Has anyone at Amtrak given any thought to gutting the 2 prototype Viewliner sleepers and sending them up to Elmira to be rebuilt (similar to what Amtrak is doing with 8400 at Beech Grove)? CFA is going to be building 130 Viewliners, so one would think they could outfit the gutted shells of the prototypes with Viewliner II components. They would also need to fit the prototypes with new trucks, because the prototype trucks were always problematic. This could bring the Viewliner sleeper fleet to 77 cars once the new ones are delivered. Thoughts?
Viewliner Prototypes
- Thread starter Amtrak839
- Start date
Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:
- Status
Acela150
Super Buff
If the prototypes were going to be rebuilt it would have been brought up in TIGER. The only prototype brought up was 8400. But keep in mind not all 130 Viewliners will be sleepers. I think Amtrak was very tight knit to CAF about the dimensions of rooms and what not. I think CAF will do the job right. BUT only time will tell!
The first prototype Viewliner 62090 (originally 2300) I believe is so far gone at this point as to be useless. It was stored dead in Bear back in 1998. Since that point it has been used as a mock-up for the new cars, as well as some spare parts I believe. And I think that I heard/read someplace that it's no longer even sitting on rails. It's been lifted off it's trucks and blocked up on the grounds of Bear. So I think that restoring it would be a monumental task and grossly expensive.
Viewliner 62091 (2301) was retired more recently, I think around 2003 or so. It could be restored more easily I suspect. However, I'm not sure if Beech Grove wouldn't be better at that. CAF is a new car builder, but to my knowledge they aren't an old car repairer.
Viewliner 62091 (2301) was retired more recently, I think around 2003 or so. It could be restored more easily I suspect. However, I'm not sure if Beech Grove wouldn't be better at that. CAF is a new car builder, but to my knowledge they aren't an old car repairer.
printman2000
Engineer
Unless the shell is really messed up, would the car not be salvageable using new parts being made with the new cars? I would think that the new interior modules would have to fit if they are going to make them fit in the older production Viewliners.
I just cannot image letting a perfectly good shell go to waste. Unless the shell is what is too far gone.
I just cannot image letting a perfectly good shell go to waste. Unless the shell is what is too far gone.
It's not just the shell for 62090, and I'm not sure what condition that is in. Again, I believe that the car no longer has any trucks. Most likely all wiring & plumbing needs to be replaced. The AC units are shot on that car. And it is even likely that the shell has been modified to permit standard window AC units while it was being used as a mockup. We're talking very big bucks here for a shell that's already approaching 25 years old.
And it's also quite possible that Amtrak may want to keep the shell as a mock-up for new lounge cars and even coach cars.
And it's also quite possible that Amtrak may want to keep the shell as a mock-up for new lounge cars and even coach cars.
I agree their is value in a mock-up particularly one that is from a former car. As much as we all want more cars it is important to remember a lot of work needs to go into that beforehand to make it as good as it can be.
On the new car front I am a bit disappointed that in Amtraks bid for Florida money it did not try to slide in a request for money to maximize the viewliner order. It is 10x easier to expand a current order than it is to start a new one.
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
Moderator
AU Supporting Member
Gathering Team Member
Viewliner is infrastructure for high speed rail exactly how?
The HSIPR funds are being used to purchase rolling stock. California, Illinois, SC, and Iowa all got grants to buy rolling stock. Illinois, as the lead state, submitted a joint $806 million dollar application with Michigan, Missouri, and Wisconsin for the Florida HSR funds to buy 100 bi-levels and 31 locomotives for a new mid-West fleet. So conventional trains with 125 mph max speed trucks are eligible.
But the Florida HSIPR funds re-allocation is going to be a very high profile and high competitive process. Really not the best time and place for Amtrak to seek funding to buy more cars for the long distance fleet. Might raise the ire of the anti-LD crowd. The mid-West and California group purchase, if it happens, would be a good time for Amtrak to buy Superliner 3s as part of a big group purchase at a lower cost than if Amtrak put out a RFP by itself. For that matter, there have been posts that Amtrak is thinking of exercising part of the option order for the Viewliners. But I suspect they want to wait until the FY2011 and FY2012 Capital funding amounts are known.
Amtrak likely could have submitted an application for the Florida HSIPR funds to buy the 40 Acela passenger cars and extend the maintenance facilities, which would have been a viable use of the HSIPR money. But they may have plans to fund the Acela purchase out of the FY2012 appropriation or even borrow the money & pay for it from increased Acela revenue. Getting the funding for the Portal bridge replacement and catenary & power upgrades in NJ while the money is available might be the better tactic.
As for resurrecting an old abandoned prototype, there are 130 Viewliners on order to start arriving in late 2012. Why spend the money and time on it?
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
Moderator
AU Supporting Member
Gathering Team Member
It is indeed the case that the 40 additional Acela cars + maintenance facility upgrade are nominally part of the 2012 appropriations at present. And indeed Portal and miscellaneous items on the Newark - Philadelphia segment in line with what is euphemistically being called Gateway Phase 2 are part of the application filed on April 4th for the Florida funds. That application also includes state match of upto $150 million from NJ for the Portal Bridge. Incidentally the Portal Bridge application was made once before by NJT when Amtrak was not allowed to participate, and was rejected in favor of sexier projects like in Florida.
The intended HSR work from that are:
1) CT Catenary on tracks 2 and 3 between County and Ham.
2) Some track realignments elsewhere in the Newark - Philly segment.
3) Installation of ACSES all the way from Newark to Philadelphia. That work is already ongoing but part of it will be funded out of this.
4) Portal replacement raising speed limit on the entire High Line to 90mph initially, and possibly upto 110 eventually. I bet PRR had never dreamed that would ever happen.
