MN and WI ask for study of second MSP-CHI train

[CHamilton]

Adam Auxier, who manages PV trips between Chicago and the Twin Cities, posted on Facebook:

The states of Minnesota and Wisconsin have requested Amtrak compile a study of adding a second train from Chicago to Minneapolis and possibly St Cloud. I will keep you posted as it moves along. I am hoping Amtrak will also choose a stop at one of the Northstar stations for this train and the Empire Builder, preferably Anoka, MN.

He doesn't mention his sources, but I imagine that he's got pretty good connections inside Amtrak.

 

[Anderson]

Minnesota doesn't surprise me (there had been a rumbling of this some time ago). What does surprise me is that Wisconsin is in any way involved in the project. Then again, this may meet Walker's technical standard of "no new services, only improvements to existing services" that he's been claiming ever since he killed the Madison project while asking for money for the Hiawatha.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I would be very happy to see addtional CHI-MSP trains. I think that it would do great if they get it going.

 

[Guest]

An overnight train would be great and allow connections to the other western LD trains.

 

[Gratt]

Currently it is an 8+ hour trip between MSP-CHI on the EB.

With the EB doing the run from the morning to the afternoon that leaves only two slots that would prevent the train from arriving at some crazy hours (12-6 AM) at its current speed.

1.A departure at MSP between 12PM-2PM to arrive in CHI between 8PM-10PM

2. An "overnight" that leaves between 10PM-11:30PM and arrives between 6AM-9AM

As much as I would like it, an overnight train is highly unlikely, unless it is part of a new LD train.

That means we are talking about option 1. Am I wrong or right on this?

 

[johnny.menhennet]

Currently it is an 8+ hour trip between MSP-CHI on the EB.

With the EB doing the run from the morning to the afternoon that leaves only two slots that would prevent the train from arriving at some crazy hours (12-6 AM) at its current speed.

1.A departure at MSP between 12PM-2PM to arrive in CHI between 8PM-10PM

2. An "overnight" that leaves between 10PM-11:30PM and arrives between 6AM-9AM

As much as I would like it, an overnight train is highly unlikely, unless it is part of a new LD train.

That means we are talking about option 1. Am I wrong or right on this?

You are right. I bet that the train will leave SP (it won't be MSP) around 2. I would like it to leave closer to 12:30 to make a 1-hour connection to the LSL, but it would probably be closer to 2. I think that the Chicago departure would be closer to 8, but I would like to see it exactly at 9, to make a 1-hour-connection to the CONO. I know that 1 connection doesn't matter, but I do like to see as many retained as possible, even if they are little, as logn as they won't have a negative impact on ridership.

 

[Anderson]

Actually, I'm thinking that the train might well get moved into something closely matching the Empire Builder's EB slot (since reliability there is simply non-existent), with a morning departure. This would at least allow Amtrak to cancel the CHI-MSP coach EB. I just can't see a train with minimal connectivity at CHI getting through a study...basically, I'm thinking something analogous to the Lynchburger/Crescent here. If this train "chased" the Builder, it would also become possible to attach 808 to this train in the event of a late Builder.

WB, I'm thinking a departure a few hours before the EB...probably 10 AM or so to at least in theory allow some connectivity with the Cap and a few of the other early trains. However, the Builder really does work for connections WB, so this isn't quite as much of an issue.

 

[jphjaxfl]

Amtrak ran 2 trains in each direction from Minneapolis to Chicago up until the late 70s/early 80s. For most of the 1970s, the North Coast Hiawatha (3 days per week) and Hiawatha (4 days per week) left Chicago at 10:30AM and arrived in Minneapolis at 6:20PM. Eastbound it left at 12:30PM and arrived in Chicago at 8:20PM. The Empire Builder left Chicago at 2:30PM and arrived at 10:10PM and eastbound left Minneapolis at 6:30AM and arrived Chicago at 2:10PM. I rode both trains many many times. The trains were very well partronized through Wisconsin. I remember crowds of people waiting on the platforms as the train pulled in. In 1979, I think it was, the NorthCoast Hiawatha was discontinued as was the Hiawatha. Amtrak then operated the North Star from Duluth to Minneapolis to Chicago as an alternative to the Hiawatha. The NorthStar was partially funded from Duluth to Minneapolis by the State of MN. The NorthStar carried a heritage sleeping car, amfleet coaches and amcafe. The makeup was the same as when it operated as the State Supported Minneapolis-Duluth train except the addition of the Heritage Sleeper and a baggage car. I used the NorthStar to Duluth and to Chicago a lot too. It was great to have a roomette to Chicago. Unfortunately, the NorthStar was not very well patronized through Wisconsin compared to the Hiawatha due to calling times. Also the former Milwaukee Road track from Chicago to the Twin Cities had deteriorated and schedules lengthened and trains often late. Patronage on the MN state supported NorthStar from then Midway Station to Duluth suffered due to unreliable morning departure time. The State of MN withdrew funding and the entire NorthStar died. It was also the case that there should have been two daily trains from The Twin Cities to Duluth and back. Customers wanted the choice of a morning and afternoon departure from both cities. I know 2 trains from the Twin Cities to Chicago would do well if reliable schedules are maintained.

