An absurd Viewliner Sleeper idea of mine

For the sake of making this simple, let's assume that there are 2 Viewliner sleeping cars on the end of the Silver Meteor.

This is the current Viewliner Sleeping car. It has 12 roomettes, 2 bedrooms, and 1 handicapped bedroom. It also has one public shower, and a roomette for the car attendant:



Each Viewliner sleeper car thus has 15 total rooms, and a normal possible occupancy of 30 passengers (ignoring the "I want to put 3 people in a roomette/bedroom" scenario). If we count rooms in both cars, that's a total of 30 rooms, and 60 passengers.

It seemed to me that there was wasted space in this layout due to using both bedrooms and roomettes within the same car space.

Instead, I've attempted to split those 2 Viewliner "bedroom/roomette" car layouts into their own layout.

Viewliner Car One would be the Roomette car. It has 20 roomettes, one public shower, and a roomette for the car attendant:



Viewliner Car Two would be the Bedroom car. It has 7 bedrooms, 1 handicapped bedroom, a roomette for the car attendant, and a private Sleeper Lounge for both cars' occupants:



Car One has 20 rooms and a possible total of 40 passengers. Car Two has 8 rooms and a possible total of 16 passengers, for a combined total of 28 rooms and 56 passengers.

Positives: More bedrooms, sold at a higher price point. Private sleeper lounge space lets sleeper passengers have an extra perk, and frees up cafe/lounge car for coach passengers.

Negatives: 2 fewer rooms, 4 fewer total passengers. Only one handicapped bedroom per two cars (ADA violation?). Separating bedrooms from roomettes means needing to pair 2 specific car layouts together, rather than any 2 current viewliner cars.

Comments/jeers/etc. are welcome.

I prefer current configuration, we travel H room and have been turned away with 2 per train, 1 would make it difficult.

Hamhock said:

For the sake of making this simple, let's assume that there are 2 Viewliner sleeping cars on the end of the Silver Meteor.
This is the current Viewliner Sleeping car. It has 12 roomettes, 2 bedrooms, and 1 handicapped bedroom. It also has one public shower, and a roomette for the car attendant:

Each Viewliner sleeper car thus has 15 total rooms, and a normal possible occupancy of 30 passengers (ignoring the "I want to put 3 people in a roomette/bedroom" scenario). If we count rooms in both cars, that's a total of 30 rooms, and 60 passengers.

It seemed to me that there was wasted space in this layout due to using both bedrooms and roomettes within the same car space.

Instead, I've attempted to split those 2 Viewliner "bedroom/roomette" car layouts into their own layout.

Viewliner Car One would be the Roomette car. It has 20 roomettes, one public shower, and a roomette for the car attendant:

Viewliner Car Two would be the Bedroom car. It has 7 bedrooms, 1 handicapped bedroom, a roomette for the car attendant, and a private Sleeper Lounge for both cars' occupants:

Car One has 20 rooms and a possible total of 40 passengers. Car Two has 8 rooms and a possible total of 16 passengers, for a combined total of 28 rooms and 56 passengers.

Positives: More bedrooms, sold at a higher price point. Private sleeper lounge space lets sleeper passengers have an extra perk, and frees up cafe/lounge car for coach passengers.

Negatives: 2 fewer rooms, 4 fewer total passengers. Only one handicapped bedroom per two cars (ADA violation?). Separating bedrooms from roomettes means needing to pair 2 specific car layouts together, rather than any 2 current viewliner cars.

Comments/jeers/etc. are welcome.

Click to expand...

The Sleeper lounge seems a little small, maybe better use as ?????

Interesting concept!

You also have the problem that if one were bad ordered, you would have to find another just like it. Right now, they could put ANY viewliner in to replace a bad one. So where they might store one car they would have to store two.

I cannot really explain it that well, but just the logistics of two different cars that have to be together can get very complicated.

Those bedrooms are mighty expensive and may not sell. Just my 2c.

