Silver Star sleeper update

[jis]

I think the idea is to have this trial on a train that now has full-service dining and compare the revenue and expenses before and after. The Florida route has a unique attribute in that they can have the two levels of service operating side-by-side. They can examine the booking patterns of the two trains and see if there is a shift either to the lower cost option or to the higher service option. The duration of the trial provides a variety of expected passenger loads and types from family vacation to seasonal migration. It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out.

Don't forget there is actually a third Florida train, the Auto Train. And the Auto Train, is actually the complete opposite, with dining car service included for even the Coach passengers.

But it also requires that travelers bring along an Auto. So it is really not an apples to apples comparison.

 

[jis]

While us old rail travel types think a dining car is essential to the train travel experience, we may be in the minority. The lower cost of sleeper travel may trump that. If so, look for this experiment to continued and expanded.

If the rail passengers are similar to the airline passengers, then lower cost would likely trump higher service level for a majority of travelers. I really think there is room for two different levels of Sleeper service. There will always be a small group that will desire the higher more full service level, but they will never constitute a majority of travelers, specially in an environment where the middle class is feeling more and more squeezed every passing moment.

If you look at a country with huge disparities in income, like India, you find that only certain chosen prestige and usually higher speed trains have A/C First Class, while almost all mail/express trains have A/C Two Tier and Three Tier Sleepers, and many lowly trains have no A/C service at all. They make do with non A/C Three Tier Sleepers. Even those trains that do have A/C service, except for the likes of Rajdhanis and Shatabdis and some Durontos, have many more non A/C cars than A/C cars.. This roughly reflects the income distribution in the general population. That is reality

 

[JoeBas]

Can we just hurry up and get to the bottom already?

 

[rrdude]

I say booooo. Much as the current dining car experience needs to be improved to be what I would consider suitable for passengers paying first class fare, it still beats cafe car food by a mile. I get that running dining cars is very expensive...but what I don't understand is why catered food seems to be the last thing they will consider- if a 777 flying across the Pacific can dish out 2-3 meals and drinks to 300 people including 60-70 first class, then you can do it too, Amtrak.

Amtrak seems to have dropped the moniker, "First Class" when it comes to sleepers, now calling it "sleeper class". Boy, are they living up to the name change. Not even an AmDinette? No flipping way. I expect passenger revolts. Four meals (end-point to end-point) in an AmCafe. I'd rather poke out my eyeballs with a dull stick. No "real" lounge car, no way to enjoy an even half-way palatable meal with new friends, over a bottle of wine or coffee?

So now Amtrak really is just selling you a flat bed. This is basic transportation to the nth degree. I bet the troop sleepers built and used in WWII would get even more people riding, with the low expectations many people have today

 

[rrdude]

Could "bulk" storage of food be done in the baggage cars? Could the shiny new Viewliner baggage cars be outfitted with refrigeration and freezer units? The Café Car attendant could just pull the appropriate stock out of the baggage car, as needed, like before each major meal time.

Which is virtually what every dinner train does, stores the extra food/supplies in the power car. (The car providing HEP) Now, it's not nice to walk the length of the train, to get a box of burgers, but it's better than running out. Security of stock is called into question, if the sole LSA in the AmCan, has to make that walk.

 

[rrdude]

There aren't really any "convenient" mid-route locations for restocking. Contracts with suppliers and procedures are set up for economies of scale at the terminals. To open up new intermediate ones will add a lot of cost - and delay the train.

Is the cost of getting sandwiches delivered to a station really so high that it outweighs the lost opportunity cost of not having those sandwiches available for sale, which is the case now?

As far as storing food, even non-perishables, in the baggage car, wouldn't that add a whole new level of inspection and cleanliness requirements? After all, since the inside of a baggage car is open to the weather at baggage handling stops, there's no way to keep that stuff from getting covered with dust, at least. And how do you maintain inventory control in an open baggage car? I suppose the new baggage cars could be retrofitted with locked and sealed food storage lockers, but that adds more cost as well.

Indeed, here on the harsh desert world of Arrakis, even the spare beer and napkins must wear stillsuits to reclaim water and keep out the harsh, everpresent dust. At times, even Amtrak's escort of Dothraki warriors in Stormtrooper armor is insufficient to keep the vicious Tusken Raiders at bay, and an entire shipment is lost.

More seriously, is dust really a pervasive problem on the new baggage cars? I have a hard time believing that. If it's really that bad, throw a sheet over the food, which is likely double-wrapped in plastic anyways. As for locking up the food...really? We're talking potato chips and Budweiser here, not heroin and golden ingots. If OBS is prone to steal stuff, they're likely rifling through passengers' luggage, not stuffing their pockets full of plastic forks.

