FAQ of RTD about the North Metro Rail Line:

Q. Why not use light rail vehicles?

The freight railroads whose corridors we are sharing require RTD to use heavier commuter railcars that comply with Federal Railroad Administration safety standards.

Click to expand...

Probably the same for the new electric commuter Gold Line, as it says:

The Gold Line will run along the BNSF/Union Pacific railroad route from Denver Union Station to Ward Road in Wheat Ridge [...]

Click to expand...

And for the Northwest Line, it's not even EMUs, but Diesel...

What vehicle technology is planned for use in the Northwest Rail Line?

Diesel Multiple Unit (DMU) will be the commuter rail technology for the Northwest Rail Line.

Click to expand...

And as mentioned, for the East Line (to the airport), EMUs do seem to make a lot of sense. With the length of the line, a top speed of 79mph might going to make a difference compared to light rail's 55mph, and also the acceleration appears to be good. Also the 15 minute headways look very attractive. And it's a direct service to the airport terminal, not some one-and-a-mile-away-from-the-terminals-at-Aviation-Blvd "airport service". Now to some, the only missing piece to perfection in RTD's plans seems to be that they did not decide to use a more attractive exterior and interior design for their new EMUs (as mentioned in this conversation here: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/58558-commuter-rail-why-not-a-more-attractive-exteriorinterior-design/&do=findComment&comment=502965 ).

beautifulplanet said:

Was there any value to these past proposals?

Click to expand...

Yes.

Is there something to learn from these past proposals, so that a future (or revived past) proposal might be successful in a way that Redding and these many other communities towards Norristown on that corridor finally see passenger rail service?

Click to expand...

The local communities have to put up money and the state government has to put up money. This was manifestly not happening in Pennsylvania during the pendency of either proposal.
Also, hostility from the local commuter agency, or the local freight track owner, is disastrous. This has killed far too many Philadelphia-area proposals.

Green Maned Lion said:

Equipment purchases and operations for the plan are highly based upon what I consider the gold standard model for initial regional rail starts- Nashville's Music City Star. Used METRA gallery cars being shoved along by F40s. Cheap, simple, easy, proves the model, and it has the lowest possible minimum above the rail height for entrance, thus allowing the cheapest possible station construction. I think bi-hourly service between Reading and Norristown could be commenced with a capital investment of around $50 million.

. . . .

One of the biggest problems with commuter rail starts in this country is people start dreaming on the grandiose side of the scale. They want all new cars, possibly EMUs (god Denver is such a joke!), hauled by the newest bloody engines available, with fully upgraded right of way such that they average higher speeds than any of the commuter roads in the northeast. NM RailRunner comes to mind. So when you sit around proposing this one commuter line between point A and point B, you are starting with at least 9 figures, possibly 10. And people start saying that its going to cost $1 billion to build, to move 50,000 people a year, so that its going to cost, $20,000 per rider, and so on and so forth. And they start talking about pork barrel projects, trains to nowhere, and on and on until you want to stuff the wags into pork barrels and pack them onto trains to nowhere from which they will never return.

Click to expand...

GML:

Music City Star and RailRunner were cranked up in the same time frame. I was folloing the published and on-line discussions by and about each of these systems. Ihe contrast was astounding. As you stated RailRunner seemed to be running on a "money is no object basis: All new equipment, new alignment for a sizable chunk of the route, buying the necessary portion of the ex-AT&SF line plus quite a bit they had no real need for in the near term, if ever. etc. Music city star on the other hand picked a line the state already owned an upgraded it to the necessary extent only. About the only portion that would have seemed beyond that was a couple of relocations and the addition of signals. Signals could be argued to be necessary, however. A considerable amount was spent on track, but that was necessary. This was ex-Tennessee Central track, which at best was never over a secondary main status, and for at least 40 years prior to Music City Star a branch line near to and finally in bankruptcy. Even so, it did not even get a complete rail relay, only elimnation of the truly old and lightweight rail. Equipment was, as you said bought used, fixed up to the extent necessary and painted. I recall one outstanding example of doing more with less: They looked at the normal on-platform ticket machines used in most places and decided the cost was rediculous, so the used a modified pay-on-a-post box used for unmanned parking lots.

