Palmetto 89 Incident in Chester, Pa. (4/3/16)

[CCC1007]

And also, I found the speed was between 50 and 60 MPH at the time of the accident, however, is it known yet whether the engineer used his brakes or not?

Because, it sure was unusual for it to travel a mile after it derailed. Never in my life have I ever known a train to travel a mile after derailing, especially after hitting a heavy duty vehicle.

back in the late 70's in the St. Louis area, there was a roadrailer train that had one trailer hop off the track. The train traveled four miles with this single axle off the rail before it rerailed it's self on a trailing point switch. All of the BN officials that were called in when the dispatcher had issues lining up the next train through the area were floored that this was even possible. It is not unheard of for a single axle derailed to not provide sufficient friction to compensate for the lost braking power. As the above story, paraphrased from a firsthand account published in Trains Magazine post 2000, clearly demonstrates.

 

[hhswami]

I would think the forward facing video camera in the cab will have much to tell about how this happened, and possibly give clues as to why.

 

[cirdan]

One should never depend on a lightweight track equipment to provide the shunt for affecting the signaling system They are known not to be too reliable at that.

This, and furthermore, when one track of a multi track line is being worked on, isn't there normally a lookout guy to warn workers of approaching trains.

If this guy sees a train coming on the wrong line, shouldn't he signal to the train to stop or else raise hell so that anything blocking the line can be cleared away?

 

[jis]

All of those things while true, would not give anyone enough time to actually achieve the desired goal when the train is doing 110mph, that is close to two miles a minute (1.83 miles).

Clearly there are several things that went wrong in terms of track possession and protection etc. The fact that there was a change in shift from night shift to day shift just before the incident may have relevance in terms of what information regarding the nature of the possession was transmitted from the outgoing foreman to the incoming one too.

Just let us please wait for the NTSB.

 

[John Bobinyec]

One should never depend on a lightweight track equipment to provide the shunt for affecting the signaling system They are known not to be too reliable at that.

This, and furthermore, when one track of a multi track line is being worked on, isn't there normally a lookout guy to warn workers of approaching trains.

If this guy sees a train coming on the wrong line, shouldn't he signal to the train to stop or else raise hell so that anything blocking the line can be cleared away?

With trains moving at normal speed, it's too late to clear the track if something is blocking it. That's why you can't foul a track AT ALL without getting the proper authority to do so.

Besides, the usual warning system, as I recall, is for the lookout to raise a white paddle. Then a horn is sounded. The workers can hear the horn above the din of their track machinery, but the horn means that there's a train approaching on an adjacent track. There is no horn signal denoting that a train is approaching on the same track as the track machinery because it should never happen. And if anyone tries to yell over the din of the track machinery, they won't be heard.

jb

 

[seat38a]

Ok, I'm just going to ask, *** is a Foamer???

 

[CCC1007]

Ok, I'm just going to ask, *** is a Foamer???

Someone who foams at the mouth when someone else even mentions trains.

 

[CSXfoamer1997]

Ok, I'm just going to ask, *** is a Foamer???

A foamer is an enthusiast. They're known as foamers because it's a little bit like they're foaming at the mouth with excitement. In fact, I'm one of them. I've been a train enthusiast ever since I was little.

 

[sitzplatz17]

Wikipedia defines a "foamer" as

"A railfan, rail buff, [...] or foamer (American railroaders), is a person interested in a recreational capacity in rail transport. Railfans of many ages can be found worldwide."

 

[fairviewroad]

Ok, I'm just going to ask, *** is a Foamer???

Someone who foams at the mouth when someone else even mentions trains.

Wikipedia defines a "foamer" as

"A railfan, rail buff, [...] or foamer (American railroaders), is a person interested in a recreational capacity in rail transport. Railfans of many ages can be found worldwide."

Guys, you're not allowed to answer the question. You're supposed to make a snarky comment about using Google.

 

[TrackWalker]

Ok, I'm just going to ask, *** is a Foamer???

Someone who foams at the mouth when someone else even mentions trains.

Wikipedia defines a "foamer" as

"A railfan, rail buff, [...] or foamer (American railroaders), is a person interested in a recreational capacity in rail transport. Railfans of many ages can be found worldwide."

Guys, you're not allowed to answer the question. You're supposed to make a snarky comment about using Google.

Locally we use the term "FRN" and yes feel free to google it. It is there.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

With the exception of a few people who are planning a unique adventure, most people who frequent an Amtrak forum are foamers.

It's a particularly degrading way to refer to someone who has a passion or an interest. But such is life. Sure I'm a foamer.

There is also "GERF" glassy eyed rail fan.

 

[FormerOBS]

It's generally considered a derogatory term for railfan, although a few of them have embraced it and taken ownership.

Many years ago, Jack White, Curator Emeritus of Transportation at the Smithsonian Institution, also mentioned FLAMs. These are defined as "Foamer, Lives At Mom's".

Tom

 

[ScouseAndy]

Im a newbie to this forum, but its got very old and very tedious how every time CSXfoamer seems to post something a noticable number of members seems to think its acceptable to shout him down and bully him for not knowing as much they do.