 

[Ispolkom]

This is all speculation. Much as I personally would like a MSP-CHI train, it's not going to happen with the present legislatures in Wisconsin and Minnesota. There is no chance that the Minnesota Legislature will come up with money for rail, and without Oberstar on the House Transportation Committee, there's no federal money available.

The present state legislature rejected funding for a third light rail line in the Twin Cities. Anoka County pulled out of the Minneapolis-Duluth train coalition. About the only positive news is that Hennepin County has come up with the rest of the funds for that train station Minneapolis wants at the baseball park.

 

[TraneMan]

I'd love them to see the Duluth run get tied to this. I think there is a market for this for people who wants to go up to the Northshore!

If this ran, I'd be up in Duluth pretty often since I love it up there!

 

[jebr]

Here's a link to a bit more information (and some other notes from the meeting):

http://www.streets.mn/2012/06/08/notes-from-the-june-2012-passenger-rail-forum/

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Minnesota doesn't surprise me (there had been a rumbling of this some time ago). What does surprise me is that Wisconsin is in any way involved in the project.

What project? All I see is a brief mention of a study for an unfunded increase in services.

Then again, this may meet Walker's technical standard of "no new services, only improvements to existing services" that he's been claiming ever since he killed the Madison project while asking for money for the Hiawatha.

It looked to me as though Walker's "technical standard" was that there can be no unfunded increase of recurring expenses at the state level. Seeing Walker backtrack on his attitude toward new passenger rail services is probably out of the question, especially after his recently renewed voter mandate. Mr. Walker stumbled a bit in the early going but he is still very young and his "divide and conquer" strategy appears to already be paying serious dividends. With his astounding 8:1 funding advantage Walker will most likely enjoy many years of continued viability in order to further solidify his influence. I wouldn't be surprised to see Walker still at the reigns a decade from now.

Much as I personally would like a MSP-CHI train, it's not going to happen with the present legislatures in Wisconsin and Minnesota. There is no chance that the Minnesota Legislature will come up with money for rail, and without Oberstar on the House Transportation Committee, there's no federal money available. The present state legislature rejected funding for a third light rail line in the Twin Cities. Anoka County pulled out of the Minneapolis-Duluth train coalition.

That's a pretty bleak picture.

I'd love them to see the Duluth run get tied to this. I think there is a market for this for people who wants to go up to the Northshore! If this ran, I'd be up in Duluth pretty often since I love it up there!

You might want to wait until you see the ticket charges that come with an unsubsidized passenger rail project before you say that. :lol:

 

[jphjaxfl]

Its too bad that Anoka Country pulled out of the Twin Cities to Duluth plan. Oberstar did a lot for passenger rail in MN. The MN subsidized train from Minneapolis to Duluth did well in the 1970s with little improvement to the tracks . If they upgraded the tracks to allow a 2.1/2 travel time and offer 2 trains per day, it would do well. Politics in Mn has changed alot since the 1970s.

 

[Montanan]

I rode the North Star from Chicago to St. Paul once in 1979. It seemed like it was fairly well patronized, though of course I only saw one trip.

Up until the late 60s, the Burlington and the Milwaukee each had 3 or more major trains between those cities, both railroads offering morning, afternoon, and late-night departures. A three-train schedule like that seems ideal, at least in the absence of a higher-speed corridor.

That said, it's hard to see this request as being anything other than a political gesture, especially on Wisconsin's part. I agree that nothing's actually going to happen on that corridor for a while.

 

[CHamilton]

Adam Auxier posted on Facebook again:

Actual cost [for the study] is around $50,000 for the study as no environmental impact study is needed. Whats better is that Wisconsin is sitting on two Talgo trains that it isnt using that would be perfect for this corridor. And they are push-pull capable which will allow easier access to Minneapolis downtown.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Adam Auxier posted on Facebook again:

Actual cost [for the study] is around $50,000 for the study as no environmental impact study is needed. Whats better is that Wisconsin is sitting on two Talgo trains that it isnt using that would be perfect for this corridor. And they are push-pull capable which will allow easier access to Minneapolis downtown.

Those trainsets are likely to remain locked in legal limbo for years. Like it or not Wisconsin has decided to renege on signed contracts in order to make use of legal loopholes that may allow them to avoid full payment.

This is bad for Wisconsin but it's also bad for the country as a whole. The laws and regulations (and legal interpretations) that are allowing Wisconsin to reverse course without bearing all of the costs they agreed to be bound to are likely to be remembered the next time anyone tries to promote a resurgence of regional passenger trail here in the US. Unless your project can be studied, designed, funded and completed well before the next election cycle your signed contracts may simply be bypassed through carefully orchestrated legal wrangling by the next anti-rail administration. What kind of mass transit builder or operator would ever knowingly agree to terms like that? We're doing business like a banana republic at this point.