Not just LSA, it's EVERYONE else on the RR, and wayside stations, (ticket agents, baggage handlers, electricians, cleaners, etc, etc.) who have access to the baggage cars. And, since it likely will not be locked, even passengers, willing to risk the wrath of the conductor, actually have access to the baggage car, in most instances.

 

[Noah]

My family of 3 is taking the Silver Star from Washington, DC to Lakeland, FL on Sunday, which involves 2 roomettes. Booking the same trip, on the same trains, for a weekend in August yields the same base fares, but the sleepers cost a total of $470 less. I love the diner, but for that much cash, I'd probably just bring some peacock tails and cavier to snack on during the trip. Incidentally, that also makes the train a bit cheaper than flying for the trip.

The real question for me is whether the cafe will be stocked well enough and be able to handle the extra business.

 

[me_little_me]

You know, while I'm aware of the Star/Meteor situation...if Amtrak wanted to trial the "no included food service" thing in all seriousness, why didn't they try it on the Cardinal sooner? That's one train where the included meals probably aren't (normally...I got to enjoy the one exception though I was so busy with scenery that I forgot to grab dinner on my way into CVS) worth the cost.

Because they know that the myriad of seniors would make a bigger stink if they got no food on the Star? Seniors like me tend to want to keep our old ways.

 

[SarahZ]

I think the idea is to have this trial on a train that now has full-service dining and compare the revenue and expenses before and after. The Florida route has a unique attribute in that they can have the two levels of service operating side-by-side. They can examine the booking patterns of the two trains and see if there is a shift either to the lower cost option or to the higher service option. The duration of the trial provides a variety of expected passenger loads and types from family vacation to seasonal migration. It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out.

While us old rail travel types think a dining car is essential to the train travel experience, we may be in the minority. The lower cost of sleeper travel may trump that. If so, look for this experiment to continued and expanded.

Agreed. I'm interested to see how this shakes out.

What might be interesting, on the other routes, would be to sell two classes of sleeper service. You could purchase room-only and bring food or eat your meals in the cafe, or you could purchase room+food.

We'd probably be in the room-only group. While we like Amtrak food, we often feel pressured to eat those three (substantial) meals every day, no matter how hungry we are, because we "paid" for it in our room fee. Additionally, 2-3 days of Amtrak's limited choices can really start to drag. I like most of the food, but I can only eat so much chicken and steak.

So, for travelers like us, and/or students/families on a tight budget, this model would be perfect.

On the other hand, you have people who not only love but expect to be served three squares in the dining car every single day, so it would behoove Amtrak to keep the diner around for those people. The big issue is that the people who pay for the room+food ticket may not be enough to support the cost of keeping a dining car on that train. The dining cars operate at a loss as it is.

Bottom line: I'm interested to see the results of the experiment. I'd be happy either way.

 

[VentureForth]

Again, the problem isn't storage, but rather the way too conservative loading of the cars! And with the loss of the diner on the Star, Amtrak & the commissary need to double down and then some!

Welcome home, AlanB! Missed ya!

Is it Amtrak or the Attendant making the stocking decisions? I would hope that there would be nothing in the stock that would expire outside of two weeks from when it's loaded. I would imagine that the Cafe Car Attendant would want to maximize stock to ensure NOTHING is sold out. Maximum revenue, after all, equals maximum gratuities. And if it's Amtrak's decision, I would suggest a shop steward get involved (And this is from a non-union sorta guy).

We'd probably be in the room-only group. While we like Amtrak food, we often feel pressured to eat those three (substantial) meals every day, no matter how hungry we are, because we "paid" for it in our room fee. Additionally, 2-3 days of Amtrak's limited choices can really start to drag. I like most of the food, but I can only eat so much chicken and steak.

I agree the choices stagnate after three days, but what if you only had the Cafe for three days?

 

[Anderson]

I think the idea is to have this trial on a train that now has full-service dining and compare the revenue and expenses before and after. The Florida route has a unique attribute in that they can have the two levels of service operating side-by-side. They can examine the booking patterns of the two trains and see if there is a shift either to the lower cost option or to the higher service option. The duration of the trial provides a variety of expected passenger loads and types from family vacation to seasonal migration. It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out.

While us old rail travel types think a dining car is essential to the train travel experience, we may be in the minority. The lower cost of sleeper travel may trump that. If so, look for this experiment to continued and expanded.

Yeah...the problem is that both trains were basically slammed full before they did these cuts (witness the spring). Moreover, do pardon my borderline sarcasm, but what is Amtrak going to do if this is somehow a smash hit and sleeper demand skyrockets because of the lower price? Buy another 100 sleepers?

And of course, that's actually the rub: If they did this right they would probably have that sort of demand, but they do need some sort of un-bundled but still present food service better than an Amcafe. The odd thing is that the more I think about it, the more this would make sense on the CONO due to its shorter run (and the idea of pairing off with IP for some sort of regular beefed-up service on the side makes sense there, too, but good luck with that).