Its nothing more and nothing less than cyber bullying in my book done by people Im guessing should be old enough to know better and who if they treated people at their work the way they treat CSXfoamer would be up for a disciplinary action.

 

[CCC1007]

Im a newbie to this forum, but its got very old and very tedious how every time CSXfoamer seems to post something a noticable number of members seems to think its acceptable to shout him down and bully him for not knowing as much they do.

Its nothing more and nothing less than cyber bullying in my book done by people Im guessing should be old enough to know better and who if they treated people at their work the way they treat CSXfoamer would be up for a disciplinary action.

I simply try to provide examples when I see anyone that is spreading falsehoods. Would you consider my comments to be cyber bullying? Please let me know, as I'm genuinely curious about what you see as crossing the line.

 

[Bob Dylan]

ScouseAndy: while there is some merit to your post, anyone who is "hurt" by what is posted on a Forum is naive or else needs to get a life!

Civility is always nice but the annonimity of the net allows some people to be jerks and a**holes!

 

[CSXfoamer1997]

And also, I found the speed was between 50 and 60 MPH at the time of the accident, however, is it known yet whether the engineer used his brakes or not?

Because, it sure was unusual for it to travel a mile after it derailed. Never in my life have I ever known a train to travel a mile after derailing, especially after hitting a heavy duty vehicle.

back in the late 70's in the St. Louis area, there was a roadrailer train that had one trailer hop off the track. The train traveled four miles with this single axle off the rail before it rerailed it's self on a trailing point switch. All of the BN officials that were called in when the dispatcher had issues lining up the next train through the area were floored that this was even possible.It is not unheard of for a single axle derailed to not provide sufficient friction to compensate for the lost braking power. As the above story, paraphrased from a firsthand account published in Trains Magazine post 2000, clearly demonstrates.

Wowza! Very amazing indeed!

 

[CSXfoamer1997]

I would think the forward facing video camera in the cab will have much to tell about how this happened, and possibly give clues as to why.

Indeed, it would. Only thing is, I dunno if it will be publicly released or not. I mean, it was shown that in the Oxnard derailment that the camera gave investigators some evidence. But for some reason, they never shared cab video with the public.

 

[jis]

For those who might wish to actually learn a bit more about the accident instead of discussing everything else under the Sun, here is a good report from NBC today with some more detailed views of the accident site:

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/traffic/transit/Workers-Die-Amtrak-Palmetto-Train-Crash-Backhoe-Chester-374451331.html

From the view from the top of the derailed locomotive, now it seems that the entire front truck derailed, not just one axle.

I doubt that the front facing camera will throw much light on why it happened, since the cause now seems to be more in the area of communication issues between dispatchers and maintenance foremen as I gather from the latest chatter on the subject. This information gathered from some passing comments from someone who knew the two that perished and also the involved foremen. It was indeed a sad day.

 

[JoeBas]

Im a newbie to this forum, but its got very old and very tedious how every time CSXfoamer seems to post something a noticable number of members seems to think its acceptable to shout him down and bully him for not knowing as much they do.

Its nothing more and nothing less than cyber bullying in my book done by people Im guessing should be old enough to know better and who if they treated people at their work the way they treat CSXfoamer would be up for a disciplinary action.

What I don't get is why the Forward-Looking Infrared Radar (FLIR) on the train didn't spot this obstruction, and either alert the Engineer to engage the Obstruction Avoidance System (OAS) and jump the the train over the backhoe, or if there wasn't time for that automatically engage the on-board laser Obstruction Removal System (ORS), to remove the obstruction from the train's path.

Weird.

(See what I mean, Scouse? There's a basic level of functioning knowledge you require on a subject to comment on it intelligently (let alone authoritatively), and in too many cases that functional knowledge is either missing or not being applied).

 

[west point]

Any one calculate the visibility at that time of the day ? Only know it was somewhere around +/- daylight ?

 

[JoeBas]

Any one calculate the visibility at that time of the day ? Only know it was somewhere around +/- daylight ?

Sunrise was at 6:42 AM. Accident was at 7:38 AM. So I'm gonna go somewhere in the "Daylight" spectrum.

Though to be fair, some of the eyewitness reports talk about dust obscuration due to strong winds enshrouding the area leading up to the accident.

 

[pennyk]

Please try to stay on topic and avoid personal attacks and insults.

I am going to repeat myself and strongly suggest that members stay on topic and avoid personal attacks and insults.

This thread is under review by staff. It is possible that posts containing off topic sniping will be removed.

Thank you in advance for acting like adults.

 

[jebr]

This thread has gone wildly off topic, with numerous questionable posts. This thread is locked pending moderator review.

If anyone has more substantial information on the topic in the meantime, PM a moderator and we will review it and post if appropriate.

 

[pennyk]

It is our understanding that there has been an update by the NTSB. We are un-locking this thread with the hopes that relevant information will be posted.

Thank you for avoiding snarky comments and personal insults and attacks.