Why is there still No Sunset Limited connection to Fl?

[Tumbleweed]

Is there any pending bills before congress right now that involve added service/routes? If anyone knows, please post the numbers, so we can voice our concerns.

 

[SunsetLimited01]

By now you know why the SL no longer runs to Florida.
I wish they would bring it back then I could actually take a Amtrak trip around the country. From FL, to NY, to CHI CHI to SEA. SEA to LAX, LAX back to FL prolly ORL.

Did the SL go to Lakeland?

AlanB is right it didn't run to Lakeland. It did run to Miami in early April of 1993 all the way to early 1997 until it was cutback to Orlando. I have DVD called SUNSET TRANSCON that covers the westbound inaugural run from Miami to LA.

 

[MrEd]

You used to be able to get the train in Lake City and go all the way to LA, but not lakeland.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Amtrak is NOT a business. Amtrak is a government program, a hand out.Amtrak is extremely foolish to screw the fastest growing state and second largest state Texas out

of a LD train. Same for the 4th largest state, Florida, and the southern states between.

That is a lot of support to lose being that Amtrak needs the hand outs.

Amtrak is NOT a government program. It is a Corporation, the preferred voting shares of which are owned by the United States Department Of Transportation in trust for the United States Congress and, thus, the American People. Its common stocks, which lack voting rights, are owned by the various freight roads that joined Amtrak in 1971.

Amtrak is a business, and the government is its shareholder. They want it to be held accountable to its actions, and, excessively in some cases, it is. However- Amtrak IS a Corporation. There is NOTHING, besides the fact that nobody in their right mind is interested in buying it, to prevent Congress from deciding to take care of the Amtrak "problem" via the use of selling those shares, or even an IPO.

Lastly, I did a basic paper-napkin calculation, and if you take into account the income tax paid to Amtrak's workers, 19,000 of them. If the average one makes 85,000 (sounds about right), then their employees make about $1.62 billion. If the average American pays a third of their income into taxes (again, not all that far off), than $538.3 million goes back into our country's coffers- approximately equal to Amtrak's operating budget. So from a financial point of view, you could almost say that Amtrak is operationally self-sufficient.

 

[oldtimer]

Lastly, I did a basic paper-napkin calculation, and if you take into account the income tax paid to Amtrak's workers, 19,000 of them. If the average one makes 85,000 (sounds about right), then their employees make about $1.62 billion.

Sorry GML but as a retired Amtrak employee married to a current employee, your estimate is WAY TOO HIGH. By at least 35,000 or more. My wife earns less then half your estimate and even two years ago when I was an active employee in the mechanical department and I was earning more then the average journeyman our combined income was below your estimate. You must be talking to a bunch of highly paid Amtrak employees, or they never go off the time clock.

:blink: :huh: :blink:

 

[Ryan]

Close - this says that it's $60,000 so only $25,000 off.

http://www.simplyhired.com/a/salary/search/q-amtrak

 

[oldtimer]

Close - this says that it's $60,000 so only $25,000 off.
http://www.simplyhired.com/a/salary/search/q-Amtrak

I guess you were close too.

<H2 class=heading>"Average Amtrak Salaries</H2>The average salary for Amtrak jobs is $59,000. Average amtrak salaries can vary greatly due to company, location, industry, experience and benefits."

If you use the 35 Amtrak jobs listed on their site only 8 of the jobs were agreement positions and more than half of those were for the 2 highest paid agreement positions Engineer and Conductor. If the numbers they use are from their ads they are very high as a journeyman in one of the crafts in the mechanical department makes a base of a little over 51,000 a year.

:blink: :angry: :angry:

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Lastly, I did a basic paper-napkin calculation, and if you take into account the income tax paid to Amtrak's workers, 19,000 of them. If the average one makes 85,000 (sounds about right), then their employees make about $1.62 billion.

Sorry GML but as a retired Amtrak employee married to a current employee, your estimate is WAY TOO HIGH. By at least 35,000 or more. My wife earns less then half your estimate and even two years ago when I was an active employee in the mechanical department and I was earning more then the average journeyman our combined income was below your estimate. You must be talking to a bunch of highly paid Amtrak employees, or they never go off the time clock.

:blink: :huh: :blink:

Remember, that average includes all of those managers. Those averages are usually mean higher than the median. In any case, with 60,000 being the number you guys are beating around, $379 million. And that, of course, excludes a lot of sub-contractors, and the various people that are employed in support of Amtrak. For example, people working for Aramark that work in Amtrak commissaries.

I really think that when you consider all of the directly related government revenue (the stuff that would clearly go away if Amtrak did, as opposed to less concrete things like economic development) that Amtrak covers its operating expenses. And I'd even go so far as to say, Amtrak covers its capital costs if you include those less concrete things based on reasonable estimate.