 

[Exiled in Express]

There was an article in one of the MSP papers this week stating Minnesota had requested the Chicago high speed study progress to the second stage with improvements to the route of the Builder as the preferred option. $1.2 million cost was agreed to be split equally between MN and WI previously but MN footed the entire bill given the climate in Madison.

 

[Steve4031]

I dont think Wisconsin should get a dime more in federal money for any kind of transportation spending until they straighten out the Talgo mess. IMHO they could easily reverse there path again and agree to pay for the Talgo maintenance. In return, maybe the federal government could provide funding for more trains on the Chicago-twin cities route. I think a message needs to be delivered to the states that when a major project is approved for funding by the federal government, then the state needs to follow through regardless of the politics. Wisconsin needs to take a hit for its stupidity.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

$1.2 million cost was agreed to be split equally between MN and WI previously but MN footed the entire bill given the climate in Madison.

You can expect more and more of these sorts of one-sided "compromises" as the Tea Party gains more and more clout.

 

[jebr]

$1.2 million cost was agreed to be split equally between MN and WI previously but MN footed the entire bill given the climate in Madison.

You can expect more and more of these sorts of one-sided "compromises" as the Tea Party gains more and more clout.

Interestingly, the Minnesota legislature has a fair amount of Tea Party clout too, and has GOP majorities in both.

 

[jis]

Perhaps MN should consider using the original route of the EB for HSR instead of the current WI "convoluted" one Juuuust kidding

 

[Devil's Advocate]

$1.2 million cost was agreed to be split equally between MN and WI previously but MN footed the entire bill given the climate in Madison.

You can expect more and more of these sorts of one-sided "compromises" as the Tea Party gains more and more clout.

Interestingly, the Minnesota legislature has a fair amount of Tea Party clout too, and has GOP majorities in both.

Not every GOP member is a TP member. It's certainly moving in that general direction, but that trend is by no means complete. If you can find a staunchly pro-rail Tea Party politician I would absolutely love to be corrected. Honestly, I would.

 

[Anderson]

$1.2 million cost was agreed to be split equally between MN and WI previously but MN footed the entire bill given the climate in Madison.

You can expect more and more of these sorts of one-sided "compromises" as the Tea Party gains more and more clout.

Interestingly, the Minnesota legislature has a fair amount of Tea Party clout too, and has GOP majorities in both.

Not every GOP member is a TP member. It's certainly moving in that general direction, but that trend is by no means complete. If you can find a staunchly pro-rail Tea Party politician I would absolutely love to be corrected. Honestly, I would.

I'd take a moment to point out how well Rick Scott's cancellation of the Orlampa line went over within his own caucus as evidence that there are some pro-rail GOPers.

I can attest to a few pro-rail TPers, but none of them are elected officials that I know of (they're basically TPers who also happen to take the train or who live up in NOVA). Basically, to get a pro-rail TPer you have to get one who lives in an area where more highways physically won't work.

 

[Nathanael]

The present state legislature rejected funding for a third light rail line in the Twin Cities. Anoka County pulled out of the Minneapolis-Duluth train coalition. About the only positive news is that Hennepin County has come up with the rest of the funds for that train station Minneapolis wants at the baseball park.

The composition of the MN Legislature is very likely to change in November.

Those running it (Republican leadership) have not made themselves look good; they gratitously filibustered lots of popular uncontroversial stuff, demanded large tax breaks for the well-connected rich (they didn't get them), failed to pass a budget on time, and spent the rest of their time pushing stuff like an anti-gay-marriage amendment and a voter disenfranchisement amendment (both of which will be on the ballot in 2012).

This is not perceived as "good government" in Minnesota. Neither is halting the Southwest Light Rail Project, which runs through suburbs which Republicans *used* to be able to win -- probably not any more.

Minnesota has new judge-drawn districts, so there's no gerrymandering to entrench the incumbents. The nominal numbers look like they're going to lean towards the DFL, especially in the state House of Representatives. So there might well be money from Minnesota come January.

And it looks like this study is being funded entirely by Minnesota, so Wisconsin doesn't matter. I think Governor Dayton and the Minnesota DOT are ready to go it alone, whatever Wisconsin does. I would not be surprised to see a train with no stops between LaCrosse and Milwaukee, or possibly even between LaCrosse and Chicago.

 

[Nathanael]

With his astounding 8:1 funding advantage Walker will most likely enjoy many years of continued viability in order to further solidify his influence. I wouldn't be surprised to see Walker still at the reigns a decade from now.

I would. Look up "John Doe investigation". He's the main target of a complex multi-year felony investigation by the Milwaukee District Attorney's office, and a second investigation by the FBI. And he's committing more gratuitous and obvious lawbreaking (the latest: http://www.thedailypage.com/daily/article.php?article=37109 ).

He also just lost control of the legislature.

This is not a recipe for a long career. I wouldn't be entirely surprised if he manages to escape prison, but after a while his funders will realize he's a waste of money. They don't normally have to spend multimillions just to *keep* their candidate in office for the rest of his term.

Speaking of anti-rail governors, Kasich in Ohio seems pretty canny and likely to survive for quite a while. Walker does not.