I kind of like it ! I agree with what "Rail Freak" pointed out that the sleeper lounge is too small. How about turning this into a family bedroom with a total of 4 beds? You may want to add a second shower to the all roomette only car. One shower may not be enough to handle the demand of 20 roomettes.

printman2000 said:

You also have the problem that if one were bad ordered, you would have to find another just like it. Right now, they could put ANY viewliner in to replace a bad one. So where they might store one car they would have to store two.

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Yep, this would increase the number of spare cars required.

Even worse, if the existing cars aren't reconfigured, there'd be three styles of single level sleeper instead of one.

Thanks for the feedback, everyone! Some very good points made. It's very difficult to find space to put a sufficient sleeper lounge in the car. I suppose a second handicapped bedroom could be added there instead. That would also add more revenue.

With more full bedrooms available, the pricing for them could be lowered in each bucket, making it easier and more tempting to upgrade.

I guess my initial thought about the separate car layouts was to assume there were sufficient extra cars in reserve of each type for swapping out in case of one being bad ordered. It certainly wouldn't be as easy as just substituting any diner car or cafe/lounge car (I know I wouldn't want to be downgraded from bedroom to roomette due to equipment issues!)

In any event, it was an enjoyable exercise to attempt a reconfiguration of the existing layout.

printman2000 said:

You also have the problem that if one were bad ordered, you would have to find another just like it. Right now, they could put ANY viewliner in to replace a bad one. So where they might store one car they would have to store two.
I cannot really explain it that well, but just the logistics of two different cars that have to be together can get very complicated.

Click to expand...

This is the biggest problem. It removes the flexibility of replacing bad ordered sleepers. right now they can take any of the Viewliners and switch between the various routes and have a viable fix. With the widely different layouts, that flexibility would be lost and passengers with specific reservations would be out of luck. If there were adaquate sleepers in the inventory, the idea of having two standard viewliners and one with more bedrooms would be interesting.

All other points well taken, I would think the best use for the "Sleeper Lounge" would be as a surplus restroom for those in roomettes who are not comfortable either using the facilities in the presence of another, or sleeping right next to an in-use toilet.

The Metropolitan said:

All other points well taken, I would think the best use for the "Sleeper Lounge" would be as a surplus restroom for those in roomettes who are not comfortable either using the facilities in the presence of another, or sleeping right next to an in-use toilet.

Click to expand...

I'll put in a vote for dropping a roomette (maybe two) in the roomette-only car and replacing it with two small restrooms (or four). And then removing the toilets from the roomettes themselves. But that's in the dream-world where Amtrak has so much equipment they can have multiple sleeper configurations on a given route.

In the real world, I'd like the next order of 50 regular Viewliners to have toilets separate from roomettes somehow, but I'm not sure how best that can be done in a way that keeps revenue where it needs to be. Would a regular Viewliner work with eleven revenue-roomettes (no toilets), one "two small restrooms", one "shower and larger restroom", and one attendant room, plus the existing bedrooms A, B, H? By "work", I guess I mean, is having three in-car toilets sufficient for the passenger-load (I think so); and is having one fewer revenue-roomette ok (again, I think so, especially since it makes the revenue roomettes nicer IMO).

wayman said:

By "work", I guess I mean, is having three in-car toilets sufficient for the passenger-load (I think so)

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I would say yes! Coaches only have 2 in-car toilets, and they each carry a few more than 20-30 passengers!

haolerider said:

printman2000 said:

You also have the problem that if one were bad ordered, you would have to find another just like it. Right now, they could put ANY viewliner in to replace a bad one. So where they might store one car they would have to store two.
I cannot really explain it that well, but just the logistics of two different cars that have to be together can get very complicated.

Click to expand...

This is the biggest problem. It removes the flexibility of replacing bad ordered sleepers. right now they can take any of the Viewliners and switch between the various routes and have a viable fix. With the widely different layouts, that flexibility would be lost and passengers with specific reservations would be out of luck. If there were adaquate sleepers in the inventory, the idea of having two standard viewliners and one with more bedrooms would be interesting.