 

[jis]

Before there was forced Diner feeding of Sleepers I have done cross country on Cafe food several times. It wasn't really that bad. Of course it was not as good as the Diner, but it is quite survivable. Then again in my student days I did cross country on Greyhound using an Ameripass couple of times too, and food was not exactly gourmet at the truck stops either. Back then I was in a job just out of college dealing with all associated financial issues and I could not afford Diner. If the Sleepers were priced the way they are now, I would have simply avoided Sleepers. It was good that they were priced the way they were back then, and by the time the food inclusion thing happened I was financially better off, but still it basically kept me from using Amtrak for several years. Them are the financial realities of someone in college or just out of college. There is no getting around that.

I guess food does not exercise me that much when I travel. After having done trips on only hard boiled eggs and toast and Yak milk tea for over a week, anything else feels quite luxurious.

 

[SarahZ]

We'd probably be in the room-only group. While we like Amtrak food, we often feel pressured to eat those three (substantial) meals every day, no matter how hungry we are, because we "paid" for it in our room fee. Additionally, 2-3 days of Amtrak's limited choices can really start to drag. I like most of the food, but I can only eat so much chicken and steak.

I agree the choices stagnate after three days, but what if you only had the Cafe for three days?

We'd probably bring our own food and supplement from the cafe when we wanted something hot, similar to traveling in coach. It's much cheaper to buy groceries instead of cafe food.

Plus, the cafe does have a decent amount of stuff to choose from. As I said, we really don't eat that much.

 

[John Bobinyec]

I keep seeing the IP mentioned in conjunction with the CONO. How are they involved with each other?

jb

 

[William W.]

The big question in my mind is how AGR awards will be affected. They can't seriously consider charging the same number of points for both experiences.

A cut in cost to 10-12K for roomettes, 20K for bedrooms would be in order.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

I keep seeing the IP mentioned in conjunction with the CONO. How are they involved with each other?

jb

They run the Pullman Rail Journeys that is pulled by the CONO.

http://www.travelpullman.com/

http://www.iowapacific.com/

 

[jis]

The big question in my mind is how AGR awards will be affected. They can't seriously consider charging the same number of points for both experiences.

A cut in cost to 10-12K for roomettes, 20K for bedrooms would be in order.

They are not changing the AGR award levels. We already have official word on that.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Looks like AGR Award trips to Florida will all be booked on the Meteor since "Less for the Same Price" isn't a policy most of us would want to follow!

And who wants to ride a bus from Orlando to Tampa when you're on a Train trip!!!

 

[Anderson]

I would offer my opinion on the reward trip situation there, but to give a frank version would be to violate any semblance of civility.

 

[willem]

The zone system is rather peculiar from the start. It costs the same to go from Chicago to Washington as to go from Chicago to Miami. To say that a discount is required for the WAS-MIA portion of the trip doesn't fit with the no-extra-cost of that leg.

 

[Guest]

My family of 3 is taking the Silver Star from Washington, DC to Lakeland, FL on Sunday, which involves 2 roomettes. Booking the same trip, on the same trains, for a weekend in August yields the same base fares, but the sleepers cost a total of $470 less. I love the diner, but for that much cash, I'd probably just bring some peacock tails and cavier to snack on during the trip.

I'm not doubting you're saving that much, but with finding just a good lower fare bucket, I can save that much too, on two roomettes.

That is why I question what the true cost savings will be?

 

[Guest]

They are not changing the AGR award levels. We already have official word on that.

:help:

 

[jis]

By Amtrak's own admission the saving on two roomettes will be about $130 for similar buckets. However, keep in mind that typically Silver Star has always been lighter on Sleeper thus running a bucket or two behind the Meteor, hence the bigger difference perhaps.

 

[I always rode the Southern]

I still don't see how this is going to allow them to draw any useful conclusions. The routes are not exactly the same and there are too many variables.

Those of us from tampa, and possibly sarasota down to ft myers who will only use the meteor for agr; may only use the star when meteor is SO, or only use meteor when star is So(and it happens often that there is only 1 choice on any given day); will use the star, but bring our own food and not spend a dime on board. etc.

If they really wanted to test this, go ahead and use the star, but keep the diner and have 2 sleeper fares. 1 with, 1 without. Then either advertise heavily for coach passengers to use the diner or even offer 2 coach fares; with or without food.

 

[jis]

If they really wanted to test this, go ahead and use the star, but keep the diner and have 2 sleeper fares. 1 with, 1 without. Then either advertise heavily for coach passengers to use the diner or even offer 2 coach fares; with or without food.

I would like to see that happen on all trains eventually. Sleeper folks who buy the higher level get a bunch of vouchers to use in the Diner and for whatever else the higher level entitles them to. Just like hotels have room rates with breakfast or even other additional services included or not.