Norfolk VA service to start by end of 2012

[afigg]

[Moderator's note - I have merged these 2 similar threads together!]

This is interesting news. Gov. McDonnell announced today that the expected start date for the new service to Norfolk has been moved up to start by December 31, 2012. This is 10 months earlier than the original start date. The track work must be moving along well ahead of schedule.

The VA DRPT press release is here. There is also a VA DRPT status page on the Norfolk extension, which has been updated monthly.

This is certainly impressive if they can make the end of 2012 date. So, there could be 2 route extensions starting service in 2012: NE Regionals to Norfolk and the Downeaster to Brunswick ME.

 

[Ryan]

Good weather this "winter" almost certainly helps.

Can't wait to be on the first run

 

[Sky Pilot]

Good weather this "winter" almost certainly helps.

Can't wait to be on the first run

Maybe we could have a mini-gathering?

On a more serious note, does anyone know what schedule this was going to run on at first? And is Suffolk a stop or is it non-stop from NFK to PTB?

Blue skies ..

 

[John-MCPO-USN]

Amtrak passenger trains between Norfolk and Richmond and beyond will begin nearly a year early, by Dec. 31, Gov. Bob McDonnell announced Wednesday.

Service wasn’t expected to launch until October 2013, but work to make Norfolk Southern and CSX freight tracks ready for passenger rail has progressed faster than expected, a state spokeswoman said.

http://hamptonroads.com/2012/01/norfolk-passenger-rail-service-begin-end-year

Hmmm, I lost a bet on this one.....didn't think it would happen (esp this quickly). Looking forward to the new route though......John

 

[Anderson]

I don't know on the latter point, but once we have a date, if I'm not going to be out of town then I will be more than happy to help organize a mini-gathering.

With that said...I think they're doing the obnoxious "early morning out" schedule to start with, but that may not be set in stone (if VA, NS, and CSX decide, they could arguably use any of the three Richmond-originating Regionals for this, but I think the plan is for the "Richmond Route" train...i.e. 174 in the morning and whatever the evening counterpart is), and obviously if there's not a formal agreement on the timetable in place, CSX could force a different one to be used.

Edit: I'm also not sure about the actual timetable plans Norfolk-RVR (i.e. how long the run is expected to be)...does anyone recall off the top of their head what the upgrades to the tracks were supposed to do as far as top speeds/average speeds? I've seen reports offering two plans (90 MPH and 110 MPH), but I can't recall if there were to be two phases on this. Also, is there any talk of how this is doing in terms of budgeting? If VA can deliver a passenger rail project that is both ahead of schedule and under budget, I think it'll go a decent way towards improving sentiment towards rail projects in the region (particularly since we've already pulled off one miracle with the Lynchburg train operating deep in the black).

 

[Ryan]

Too slow, Master Chief.

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/45554-norfolk-va-service-to-start-by-end-of-2012/

Edit: this post made a lot more sense before the two threads were merged

 

[Acela150]

Maybe I'll try to get On the first run. Let's hope Amtrak doesnt select another Boston train for this service. Two from RVR and one from LYH. These three are all mid day trains too. 86, 174, followed by, 176.

 

[jis]

Could be extension of 84/88. It will clearly be a consist that will overnight at Norfolk instead of in Washington or Richmond. Otherwise the model that lead to the success of the Lynchburg service does not quite work.

 

[Sky Pilot]

Good weather this "winter" almost certainly helps.

Can't wait to be on the first run

Maybe we could have a mini-gathering?

On a more serious note, does anyone know what schedule this was going to run on at first? And is Suffolk a stop or is it non-stop from NFK to PTB?

Blue skies ..

Well this article from the Virginia Pilot answers one of my questions. Regarding a Suffolk stop, I'm now not sure that the former train station there is even on the same tracks that this service would use.

"Service will start with one train departing and one arriving daily. The morning departure is set for around 5 a.m., with service to Richmond's Staples Mill station by 7 a.m., and on to Washington by 9 a.m. A train will depart Washington around 3 p.m., arriving in Norfolk by 7 p.m. Officials designed the schedule to be attractive to military and business officials who make day trips to the capital area.

