Someone made a HUGE mistake..

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Steve4031 said:
Rare mileage? Wish I had been on it. Lol.
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Septa runs that single EMU a few times a day on the line Monday through Friday. Rare for Amtrak! Not Septa though.

As a tidbit I believe that this line has a 15 MPH speed restriction and it's cab signal equipped as this is old Pennsy trackage. That's IINM. Although I don't know how fast the Amtrak Cab Signals would display. Most likely a restricted signal. Just a guess.
 
I have to wonder if there will be a "promotional opportunity" next week for both conductor and engineer... :help:
 
This is not a joke for that crew. They may have operated their last Amtrak train for a long, long time.

How in the world does that happen? This is a crew that is qualified to operate a train at 125mph up the corridor, and they somehow run a train for over two miles up the wrong line on someone else's track passing two stations before stopping just about a car length from the end of track bumper. YIKES! I would have loved to hear the conversations with the Amtrak and SEPTA dispatchers as this was transpiring.

It's true that humans sometimes make mistakes, but this one is pretty hard to fathom.
 
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Help me understand this...

So they've left PHL headed eastbound with the cab car in the lead, correct? If they are having problems with the cab and want to flip the consist why not head back to PHL and do it there? And how did the crew not realize they were heading down a dead end?
 
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My understanding is that the train came in from Harrisburg to PHL and was set up to have the cab car lead from PHL to NYP. The trouble developed when the cab car would not communicate with the AEM7 pushing. With that issue, the cab car could not lead. The train would have to be reversed to have the AEM7 lead. Now, they could have run the AEM7 around the train at PHL, but it was decided instead to wye the train using the Zoo interlocking (about 2 miles north) and the old Pittsburgh Subway - a fly-under at Zoo that allows trains coming from the Harrisburg and the west to directly head toward New York without going to 30th Street.

In order to do that, the train was backed out of 30th Street with someone (conductor?) in the cab car communicating with the someone (engineer?) in the AEM7. The train was moved to Zoo and then west toward Harrisburg on the track that connects to the SEPTA Cynwyd line. The SEPTA Cynwyd Line leaves Amtrak about a mile west of Zoo. The intent was to move it just far enough west to clear the switch leading to the Pittsburgh Subway (well short of the SEPTA line junction), stop, reverse, and then move forward through the Subway to New York with the AEM7 leading in normal operation.

This is where things get weird. Instead of stopping where they were supposed to stop to make the move to the Subway and New York, they just kept on going. They went down the track, up the viaduct, off Amtrak and onto SEPTA-controlled track, past two stations and finally came to a stop at the third and last station just a car length or so from the end-of-line bumper. They took the train about 2.5 miles too far, two miles of which were on someone else's railroad.
 
PRR 60 said:
This is not a joke for that crew. They may have operated their last Amtrak train for a long, long time.How in the world does that happen? This is a crew that is qualified to operate a train at 125mph up the corridor, and they somehow run a train for over two miles up the wrong line on someone else's track passing two stations before stopping just about a car length from the end of track bumper. YIKES! I would have loved to hear the conversations with the Amtrak and SEPTA dispatchers as this was transpiring.It's true that humans sometimes make mistakes, but this one is pretty hard to fathom.
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Agreed Bill, it would have been bad enough to simply pass the first signal that they should have never taken. But to continue on onto tracks that they're not qualified and for such a distance is huge. In fact, I suspect that they've also committed a few FRA rules violations by operating on tracks that they're not qualified for and without a pilot. So even if Amtrak wanted to excuse their actions, and I rather doubt that Amtrak would do that, they'd still be likely to loose their FRA licenses. That alone would mean losing their job since they can no longer operate a train.
 
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AlanB said:
PRR 60 said:
This is not a joke for that crew. They may have operated their last Amtrak train for a long, long time.How in the world does that happen? This is a crew that is qualified to operate a train at 125mph up the corridor, and they somehow run a train for over two miles up the wrong line on someone else's track passing two stations before stopping just about a car length from the end of track bumper. YIKES! I would have loved to hear the conversations with the Amtrak and SEPTA dispatchers as this was transpiring.It's true that humans sometimes make mistakes, but this one is pretty hard to fathom.
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Agreed Bill, it would have been bad enough to simply pass the first signal that they should have never taken. But to continue on onto tracks that they're not qualified and for such a distance is huge. In fact, I suspect that they've also committed a few FRA rules violations by operating on tracks that they're not qualified for and without a pilot. So even if Amtrak wanted to excuse their actions, and I rather doubt that Amtrak would do that, they'd still be likely to loose their FRA licenses. That alone would mean losing their job since they can no longer operate a train.

I could give the conductor a little flexibility on this, as he has to look out the window to realize something is wrong, even as he/she is trying to take tickets. But there is no excuse for the engineer! Unless this was some test setup by Amtrak to see how dispatch would react, I think that engineer has driven his last train for Amtrak. At the very least, he's in for some huge retraining and a demotion to fireman if he manages to keep a job at all.
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Without knowing for sure, it may well be the conductor that was at fault. Someone had to be in the AEM7 that pushed the train out of 30th Street. That someone was probably the engineer. Someone else had to be in the cab car providing directions to the operator of the AEM7 by radio. That someone was probably the conductor. Presumably, the conductor was looking forward from the cab car and should have know that they were leaving Amtrak and on the wrong railroad. However, the engineer would have the view out the back from the AEM7, and he or she should also have realized that they were crossing the viaduct and leaving Amtrak. So, assuming the work was as described, there is blame for both.

