The CZ #5 of the 19th of this month was a pretty full train - believe I heard some of the Amtrak crew talk about it being sold out btwn DEN and SLC... and it felt full, ie, there wasn't a lot of free space for anything - best to hunker down in one's seat and stay there [sSL was always full, still full at 2am with talkers (no lounge lizards); dinner seatings run until 930 (ours was 9pm), etc]. My question has to do with the cost of adding another coach car to a consist. I understand when a consist get's too long the train has to be double spotted at some stations. ... but given the "hot-rod" nature of a 9 or 10 car CZ, I'm assuming adding another coach car or two doesn't affect performance, ie, no need to add another loco and associated costs. Where does the added cost come in? Added staff? If so, is that a significant number/cost? Yes we were able to travel pretty much armpit to armpit with the cars we had... but wondering about the experience, and if adding one or maybe even two extra cars wouldn't have added to the experience for all concerned, and resulted in more believers for future trips (ie, return passengers). Or, is this a question of simply not being enough extra cars in the system to routinely add cars to fullish trains?
Related to: Why Americans don't ride trains
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Swadian Hardcore
Engineer
Often, Amtrak has so little equipment available that they just can't add all the cars to deal with capacity. I believe they do overbook by a set margin to make maximum revenue while accounting for cancellations and no-shows.
Even though Amtrak trains are often filled, many peope in America still have no idea they can ride a passenger train, and passenger-miles-per-capita is still nowhere near many foreign countries, especially Switzerland.
Even though Amtrak trains are often filled, many peope in America still have no idea they can ride a passenger train, and passenger-miles-per-capita is still nowhere near many foreign countries, especially Switzerland.
I'm assuming that coach cars - maybe mistakenly so - are cannibalized from other cars/systems and aren't bought new... my real question is: given the shortage of extra cars, what would it cost Amtrak to add one, two, a half-dozen to the pool? If they're cannibalized from elsewhere, then I'd suspect the first one or two come most cheaply, but as one eats through the available, then the cost per added car rises??
Swadian Hardcore
Engineer
No, most coaches are certainly built new! But like all Amtrak equipment, they rarely get built so they get old and there's lots of shortages.
the_traveler
Engineer
You said it was "armpit to armpit". Remember the good old days of airline travel when the middle seat (of a 3 seat row) was almost always unoccupied. Now it is almost always occupied! But people still fly. And in cars, buses, subways, etc..., it's the same.
So why do you say that people will not take trains again, when almost every other form of transportation (including elevators) are the same way? :huh:
So why do you say that people will not take trains again, when almost every other form of transportation (including elevators) are the same way? :huh:
N
Nathanael
Guest
About $1.5 million (conservatively) to buy the coach, and it has to be ordered 5 years in advance. Get the picture? :wink:
Really, that is literally the problem: Amtrak is short on coaches. Amtrak has some extra single-level coaches for short-distance corridors, but no extra bilevels. Adding extra single-level coaches to a bilevel train which runs for four days round trip is... really complicated, logistically.
Amtrak does sometimes add coaches to "corridor" trips when they fill up, particularly around Thanksgiving.
Yep.
the_traveler
Engineer
On the NEC around Thanksgiving, Amtrak does add extra cars. And/or trains. How? By borrowing the unused cars from commuter railroads (that are not being used around the holiday period)! That's how short of extra cars Amtrak is.
Barciur
OBS Chief
Look at this video.. this is what the Polish Railways put out EVERY DAY in the SUMMER for trains that go to the Baltic Sea (general vacation areas on the beach).
Yep, that is 16 cars.. not all of them are coaches, obviously, but still.
I wish we had this kind of a culture here and the reserves of cars like that! Yeah, they may not be painted the same way, and some of them are older and in worse shape than others, but at the end of the day, it gets us there, so all's good!
This is semi-related and slightly OT, but I hope you forgive me
Yep, that is 16 cars.. not all of them are coaches, obviously, but still.
I wish we had this kind of a culture here and the reserves of cars like that! Yeah, they may not be painted the same way, and some of them are older and in worse shape than others, but at the end of the day, it gets us there, so all's good!
This is semi-related and slightly OT, but I hope you forgive me
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Might be a question of duration? But my original point (or at least the one I was trying to make) was that maybe it would be in Amtrak's interest in adding an extra car anytime the loading get's near 75 or 80% (at least for the LD) trains... when there is not difference btwn flying cattlecars and Amtrak in terms of comfort (as you point out), and the flying cattlecars one only has to put up with such for maybe four hours, but like the CZ 38 hours... if that extra car might not be "cost effective"?? Just a thought. When I road the CZ in May the loading was 40%ish and it was a very very comfortable ride (almost felt like having a train to oneself); but this most recent trip: I had a good time, but that was mostly because of the good company, but I can imagine others not so lucky or trying to keep to themselves might have found the experience not so pleasant and wondering if maybe next time a flying cattlecar might be a better choice? Again: just a thought - but with the desire that more Americans choose to fly Amtrak vs the other brands, and wondering what it'd take to facilitate said migration/enlightenment, or at least not poison the well where first-timers get turned off and never come back.
Will they even mate? Seems the passageway btwn bi-level cars would be partially above the roof of a single level one...
Maybe it's my old eyeballs - but actually looks like a lot of the cars aren't anywhere near full... almost looks like my CZ trip in May. But I love the notion of having so many available cars that one can run a train that way... I wish.... now if the Congressthingies could just come to understand that starving Amtrak is not some demented form of patriotism. [i know, I know: the best government that money can buy.]