The one-seat service will carry riders all the way to Boston. Officials plan to increase service to three round-trips daily. It will be the first intercity passenger rail service in Norfolk since 1977."

Blue skies ...

 

[afigg]

"Service will start with one train departing and one arriving daily. The morning departure is set for around 5 a.m., with service to Richmond's Staples Mill station by 7 a.m., and on to Washington by 9 a.m. A train will depart Washington around 3 p.m., arriving in Norfolk by 7 p.m. Officials designed the schedule to be attractive to military and business officials who make day trips to the capital area.

The one-seat service will carry riders all the way to Boston. Officials plan to increase service to three round-trips daily. It will be the first intercity passenger rail service in Norfolk since 1977."

Those times indicate that the weekday northbound train will Regional 174. The closest southbound that fits is #125 which departs WAS at 3:55 PM for RVR. #95 departs WAS at 2:30 PM for Newport News. #125 originates at NYP, so it would not provide a one seat ride back from north of NYP. Amtrak could be planning some adjustments to the Regional schedules prior to extension to Norfolk. These would be the weekday trains, hopefully the first weekend trains won't depart Norfolk that early in the day.

As they expand to 3 daily trains, the schedule balancing will get complicated if each train is to be an extension of an existing Regional operating off of the NEC. They should also be looking at day trips from DC to Norfolk as contractors and military personnel will want to make day tips to the Norfolk area. May have to have a morning train originate in WAS, head south to Norfolk, then depart Norfolk early afternoon to become a NE Regional running to NYP or BOS

As for Suffolk, I found a news article from early 2011 that the city was looking at a new station site, but they were just starting the process. Appears that the service from run non-stop from Norfolk to Petersburg at the outset, while Suffolk catches up and builds a new station. Which will make for a long non-stop run from Norfolk to Petersburg, much of it on a dead straight track.

 

[afigg]

Edit: I'm also not sure about the actual timetable plans Norfolk-RVR (i.e. how long the run is expected to be)...does anyone recall off the top of their head what the upgrades to the tracks were supposed to do as far as top speeds/average speeds? I've seen reports offering two plans (90 MPH and 110 MPH), but I can't recall if there were to be two phases on this. Also, is there any talk of how this is doing in terms of budgeting? If VA can deliver a passenger rail project that is both ahead of schedule and under budget, I think it'll go a decent way towards improving sentiment towards rail projects in the region (particularly since we've already pulled off one miracle with the Lynchburg train operating deep in the black).

As far as I know, this extension is 79 mph speeds only. Increasing to higher speeds is part of less well defined longer range plans, but the plans for higher speeds between Petersburg and Norfolk have to be tied in with the plans for speed and capacity improvements to the DC to Richmond section and re-routing all the Amtrak trains to use Main Street Station.

Another item to consider in the scheduling of the 3 daily trains is to get at least one train to/from Norfolk to allow bookable connections at Petersburg or Staples Mill Rd with one of the southbound/northbound Carolinian, Palmetto, or a Silver LD train. People in Norfolk are going to want to take trains to NC, SC, or even to Florida.

 

[Sky Pilot]

Edit: I'm also not sure about the actual timetable plans Norfolk-RVR (i.e. how long the run is expected to be)...does anyone recall off the top of their head what the upgrades to the tracks were supposed to do as far as top speeds/average speeds? I've seen reports offering two plans (90 MPH and 110 MPH), but I can't recall if there were to be two phases on this. Also, is there any talk of how this is doing in terms of budgeting? If VA can deliver a passenger rail project that is both ahead of schedule and under budget, I think it'll go a decent way towards improving sentiment towards rail projects in the region (particularly since we've already pulled off one miracle with the Lynchburg train operating deep in the black).

As far as I know, this extension is 79 mph speeds only. Increasing to higher speeds is part of less well defined longer range plans, but the plans for higher speeds between Petersburg and Norfolk have to be tied in with the plans for speed and capacity improvements to the DC to Richmond section and re-routing all the Amtrak trains to use Main Street Station.