Oddly enough there is a small rump group of rail advocates in NJ and NY who appear to be opposed to replacement of the Portal bridge by a more modern structure. They have been trying to argue vociferously that there really is no need for additional capacity on the high line. Clearly they use smoking materials more potent than I can get my hands on
If revenue uptick continues as has been the case, Amtrak may be able to self fund some of the equipment acquisitions with commercial loans.
Interestingly, did y'all notice that the last uptick in revenue for Northeast Regionals making it marginally profitable above the rail, happened after the lower than low low bucket was added? Price elasticity at work again, when you can increase capacity faster than reduction in individual fares?
Coming back to Viewliner prototype, the Prototype shells are different from the production Viewliners Is and of course Viewliner IIs too. It does not pay to keep one offs in the fleet since it then requires keeping inventory around to deal with the one offs. They are better used for special purposes like design platform for new stuff etc., rather than mixing into an otherwise uniform fleet. Indeed, I am not sure how long Amtrak will actually keep even the one off prototype Viewliner Diner around, unless they can make it pretty much maintenance inventory compatible with the existing and being acquired fleet. Unlike in our favorite HO sets in our basement there are real significant costs involved in keeping non-standard stuff around.
NE933
Conductor
I usually attack choices based on sexiness alone; but Jis, we do see that some sexiness is necessary. Especially when I'm all alone in a Viewliner Roomette sprawled out on the lower berth with that come-hither-to look, awaiting for my partner for the next two hours... >|
Why not start the CT catenary right after Elizabeth (Elmora)? From there to Union it's a straight RR that already witnesses 125mph Keystones and Acelas. Take it through curvy Metropark and Metuchen and as soon Edison appears start CT again. Coming out of the yard between Metuchen and Edison is again a nearly straight RR, save for the verrrrry mild sweeps thru New Brunswick that are barely noticeable.The intended HSR work from that are:
1) CT Catenary on tracks 2 and 3 between County and Ham.
2) Some track realignments elsewhere in the Newark - Philly segment.
*#3 cut out of response*
4) Portal replacement raising speed limit on the entire High Line to 90mph initially, and possibly upto 110 eventually. I bet PRR had never dreamed that would ever happen.
Track realignments I'd vote for Elizabeth's (picture Vanna White) letter 'S', assuming it's feasable enought. There are now parking lots, prisons, and housing that will make it difficult for a surveyor to decide where the kink in the route can go.
Finally, the speed limit on the High Line betwwen Newark and NY Penn: why can't it be used already at 90mph? Or 110mph.? Twenty years ago 18 car Silver Florida trains and Crescents to New Orleans flew thru the curve just East of the PATH Harrison Station at least 60mph. Now all traffic crawls, clogging up all the interlockings and making the Metroliners' once 12 min timing from NY Penn to Newark now a frustrating 14+ minutes.
Please enlighten me.
I guess I gotta try some, but I don't know. There are four meds alone on my shelf from my shrink. All these materials may not play nice, know what i mean..?..Oddly enough there is a small rump group of rail advocates in NJ and NY who appear to be opposed to replacement of the Portal bridge by a more modern structure. They have been trying to argue vociferously that there really is no need for additional capacity on the high line. Clearly they use smoking materials more potent than I can get my hands on
;-)
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
Moderator
AU Supporting Member
Gathering Team Member
Because CT Catenary costs money and it is not necessary for 125mph, and there are no plans to raise the speed limit above 125mph on tracks 2 and 3 in that segment. 1 and 4 will remain at 90 or 100 like it is now. They will do CT from New Brunswick to Morrisville. If there is enough money they will do all four tracks, and if not they will do only the two center tracks. In any case they will replace all the cross hangers by solid beams at each pole to increase reliability and stability of the catenary, wherever they do any CT catenary work. This is part of the $450 million requested from the Florida funds.Why not start the CT catenary right after Elizabeth (Elmora)? From there to Union it's a straight RR that already witnesses 125mph Keystones and Acelas. Take it through curvy Metropark and Metuchen and as soon Edison appears start CT again. Coming out of the yard between Metuchen and Edison is again a nearly straight RR, save for the verrrrry mild sweeps thru New Brunswick that are barely noticeable.The intended HSR work from that are:
1) CT Catenary on tracks 2 and 3 between County and Ham.
2) Some track realignments elsewhere in the Newark - Philly segment.
*#3 cut out of response*
4) Portal replacement raising speed limit on the entire High Line to 90mph initially, and possibly upto 110 eventually. I bet PRR had never dreamed that would ever happen.
The other segment where CT catenary will take precedence is Wilmington to Baltimore, but parts of that will await action until the three river bridges (Bush, Gunpowder and Susquehanna) are replaced supposedly each two track bridge to be replace by new 3 track bridge. Ragan to Prince will probably get CT catenary first in that segment.
This will probably not be attacked in this round, since it would require going out of the current ROW and would require a NEPA EIS, which is not in progress. ARRA and HISPR funds cannot be used for construction that has not already cleared that stage. HISPR funds can be used to do NEPA work, but that is not part of what is in the $450 million request, or so says Drew Galloway and he ought to know.
The speed was never 90mph for the entire length of the High Line. It was 80mph for a few segments in the PRR days. Portal Bridge was always and is 60mph. Back then FRA did not impose a 45mph speed restriction on the Harrison curve like it does now. Currently there are portions of the High Line with 90mph. Replacement of Portal with the new high fixed bridge will make it a 90 mph railraod all the way from Rea to Bergen.
- Status
Latest posts
-
St. Paul, Milwaukee, Chicago (TCMC) second daily service- Latest: TransitTyrant
-
-
-
-