Click to expand...

Even if one does have adaquate sleepers in inventory, one must consider the fact that a sleeper just sitting in a yard awaiting the hope that another one fails is a very poor use of available funds. Yes, one always needs to have a backup or two around, but having 5 or 6 sleepers just sitting around is not cost effective. You're paying to buy those cars (perhaps even a loan with interest), you're paying to keep those cars working, and yet they're not earning one dime of revenue for you. Not the best plan IMHO, even if one does have lots of money, unlike Amtrak.

They'd be better served building viewliner slumbercoaches.

I don't think one shower is enough for one car with 20 roomettes. One shower for 40 people?!!! That is worse than my freshman college dorm.

amamba said:

I don't think one shower is enough for one car with 20 roomettes. One shower for 40 people?!!! That is worse than my freshman college dorm.

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The Superliner sleeper has one shower for 33 people and it seems to work.

Especially since water, and hot water in particular, is very limited on the train.

I personally think the all Rommette car makes alot of sense... course I hardly ever ride in a Bedroom so that's prob. why.

Green Maned Lion said:

They'd be better served building viewliner slumbercoaches.

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If you someday in a few decades are so rich that you can afford to own a private car, are you going to buy yourself a slumbercoach car?

TVRM610 said:

I personally think the all Rommette car makes alot of sense... course I hardly ever ride in a Bedroom so that's prob. why.

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The existing Viewliner Sleepers are 80% roomette, if you go by nominal revenue room count on cars that aren't serving as crew dorms. Not that far off from all roomette.

If Amtrak does do redesigns in the future, it would be great if they'd look for ways to have something bigger than a roomette that didn't scare tall people away on the bunk length. The Accessible Bedroom on the Superliners works for that (if you don't mind being on the lower level), but there's no option on the single level trains short of chartering a private car.

Joel N. Weber II said:

Green Maned Lion said:

They'd be better served building viewliner slumbercoaches.

Click to expand...

If you someday in a few decades are so rich that you can afford to own a private car, are you going to buy yourself a slumbercoach car?

Click to expand...

No, I'd buy an Amfleet and make it into a business car. Slumbercoaches would allow Amtrak to offer a very reasonable sleeper accommodations. It could be an all duplex-roomette car, since the Roomette is essentially a double-roomette. So each car could hold 38 people in private sleeper accommodations. Or build the bed wider and allow for up to 76 people to ride. VERY intimate people. Compare this to the 30 people a Viewliner can hold, and thats if all rooms are full.

Green Maned Lion said:

Slumbercoaches would allow Amtrak to offer a very reasonable sleeper accommodations. It could be an all duplex-roomette car, since the Roomette is essentially a double-roomette. So each car could hold 38 people in private sleeper accommodations.

Click to expand...

And what advantage does this have over the all-roomette arrangement proposed above, with 40 people?

Hamhock said:

For the sake of making this simple, let's assume that there are 2 Viewliner sleeping cars on the end of the Silver Meteor.
This is the current Viewliner Sleeping car. It has 12 roomettes, 2 bedrooms, and 1 handicapped bedroom. It also has one public shower, and a roomette for the car attendant:

Each Viewliner sleeper car thus has 15 total rooms, and a normal possible occupancy of 30 passengers (ignoring the "I want to put 3 people in a roomette/bedroom" scenario). If we count rooms in both cars, that's a total of 30 rooms, and 60 passengers.

It seemed to me that there was wasted space in this layout due to using both bedrooms and roomettes within the same car space.

Instead, I've attempted to split those 2 Viewliner "bedroom/roomette" car layouts into their own layout.

Viewliner Car One would be the Roomette car. It has 20 roomettes, one public shower, and a roomette for the car attendant:

Viewliner Car Two would be the Bedroom car. It has 7 bedrooms, 1 handicapped bedroom, a roomette for the car attendant, and a private Sleeper Lounge for both cars' occupants:

Car One has 20 rooms and a possible total of 40 passengers. Car Two has 8 rooms and a possible total of 16 passengers, for a combined total of 28 rooms and 56 passengers.