Another item to consider in the scheduling of the 3 daily trains is to get at least one train to/from Norfolk to allow bookable connections at Petersburg or Staples Mill Rd with one of the southbound/northbound Carolinian, Palmetto, or a Silver LD train. People in Norfolk are going to want to take trains to NC, SC, or even to Florida.

Not to get on my hobby horse, but if they want people to travel to Florida, it would be enormously helpful if they would have checked baggage service at NFK on the NER! I realize only one NER train (66/67) currently has a baggage car but I can't see taking the family to Disney for a week with carry-on only. FYI - if one is willing to cool his/her heels at RVR for 6+ hours (94/91) or 3+ hours (66/97) a connection southbound can be made from NPN. Coming back the layover is 4+ hours (92/95). But .. RVR is not a great place to kill time and if I'm on the peninsula, it's just a lot easier to to drive to RVR since the ride from NPN/WBG to RVR is dreadful and takes far longer than is reasonable in this day and age.

Blue skies ..

 

[afigg]

Not to get on my hobby horse, but if they want people to travel to Florida, it would be enormously helpful if they would have checked baggage service at NFK on the NER! I realize only one NER train (66/67) currently has a baggage car but I can't see taking the family to Disney for a week with carry-on only. FYI - if one is willing to cool his/her heels at RVR for 6+ hours (94/91) or 3+ hours (66/97) a connection southbound can be made from NPN. Coming back the layover is 4+ hours (92/95). But .. RVR is not a great place to kill time and if I'm on the peninsula, it's just a lot easier to to drive to RVR since the ride from NPN/WBG to RVR is dreadful and takes far longer than is reasonable in this day and age.

The trip time from NPN to RVR is slow because of the conditions and capacity limits of the CSX tracks, especially between Staples Mill and Main Street Station. There are plans to improve those tracks, for an Acca yard bypass, add double tracking in some stretches, make significant reductions in trip times, build a new station in Newport News, and so on, but that will take a fair amount of money and time. The trip time from Norfolk to Petersburg is likely to be much more competitive with driving, if people are willing to wait at Petersburg to get on a southbound train to NC, SC or on the trip back. Petersburg, which had only 22,065 passengers get on or off in FY2011, is not exactly a busy station though. Could see a bump in business from the new service to Norfolk. The 5 AM departure from Norfolk certainly won't provide any decent connections with a southbound Carolinian, Silver, or Palmetto.

BTW, Amtrak was so excited about the news about the extension to Norfolk, they put out a news release yesterday about it.

 

[Anderson]

Not to get on my hobby horse, but if they want people to travel to Florida, it would be enormously helpful if they would have checked baggage service at NFK on the NER! I realize only one NER train (66/67) currently has a baggage car but I can't see taking the family to Disney for a week with carry-on only. FYI - if one is willing to cool his/her heels at RVR for 6+ hours (94/91) or 3+ hours (66/97) a connection southbound can be made from NPN. Coming back the layover is 4+ hours (92/95). But .. RVR is not a great place to kill time and if I'm on the peninsula, it's just a lot easier to to drive to RVR since the ride from NPN/WBG to RVR is dreadful and takes far longer than is reasonable in this day and age.

The trip time from NPN to RVR is slow because of the conditions and capacity limits of the CSX tracks, especially between Staples Mill and Main Street Station. There are plans to improve those tracks, for an Acca yard bypass, add double tracking in some stretches, make significant reductions in trip times, build a new station in Newport News, and so on, but that will take a fair amount of money and time. The trip time from Norfolk to Petersburg is likely to be much more competitive with driving, if people are willing to wait at Petersburg to get on a southbound train to NC, SC or on the trip back. Petersburg, which had only 22,065 passengers get on or off in FY2011, is not exactly a busy station though. Could see a bump in business from the new service to Norfolk. The 5 AM departure from Norfolk certainly won't provide any decent connections with a southbound Carolinian, Silver, or Palmetto.

BTW, Amtrak was so excited about the news about the extension to Norfolk, they put out a news release yesterday about it.