Alas, although Music City Star was intended to be the first of a series of commuter routes into Nashville, so far it is the only one. All the other lines, and for the most part lines that would have much greate demand, are on heavily used freight lines that would require massive investments in additional tracks to be practical for commuter train operation.

Thank you very much for your response.

Nathanael said:

beautifulplanet said:

Was there any value to these past proposals?

Click to expand...

Yes.

Click to expand...

It's the year 2014, and the residents of Reading, Pottstown and other communities along the route still don't have rail service, so both these past proposals were unsuccessful. Did one of them have more value than the other? Which one of the past proposals could serve as a model for future attempts in this corridor, or should it be Green Maned Lion's idea that would have the best chances of bringing rail service to the people, or some completely different concept?

Nathanael said:

Is there something to learn from these past proposals, so that a future (or revived past) proposal might be successful in a way that Redding and these many other communities towards Norristown on that corridor finally see passenger rail service?

Click to expand...

The local communities have to put up money and the state government has to put up money. This was manifestly not happening in Pennsylvania during the pendency of either proposal.

Click to expand...

Not being in possession of all the facts, was that really manifestly not happening, f.e. when governor Schweiker and DVRPC were asking for federal money, did they ask for 100% federal funding? Isn't it usually the case that the state offers to pony up some matching funds as well? And with the R6 Norristown Extension Study, wasn't the toll revenue some local funding as well? But independently from the past, which cannot be changed anymore anyway, working towards the future, which local or state money would be necessary? Or would one source of those two be enough? As far as I know, the R6 Norristown Extension was planned completely without federal funds as well (which supposedly would have speeded up the project's implementation for years).

Nathanael said:

Also, hostility from the local commuter agency, or the local freight track owner, is disastrous. This has killed far too many Philadelphia-area proposals.

Click to expand...

So what about not many Philadelphia-area proposals in general, but this corridor in particular: what degree of hostility from the local commuter agency is there? What degree of hostility is there from the local freight track owner? And how to overcome that?

beautifulplanet said:

Nathanael said:

Is there something to learn from these past proposals, so that a future (or revived past) proposal might be successful in a way that Redding and these many other communities towards Norristown on that corridor finally see passenger rail service?

Click to expand...

The local communities have to put up money and the state government has to put up money. This was manifestly not happening in Pennsylvania during the pendency of either proposal.

Click to expand...

Not being in possession of all the facts, was that really manifestly not happening, f.e. when governor Schweiker and DVRPC were asking for federal money, did they ask for 100% federal funding?

Click to expand...

I believe they did, though I may be mistaken (this is from memory). It's also possible that they proposed a state match which had not been budgeted for.

Isn't it usually the case that the state offers to pony up some matching funds as well?

Click to expand...

Yes.

And with the R6 Norristown Extension Study, wasn't the toll revenue some local funding as well?

Click to expand...

The toll revenue, unfortunately, was never successfully realized.

But independently from the past, which cannot be changed anymore anyway, working towards the future, which local or state money would be necessary? Or would one source of those two be enough?

Click to expand...

I think committed or budgeted money from either level would be quite adequate. Previous proposals have suffered from having no committed or budgeted state or local money, if my memory is correct.

As far as I know, the R6 Norristown Extension was planned completely without federal funds as well (which supposedly would have speeded up the project's implementation for years).

Click to expand...

Nathanael said:

Also, hostility from the local commuter agency, or the local freight track owner, is disastrous. This has killed far too many Philadelphia-area proposals.

Click to expand...

So what about not many Philadelphia-area proposals in general, but this corridor in particular: what degree of hostility from the local commuter agency is there? What degree of hostility is there from the local freight track owner? And how to overcome that?

SEPTA doesn't want to do ANYTHING beyond its current limits of electrification, except for possibly the West Chester restoration. SEPTA has had a record of being quite hostile to involvement in anything outside that, even when it already owns the tracks. Totally uncooperative.

CSX has been extremely resistant to expansion of any passenger service over any of the lines it owns.

NS... well, NS probably would make a deal for some price, but as with the rest of the Class Is, NS asks for a lot in exchange for passenger service. It gets hard to strike a deal without the cooperation of SEPTA.

To Green Maned Lion Who is the person/funder behind your proposal and what can we do to encourage new developments in the advancement of this project? I am a citizen and want to take action.

Why not just run diesel all the way to 30th Street?