I heard that once SEPTA realized what was happening, they killed power to the catenary on the Cynwyd Line. They likely feared this could be some kind of train hijacking with some goofball at the controls. I'm sure they never considered that a trained Amtrak crew could make a mistake like this.

This is one of the most bazaar stories I've ever heard. What happened is pretty clear. Why and how it happened is not.
 
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So first they didn't take the simple fix while still in PHL, and then they screwed up at the wye and it all went to hell in just over two miles. Would you theorize that they trying to save time or effort?
 
ALC_Rail_Writer said:
So first they didn't take the simple fix while still in PHL, and then they screwed up at the wye and it all went to hell in just over two miles. Would you theorize that they trying to save time or effort?
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My guess they feel it is less effort. To move the AEM7 from one end to the other, it requires an uncouple, then move the motor south out of the station, line the switches, move the motor through the station and position north, line those switches, then back in the AEM7, couple, and pull out. At some point, the AEM7 has to be repositioned back to its proper location, so it's more switching and coupling, maybe at Sunnyside (New York).

Assuming the fix is reasonably easy, by reversing the entire set save all that switching. The problem could be corrected by a tech at Sunnyside or elsewhere without having to break up the consist. At least that is my theory. That and $26 will get you a steak on Amtrak. :)
 
Texan Eagle said:
PRR 60 said:
They may have operated their last Amtrak train for a long, long time.
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But they can probably operate SEPTA now that they got themselves route qualified for that section :ph34r: :p
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Heck, that would be one of the half a dozen or so rules that they broke.... operating on a section for which they were not qualified. :) They had to bring in a SEPTA pilot and of course a new set of Amtrak crew to get the train back out to Amtrak territory.
 
An Amtrak train with 130 passengers took a wrong turn on its way to New York last week and ended up at SEPTA's Bala Cynwyd station.

"An investigation was launched and the crew has been held out of work until they can be fully debriefed and additional training can be conducted," an Amtrak spokesman said.
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Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/20131120_Amtrak_investigating_wrong-turn_train.html#IUDZqW0eBWh3MTGY.99

I wonder what does this mean "until they can be fully debriefed and additional training can be conducted"?
 
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Barciur said:
An Amtrak train with 130 passengers took a wrong turn on its way to New York last week and ended up at SEPTA's Bala Cynwyd station.

"An investigation was launched and the crew has been held out of work until they can be fully debriefed and additional training can be conducted," an Amtrak spokesman said.
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Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/20131120_Amtrak_investigating_wrong-turn_train.html#IUDZqW0eBWh3MTGY.99

I wonder what does this mean "until they can be fully debriefed and additional training can be conducted"?
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That's Amtrak-spokesman-speak.

"fully debriefed" = A formal investigation needs to happen. Either the crew did not know where they were and failed to stop right away, or they were operating the train unsafely - meaning that no one was on the rear end of the train to stop it if it needed to be.

"additional training" = If they didn't know where they were, they'll be disquailified from that stretch of railroad, including the point at which they started to go wrong. They'll need to get requalified if that happens. If they were operating the train in an unsafe way, penalties could be more severe potentially requiring a requalificaiton as conductor or engineer.

jb
 
According to some reports apparently the process has run its course, the crew in question have been debriefed and received necessary additional training, and now are back on duty.

As for being disqualified from the stretch of railroad where they went wrong, well since they were never qualified to be there in the first place and never will need to be there again, unless they make the same mistake again, I guess that point is moot. Although I suspect they did have to go through some sort of re-qualification for the Amtrak portion of the Cynwyd line (i.e. Cp-Valley and CP-Jeff or some such).
 
jis said:
According to some reports apparently the process has run its course, the crew in question have been debriefed and received necessary additional training, and now are back on duty.

As for being disqualified from the stretch of railroad where they went wrong, well since they were never qualified to be there in the first place and never will need to be there again, unless they make the same mistake again, I guess that point is moot. Although I suspect they did have to go through some sort of re-qualification for the Amtrak portion of the Cynwyd line (i.e. Cp-Valley and CP-Jeff or some such).
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Yes they ended up on a line where they were not qualified. But that's not where they got lost. Back on the line where they ARE qualified, they were routed to a line where they were not qualified. They should have known that - before they took the signal (if they could tell from the signal where they were going) or should have stopped and contacted the operator/dispatcher as soon as they discovered that they were going wrong. In other words, they didn't know their own territory well enough to know where its boundaries were.

I contend that they got lost on their OWN territory - before they even entered the completely unknown territory.

But that's the Rules Examiner in me speaking.

jb
 
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I have no doubt you are right. However, reports are that they are back on duty. So now I suppose if you do know any of the examiners involved, you may be able to find out exactly what happened and how they were processed and put back on duty so quickly. :)

Just to fill in a bit more from the grapevine.....actually reconfirming that John is correct, they should really have not gone past the reverse pot signal at JO Zoo on 4 Valley. It is Amtrak territory past that upto CP Valley. Beyond that is SEPTA. So yes they were lost on Valley 4 between the reverse pot signal and CP Valley in not realizing that CP Valley was the end of their qualified territory.

I guess in normal course of operation Amtrak crew never finds themselves on that track, perhaps leading to the lack of familiarity. I wonder if in course of training they actually run everyone up that track to CP Valley or they simply require that they answer the questions from the examiner about that part and be done with it.
 
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Now it has gone international: DailyMail

I LOVE the fact that they use a stock photo (without calling it such) of a locomotive not yet in revenue service!
 
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