The time from NPN-RVM is actually pretty good when the train is on time: NPN-WBG is actually faster than driving (though in no way cost-competitive or particularly convenient...though once upon a time I did toy with getting a pass instead of commuting to William and Mary by car...however, $4500/year is a bit steep, even compared to William and Mary's parking pass policies. I'm a railfan, but I can't exactly support a measurable fraction of the cost of running a Regional down the Peninsula!), and WBG-RVM isn't too bad, either. It's RVM-RVR where you get a lot of problems.

As to the timing...I'll sometimes take the train from NPN when I'm heading north (never south), but nine times out of ten I just say "forget it" and go to RVR because of both the number and variety of trains available (for example, I'd have to leave WAS by 5-ish PM on weekends and about 2 PM during the week to get back to NPN vs. 7:30 to get back to RVR). Even taking the train to Richmond is...questionably convenient (there's really only one round trip per day that can normally be managed, which doesn't work if I want to go up for part of a day...and I can't get into town before 10:30 AM, anyway), so I've only done that a few times, and only for one leg of the trip then.

 

[GaSteve]

Cost increases of $13M announced. Details here.

 

[Sky Pilot]

Not to get on my hobby horse, but if they want people to travel to Florida, it would be enormously helpful if they would have checked baggage service at NFK on the NER! I realize only one NER train (66/67) currently has a baggage car but I can't see taking the family to Disney for a week with carry-on only. FYI - if one is willing to cool his/her heels at RVR for 6+ hours (94/91) or 3+ hours (66/97) a connection southbound can be made from NPN. Coming back the layover is 4+ hours (92/95). But .. RVR is not a great place to kill time and if I'm on the peninsula, it's just a lot easier to to drive to RVR since the ride from NPN/WBG to RVR is dreadful and takes far longer than is reasonable in this day and age.

The trip time from NPN to RVR is slow because of the conditions and capacity limits of the CSX tracks, especially between Staples Mill and Main Street Station. There are plans to improve those tracks, for an Acca yard bypass, add double tracking in some stretches, make significant reductions in trip times, build a new station in Newport News, and so on, but that will take a fair amount of money and time. The trip time from Norfolk to Petersburg is likely to be much more competitive with driving, if people are willing to wait at Petersburg to get on a southbound train to NC, SC or on the trip back. Petersburg, which had only 22,065 passengers get on or off in FY2011, is not exactly a busy station though. Could see a bump in business from the new service to Norfolk. The 5 AM departure from Norfolk certainly won't provide any decent connections with a southbound Carolinian, Silver, or Palmetto.

BTW, Amtrak was so excited about the news about the extension to Norfolk, they put out a news release yesterday about it.

The time from NPN-RVM is actually pretty good when the train is on time: NPN-WBG is actually faster than driving (though in no way cost-competitive or particularly convenient...though once upon a time I did toy with getting a pass instead of commuting to William and Mary by car...however, $4500/year is a bit steep, even compared to William and Mary's parking pass policies. I'm a railfan, but I can't exactly support a measurable fraction of the cost of running a Regional down the Peninsula!), and WBG-RVM isn't too bad, either. It's RVM-RVR where you get a lot of problems.

As to the timing...I'll sometimes take the train from NPN when I'm heading north (never south), but nine times out of ten I just say "forget it" and go to RVR because of both the number and variety of trains available (for example, I'd have to leave WAS by 5-ish PM on weekends and about 2 PM during the week to get back to NPN vs. 7:30 to get back to RVR). Even taking the train to Richmond is...questionably convenient (there's really only one round trip per day that can normally be managed, which doesn't work if I want to go up for part of a day...and I can't get into town before 10:30 AM, anyway), so I've only done that a few times, and only for one leg of the trip then.

As long as this thread was resurrected, I meant to reply to your comment concering travel time between NPN and WBG. Your point (made here and in more detail in a different thread) is true with respect to going north or westbound. But the timing going from WBG to NPN is not good at all. I assume it's just schedule padding to make the line's overall on-time preformance look good, but why should the 66 or 94 take 22/23 minutes while the 67/95/83*/99** takes 45/40/37/47 minutes to travel the identical mileage (23 rail miles)?