Related thought: on the LD lines (eg, CZ), how long of a consist can one run before they have to start double spotting a train - I assume there are some platforms where that occurs sooner than others... with a nine car consist there is obviously no problem - where does one start running into such problems: location wise and count wise? And are some lines more of a problem sooner than others?
Related thought: on the LD lines (eg, CZ), how long of a consist can one run before they have to start double spotting a train - I assume there are some platforms where that occurs sooner than others... with a nine car consist there is obviously no problem - where does one start running into such problems: location wise and count wise? And are some lines more of a problem sooner than others?
The SWC was like that during Thanksgiving last year. It made it feel like a party train. We ate dinner at 8:00, and there were still people being seated while we ate.
What's strange is that we rode Coach for Christmas the year before, and our car was only 30% full between La Junta and ABQ (we filled up with a HUGE family at KCY and then emptied out at La Junta). It was awesome, but I did feel sort of bad for Amtrak's revenue. The other cars were full, so I think it was just that fluke of having a gigantic party reserved for the KCY to La Junta stretch.
We ate dinner at 8:00, and there were still people being seated while we ate.What's strange is that we rode Coach for Christmas the year before, and our car was only 30% full between La Junta and ABQ (we filled up with a HUGE family at KCY and then emptied out at La Junta). It was awesome, but I did feel sort of bad for Amtrak's revenue. The other cars were full, so I think it was just that fluke of having a gigantic party reserved for the KCY to La Junta stretch.
Swadian Hardcore
Engineer
Only $1.5 million? A new modern Superliner these days would cost more like $4 million! The Viewliners cost, what, $2.3 million? $1.5 million for a Superliner was in 1978, there's been lots of inflation since then.
If you think 16 cars is a lot, think again! Indian Rialways regularly runs trains with 24 cars, and that's outside high-season! In high-season I believe they run extra trains, not extra cars!
But hey, it's not Amtrak strapped for cars, Greyhound is also running on shortages. ADA requirements have almost crippled the fleet of the mighty old operator, forcing them to get rid of all -12 and 'D3 equipment. Many have been transferred to Canada because they still have some miles left in them.
jis
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Yeah 16 cars is a short train in India. Even the higher speed Rajdhani Expresses on major routes are 18 cars all year round, not just in high seasons. As mentioned, in high seasons they just toss in a couple of additional 18 to 24 car trains.
Swadian Hardcore
Engineer
Barciur
OBS Chief
I know, I know.. I was talking more about developed countries
Swadian Hardcore
Engineer
What about China? They run huge amounts of cars too.I know, I know.. I was talking more about developed countries
At least CAF is pumping out Viewliners for Amtrak and MCI/Prevost are pumping out D and X buses for Greyhound. Viewliners aren't in service yet, haven't seen any of the 2013 Greyhound buses yet, they should be entering service right this moment.
While Amtrak is going to retire the Heritage cars with the Viewliners, Greyhound is so strapped for equipment that they have to keep the stinking G4500s even after these new buses come on line. I don't believe Amtrak is in a serious shortage for Diner or Baggage cars, so they can afford to retire the old Heritages.
ADA has gone too far.
jis
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I know I know.... I was talking of countries that do not run those long trains
Swadian Hardcore
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jis
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Oh man... now I have to explain an obtuse joke I was cracking at the expense of Barcuir? Good thing you get itYou? But you were talking about Indian trains, which are really long..... :wacko:I know I know.... I was talking of countries that do not run those long trains
Wait, I get it.
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Barciur
OBS Chief
While we're at this, and cracking jokes at me, which I dully take in h34r: let's just appreciate the fact that amtrak runs cars, and not this:
That would be interesting on a Keystone :giggle:
Now for something more serious.
Is it legal for Amtrak to overbook and make people stand if there is no seats? Esp since there are unreserved routes, like the Keystone on the HAR-PHL stretch. Obviously, it is in China and Indian, but it is in many countries in Europe (the mentioned Poland, Germany as well). If there is no room, you just stand. Would there be trouble and would AMTRAK be liable for something like that or not?
h34r: let's just appreciate the fact that amtrak runs cars, and not this:That would be interesting on a Keystone :giggle:
Now for something more serious.
Is it legal for Amtrak to overbook and make people stand if there is no seats? Esp since there are unreserved routes, like the Keystone on the HAR-PHL stretch. Obviously, it is in China and Indian, but it is in many countries in Europe (the mentioned Poland, Germany as well). If there is no room, you just stand. Would there be trouble and would AMTRAK be liable for something like that or not?
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amamba
Engineer
My h takes 66 everyday and some days ppl sit in the aisles bc there are no seats PVD - BOS.
Swadian Hardcore
Engineer
While we're at this, and cracking jokes at me, which I dully take in
This does occur on the most popular routes. I don't know if the FRA officialy allows it because there are no handlebars on most Amtrak railcars like there are on transit vehicles. Greyhound discreetly lets people stand on an overbooked bus, so Amtrak could do the same. Everybody intentionally overbooks by a set margin these days.
jis
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I am sure thankfully, FRA has no regulation disallowing standing passengers. Don't give them ideas. They could yet, in their infinite wisdom, require that all passengers be seated and belted in whenever the train is in motion.
MattW
Conductor
Well if they disallowed standing, they'd have to cut the lounge, diner, and require at-seat eating wouldn't they? I'm sure if the FAA and/or airlines thought they could get away with it, they'd remove/mandate the removal of the bathrooms on commercial flights and require everyone to be permanently seated.
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