Positives: More bedrooms, sold at a higher price point. Private sleeper lounge space lets sleeper passengers have an extra perk, and frees up cafe/lounge car for coach passengers.

Negatives: 2 fewer rooms, 4 fewer total passengers. Only one handicapped bedroom per two cars (ADA violation?). Separating bedrooms from roomettes means needing to pair 2 specific car layouts together, rather than any 2 current viewliner cars.

Comments/jeers/etc. are welcome.

Click to expand...

I really like your thought process and think it would work great with a few tweaks here and there - lack of bathrooms and showers for roomettes may be a problem. I would even carry the new configuration a step further in trying to attract the wealthy traveler by turning 3 bedrooms into 2 nice, big ones and raising the price by 60 to 70 percent. I believe this would attract new passengers and give those who travel firstclass on planes and pay equally exorbitent prices for suites on cruise ships an alternative. There is a large group of people out there that need to be able to feel they are a little better and to be able to show it. There also those that might just want to splurge on a special occassion now and then.

I really believe that Amtrak, when and if it ever revamps its sleeper fleet, needs to take the above mentioned segment of our population into consideration along with the increasing numbers of foriegn travelers who, for the most part, love rail travel.

Hamhock, I think your idea is brilliant!!!!! :wub:

While on my travels, and after reading about the possibility that Amtrak might buy/build more Viewliners, I have pondered how they could be improved. I think you are certainly nailed it, dead on.

Some minor comments...

I would eliminate the "H" bedroom completely. I am kind-of torn on what of two alternate possibilities. One would be that regular roomette, not a bedroom, should be handicap accessible. If I am remembering correctly, the old Heritage cars had a handicapped roomette. The other one would be that, in today's PC environment, that all bedrooms should be handicapped accessible, eliminate the need for just one special room.

I think one could get away with just one attendant's room between the two cars. What I have found, is that attendants are VERY protective of their cars. Because of that, the purposed bedroom car's lounge would not be open to use by the roomette car's passengers. Well, unless, the same attendant served both, and knew the passengers on both.

There is a linen closet in the current Viewliner between rooms A and 1.

wayman said:

I'll put in a vote for dropping a roomette (maybe two) in the roomette-only car and replacing it with two small restrooms (or four). And then removing the toilets from the roomettes themselves. But that's in the dream-world where Amtrak has so much equipment they can have multiple sleeper configurations on a given route.
In the real world, I'd like the next order of 50 regular Viewliners to have toilets separate from roomettes somehow, but I'm not sure how best that can be done in a way that keeps revenue where it needs to be. Would a regular Viewliner work with eleven revenue-roomettes (no toilets), one "two small restrooms", one "shower and larger restroom", and one attendant room, plus the existing bedrooms A, B, H? By "work", I guess I mean, is having three in-car toilets sufficient for the passenger-load (I think so); and is having one fewer revenue-roomette ok (again, I think so, especially since it makes the revenue roomettes nicer IMO).

Click to expand...

Oh, gosh, that would be my first nightmare.

I think the Viewliners roomettes are way, way better than the Superliner roomettes, for one reason is because they have their own toilets!!! IMHO, it would be one rather major negative if I would have to (1) wait in line to use a toilet and (2) have to get dressed to use a toilet (no 2am quick pee's). I would demand (by constant harassment of my congressmen) that Amtrak cut the Viewliner roomette accommodation charge by at least 70% if they lost the private toilet.

I think the Sleeper Lounge is a badly needed facility for the LD trains which use Viewliners.

I envision it as being the place where the refreshments (coffee, juice, water, etc) can not only be accessed, but also offer a chair or two, to sit away from one's roomette (or I guess bedroom too). One of the things I like about Amtrak LD trains, are the people I meet. Today, that is really limited to being seated at the same table in the Dining Car. A Sleeper Lounge would offer another opportunity.