* 83 only runs on Friday evenings and has no corresponding westbound train.

**99 only runs Saturdays/Sundays in lieu of 95.

Blue skies ..

 

[afigg]

Cost increases of $13M announced. Details here.

Saw the news with additional details on the cost overrun elsewhere. Good news is they will start the service 10 months early. Bad news is that they are projecting a $13 million cost over run and will postpone the double tracking project near Nokesville which will help the Crescent, Cardinal, Lynchburger route. Lots of anti-rail and anti-Amtrak comments in the Hampton Roads article comments section, but those are par for the course.

At least there is enough support and momentum behind extending service to Norfolk to carry it through the cost overrun. Could have some implications for service extension to Roanoke, however. I think that will happen, but depending on the outcome of the next election cycle, particularly for Governor, Roanoke could get pushed out several additional years.

 

[trainviews]

It was actually interesting noting the differences in the comments in the Hamton Roads paper (Virginia Pilot) and the Richmond one (forgot the name). In the Norfolk area there were a lot of aggressive anti rail posts (and equally aggressive rebuttals) - in Richmond they were mostly just happy about the service in spite of the cost overrun. The difference is probably partly spillover from the heated debate over The Tide light rail in Norfolk and it's massive overruns and partly due to the fact that Richmond already has good train service and sees the value.

It is also noteworthy that both McDonnel in Virginia and Snyder in Michigan have been pretty pro rail even though they are as conservative as some of their trainkilling brethern on other issues. In spite of killing the ARC Christie in New Jersey has not been a general train hater either.

In short I see a pattern of trains and Amtrak being a hate object of the far right in states with no more service than a few LD's but in states with well established service and good ridership they just don't go there, and are even working to expand or upgrade service. The popularity of the trains simply overshadow the bill (which in Virginias case has turned out to be very small). And while no assurance I really don't see any coming Virginia governor on an anti train crusade. He might be unenthutiastic on expansions, but in this state I think that would be more a question of his personal preferred projects rather than party affiliaton.

 

[AlanB]

In spite of killing the ARC Christie in New Jersey has not been a general train hater either.

Well he's clearly not a train lover! In addition to killing ARC, Mr. Christie announced that everyone would have to feel the pain of his budget cuts. He cut NJT's budget, fine I do understand across the board cuts. Except, there was no cut to the highway budget that I've seen.

And he controls NJT's board and director. Riders on NJT commuter trains in 2009 covered 49.59% of their operating costs; bus riders covered 38.77% of their costs. What did NJT do to cover the budget cut? They increased bus fares by 10% and railfares by 25%. Not exactly a pro-rail decision!

 

[Anderson]

Not to get on my hobby horse, but if they want people to travel to Florida, it would be enormously helpful if they would have checked baggage service at NFK on the NER! I realize only one NER train (66/67) currently has a baggage car but I can't see taking the family to Disney for a week with carry-on only. FYI - if one is willing to cool his/her heels at RVR for 6+ hours (94/91) or 3+ hours (66/97) a connection southbound can be made from NPN. Coming back the layover is 4+ hours (92/95). But .. RVR is not a great place to kill time and if I'm on the peninsula, it's just a lot easier to to drive to RVR since the ride from NPN/WBG to RVR is dreadful and takes far longer than is reasonable in this day and age.

The trip time from NPN to RVR is slow because of the conditions and capacity limits of the CSX tracks, especially between Staples Mill and Main Street Station. There are plans to improve those tracks, for an Acca yard bypass, add double tracking in some stretches, make significant reductions in trip times, build a new station in Newport News, and so on, but that will take a fair amount of money and time. The trip time from Norfolk to Petersburg is likely to be much more competitive with driving, if people are willing to wait at Petersburg to get on a southbound train to NC, SC or on the trip back. Petersburg, which had only 22,065 passengers get on or off in FY2011, is not exactly a busy station though. Could see a bump in business from the new service to Norfolk. The 5 AM departure from Norfolk certainly won't provide any decent connections with a southbound Carolinian, Silver, or Palmetto.

BTW, Amtrak was so excited about the news about the extension to Norfolk, they put out a news release yesterday about it.

The time from NPN-RVM is actually pretty good when the train is on time: NPN-WBG is actually faster than driving (though in no way cost-competitive or particularly convenient...though once upon a time I did toy with getting a pass instead of commuting to William and Mary by car...however, $4500/year is a bit steep, even compared to William and Mary's parking pass policies. I'm a railfan, but I can't exactly support a measurable fraction of the cost of running a Regional down the Peninsula!), and WBG-RVM isn't too bad, either. It's RVM-RVR where you get a lot of problems.

As to the timing...I'll sometimes take the train from NPN when I'm heading north (never south), but nine times out of ten I just say "forget it" and go to RVR because of both the number and variety of trains available (for example, I'd have to leave WAS by 5-ish PM on weekends and about 2 PM during the week to get back to NPN vs. 7:30 to get back to RVR). Even taking the train to Richmond is...questionably convenient (there's really only one round trip per day that can normally be managed, which doesn't work if I want to go up for part of a day...and I can't get into town before 10:30 AM, anyway), so I've only done that a few times, and only for one leg of the trip then.

As long as this thread was resurrected, I meant to reply to your comment concering travel time between NPN and WBG. Your point (made here and in more detail in a different thread) is true with respect to going north or westbound. But the timing going from WBG to NPN is not good at all. I assume it's just schedule padding to make the line's overall on-time preformance look good, but why should the 66 or 94 take 22/23 minutes while the 67/95/83*/99** takes 45/40/37/47 minutes to travel the identical mileage (23 rail miles)?

* 83 only runs on Friday evenings and has no corresponding westbound train.

**99 only runs Saturdays/Sundays in lieu of 95.

Blue skies ..

Ugh. Lost a draft post here, but you're right on the padding. Most of that padding NB is found in the equipment stop at WAS.

As to VA politics, I can't see a good argument for an anti-rail crusade here. On the one hand, the Lynchburger made a profit (per Amtrak's records) of at least $1.8m in FY10 on the farebox alone, and I'd be shocked beyond belief if that figure was anything less than $3 million (my best guess is $3.5 million or so) for FY11. And FY12 revenue seems on course to hit at least $11 million, so I would expect that the profits there should exceed $4 million this year. In the meantime, the NPN-RVR-WAS line seems to be at least at break-even. In FY10, there was a recorded loss of about $500k on the whole line...the fifth train ran for only about 3 months there, and "big four" revenue was about $25.15m. In FY11, "big four" revenue was about $27.60 million (fifth train revenue was $360k and $2.082m respectively)., and both appear to be up substantially YTD:

Big Four, Oct/Nov 10	$4,489,201
Big Four, Oct/Nov 11	$4,920,191
Difference		  $430,990 (+9.60%)

Richmond, Oct/Nov 10	  $318,252
Richmond, Oct/Nov 11	  $399,824
Difference		   $81,572 (+25.6%)

Total, Oct/Nov 10	$4,807,453
Total, Oct/Nov 11	$5,320,015
Difference		  $487,438 (+10.1%)

So at least in Virginia, we're devoid of the usual "Amtrak loses money" argument (and if I find anyone at the state level throwing that one around right now, I'll be more than happy to show up at a town hall meeting and call them on the carpet on this); the only potential jam in the Roanoke train would seem to be capital costs, but I would think that the net operating costs would be respectably close to zero.

One worthwhile question: Does anyone have operating cost estimates on the one train per day to Norfolk? I'm particularly thinking net of the cost to just run the train to Richmond (i.e. the cost of the RVR-NFK segment). I'd like to be able to take a stab at the ridership that segment will need to cover costs (which in Virgina isn't an unrealistic proposal...insert lament here that C&O never got on the horn with the RF&P to run this route jointly).

 

[Hanno]

What equipment will be used for this service. I understood that equipment is in short supply. Just curious.

 

[afigg]

What equipment will be used for this service. I understood that equipment is in short supply. Just curious.

The first train to/from Norfolk will be an extension of a NE Regional that sits at Staples Mill Road overnight and will instead spend overnight in Norfolk. So no additional equipment for that one. They could extend all 3 early AM northbound NE Regionals departing RVR to depart from Norfolk, but that would result in the 3 daily trains departing Norfolk at approx 5 AM, 6 AM, 7 AM which is a pretty poor schedule arrangement. The schedules for the 2 additional trains beyond the first one have not been announced and probably have not been finalized.

As for equipment, because of the stimulus restorations of stored and wrecked Amfleet I coach cars and the conversion of around 20 café cars to coach cars, there are a lot more Amfleet Is available than there were 2-3 years ago. The shortages may be in locomotives, both electric for the NEC and diesels for operations off of the NEC (and elsewhere). The electric ACS-64s are on order, but funding the P-42 replacement order is going be a challenge.

 

[Anderson]

What equipment will be used for this service. I understood that equipment is in short supply. Just curious.

The first train to/from Norfolk will be an extension of a NE Regional that sits at Staples Mill Road overnight and will instead spend overnight in Norfolk. So no additional equipment for that one. They could extend all 3 early AM northbound NE Regionals departing RVR to depart from Norfolk, but that would result in the 3 daily trains departing Norfolk at approx 5 AM, 6 AM, 7 AM which is a pretty poor schedule arrangement. The schedules for the 2 additional trains beyond the first one have not been announced and probably have not been finalized.

As for equipment, because of the stimulus restorations of stored and wrecked Amfleet I coach cars and the conversion of around 20 café cars to coach cars, there are a lot more Amfleet Is available than there were 2-3 years ago. The shortages may be in locomotives, both electric for the NEC and diesels for operations off of the NEC (and elsewhere). The electric ACS-64s are on order, but funding the P-42 replacement order is going be a challenge.

I'm hoping that they'll extend one more of the trains down the Peninsula (as has been the plan for a while), but I also agree that at least one train is going to need to spend the night in Richmond unless they decide to have a 5 AM and 7 AM departure from NFK and put the 6 AM departure in NPN (which is also possible, I'll admit).

Getting a train down to Norfolk in the morning/back up in the evening is going to be necessary eventually...are there any candidate trains for extending to fill that, or are we likely looking at splitting 66/67 (or throwing some cars onto the Palmetto in the vein of how the Carolinian started, which is probably far too early of an afternoon departure to be desirable) if Amtrak wants to do that?

 

[Sky Pilot]

What equipment will be used for this service. I understood that equipment is in short supply. Just curious.

The first train to/from Norfolk will be an extension of a NE Regional that sits at Staples Mill Road overnight and will instead spend overnight in Norfolk. So no additional equipment for that one. They could extend all 3 early AM northbound NE Regionals departing RVR to depart from Norfolk, but that would result in the 3 daily trains departing Norfolk at approx 5 AM, 6 AM, 7 AM which is a pretty poor schedule arrangement. The schedules for the 2 additional trains beyond the first one have not been announced and probably have not been finalized.

As for equipment, because of the stimulus restorations of stored and wrecked Amfleet I coach cars and the conversion of around 20 café cars to coach cars, there are a lot more Amfleet Is available than there were 2-3 years ago. The shortages may be in locomotives, both electric for the NEC and diesels for operations off of the NEC (and elsewhere). The electric ACS-64s are on order, but funding the P-42 replacement order is going be a challenge.

I'm hoping that they'll extend one more of the trains down the Peninsula (as has been the plan for a while), but I also agree that at least one train is going to need to spend the night in Richmond unless they decide to have a 5 AM and 7 AM departure from NFK and put the 6 AM departure in NPN (which is also possible, I'll admit).

Getting a train down to Norfolk in the morning/back up in the evening is going to be necessary eventually...are there any candidate trains for extending to fill that, or are we likely looking at splitting 66/67 (or throwing some cars onto the Palmetto in the vein of how the Carolinian started, which is probably far too early of an afternoon departure to be desirable) if Amtrak wants to do that?

I'm wondering whether they will continue the bus service. They should as far as I'm concerned because it's an in expensive way to have more service and it offers an option of departing say from NFK at 0-dark 30, and if whatever return to NFK has an inconenient schedule taking the train to NPN with a bus connection to NFK (where my car would have been parked) becomes an option. For example, just pulling a WAS-NFK arrival time out of thin air, say the WAS-NFK arrival was scheduled for 11PM (if the 83 is extended to rest overnight at NFK). Well, if I took the early morning train to make my 10AM meeting in DC, i probably don't want to hang out until the 7:30PM departure from WAS if I have an option of taking the 2:30 PM (95) that gets into NPN at 6:50 PM and into NFK at 7:50PM (which is itself a very, very padded travel time in that direction at that time of day). If I have to kill six hours in the DC awaiting my return ride, I'll just drive.

My point is, given that the two rail lines parallel each other but don't connect it would be good to maintain the bus service between the two to keep travel options to a maximum. In my book, the thing that hampers ridership the most is insufficient service frequency. If Amtrak doesn't wish to do this, HRT should run shuttles optimized to the train times.

Blue skies ..

 

[Anderson]

What equipment will be used for this service. I understood that equipment is in short supply. Just curious.

The first train to/from Norfolk will be an extension of a NE Regional that sits at Staples Mill Road overnight and will instead spend overnight in Norfolk. So no additional equipment for that one. They could extend all 3 early AM northbound NE Regionals departing RVR to depart from Norfolk, but that would result in the 3 daily trains departing Norfolk at approx 5 AM, 6 AM, 7 AM which is a pretty poor schedule arrangement. The schedules for the 2 additional trains beyond the first one have not been announced and probably have not been finalized.

As for equipment, because of the stimulus restorations of stored and wrecked Amfleet I coach cars and the conversion of around 20 café cars to coach cars, there are a lot more Amfleet Is available than there were 2-3 years ago. The shortages may be in locomotives, both electric for the NEC and diesels for operations off of the NEC (and elsewhere). The electric ACS-64s are on order, but funding the P-42 replacement order is going be a challenge.

I'm hoping that they'll extend one more of the trains down the Peninsula (as has been the plan for a while), but I also agree that at least one train is going to need to spend the night in Richmond unless they decide to have a 5 AM and 7 AM departure from NFK and put the 6 AM departure in NPN (which is also possible, I'll admit).

Getting a train down to Norfolk in the morning/back up in the evening is going to be necessary eventually...are there any candidate trains for extending to fill that, or are we likely looking at splitting 66/67 (or throwing some cars onto the Palmetto in the vein of how the Carolinian started, which is probably far too early of an afternoon departure to be desirable) if Amtrak wants to do that?

I'm wondering whether they will continue the bus service. They should as far as I'm concerned because it's an in expensive way to have more service and it offers an option of departing say from NFK at 0-dark 30, and if whatever return to NFK has an inconenient schedule taking the train to NPN with a bus connection to NFK (where my car would have been parked) becomes an option. For example, just pulling a WAS-NFK arrival time out of thin air, say the WAS-NFK arrival was scheduled for 11PM (if the 83 is extended to rest overnight at NFK). Well, if I took the early morning train to make my 10AM meeting in DC, i probably don't want to hang out until the 7:30PM departure from WAS if I have an option of taking the 2:30 PM (95) that gets into NPN at 6:50 PM and into NFK at 7:50PM (which is itself a very, very padded travel time in that direction at that time of day). If I have to kill six hours in the DC awaiting my return ride, I'll just drive.

My point is, given that the two rail lines parallel each other but don't connect it would be good to maintain the bus service between the two to keep travel options to a maximum. In my book, the thing that hampers ridership the most is insufficient service frequency. If Amtrak doesn't wish to do this, HRT should run shuttles optimized to the train times.

Blue skies ..

I suspect that the schedule is such that, if they desired, they could just have one bus bounce between NFK and NPN. Cutting the Virginia Beach stop wouldn't be a deal-killer, I don't think, particularly if folks could just take The Tide to NFK, pick up the Ambus, and take the train from NPN.