 

[hippyman]

Ok, I'm confused here. Aside from all the political bs, is the SL ever going to return to full service? And if not, why the hell not? Is it that hard to re-establish service to 3 states?

 

[dlagrua]

Ok, I'm confused here. Aside from all the political bs, is the SL ever going to return to full service? And if not, why the hell not? Is it that hard to re-establish service to 3 states?

There are no plans to restore the Sunset Limited connection from New orleans to Florida at the present time. There is a good amount of support to re-establish service but it is far from a priority right now. The NARP is pushing hard to have the service reinstated . If gas goes to $4.00 per gallon and air travel keeps deteriorating who knows what will happen but right now its a dead issue. The good thing is that the trackage remains in place and is bring used by CSX. If an when it comes to getting the Florida connection going again, all they need to do is turn the lights at the stations back on, do a bit of refurbishment and let the SL run East.

 

[hippyman]

Ok, I'm confused here. Aside from all the political bs, is the SL ever going to return to full service? And if not, why the hell not? Is it that hard to re-establish service to 3 states?

There are no plans to restore the Sunset Limited connection from New orleans to Florida at the present time. There is a good amount of support to re-establish service but it is far from a priority right now. The NARP is pushing hard to have the service reinstated . If gas goes to $4.00 per gallon and air travel keeps deteriorating who knows what will happen but right now its a dead issue. The good thing is that the trackage remains in place and is bring used by CSX. If an when it comes to getting the Florida connection going again, all they need to do is turn the lights at the stations back on, do a bit of refurbishment and let the SL run East.

Well, that seems like good news to me, at least they haven't started doing anything drastic yet, right? Hopefully, as the airlines do continue to worsen, they will finally see that we need a rail system to florida.

 

[Ryan]

Ok, I'm confused here. Aside from all the political bs, is the SL ever going to return to full service? And if not, why the hell not? Is it that hard to re-establish service to 3 states?

There are no plans to restore the Sunset Limited connection from New orleans to Florida at the present time. There is a good amount of support to re-establish service but it is far from a priority right now. The NARP is pushing hard to have the service reinstated . If gas goes to $4.00 per gallon and air travel keeps deteriorating who knows what will happen but right now its a dead issue. The good thing is that the trackage remains in place and is bring used by CSX. If an when it comes to getting the Florida connection going again, all they need to do is turn the lights at the stations back on, do a bit of refurbishment and let the SL run East.

Not quite, there's lots of plans, talk and scheming going on. The issue is far from dead...

 

[jis]

Not quite, there's lots of plans, talk and scheming going on. The issue is far from dead...

One thing that seems quite clear is that there will be no SL east until either the feds or one or more states brings some additional money in support of the train to the table.

 

[AlanB]

Not quite, there's lots of plans, talk and scheming going on. The issue is far from dead...

One thing that seems quite clear is that there will be no SL east until either the feds or one or more states brings some additional money in support of the train to the table.

Precisely! That's why there is no SL east, as Amtrak wants someone else to pay for it. The only way it comes back right now without funding, is if Congress issues an unfunded mandate to restore service.

On the other hand, it does seem that Amtrak is finally starting to think outside the box a bit regarding changes to long distance services, so who knows? Maybe one day in the future management will reconsider the funding issues if it hasn't already been resolved by someone stepping up to the plate.

I'm not holding my breath, but you never know.

 

[Tennessee Traveler]

To add another thing if the Route was running to Florida after the hurricane, then none of these Sunset East or Sunset to Florida threads wouldn't have existed in the first place. What really gets me is the idea Amtrak might do the samething to another route in the future.

Actually in the past the did this to the Desert Wind. the Pioneer. and the Broadway Limited, well used train dropped for unclear reasons, only thing Different for the SSL to Florida, Amtrak has not given the 180 day notice.

And before that the Inter-American, the Lone Star and the National Limited were discontinued too. But those, like the discontinuance of the Pioneer, the Desert Wind and the Broadway Limited were due to specific Congressional and Presidential budgetary action, and not a stealth operation like the SSL East. I am sure if Congress and the President asks Amtrak to come up with another list of trains to cut they will be legally required to do so again and follow through with the cuts if Congress says so.

Seems to me like people have forgotten the history of the 1994-97 massacre that was brought upon Amtrak by the Congress and the then popular Democrat President Clinton. Just to jog your memories here is an article from back then. If after reading it you still believe that Amtrak dropped a few trains for unclear reasons, unless of course a budget reduction of 25% appears to be quite unclear Here is another sample article.

In short there is absolutely nothing similar between what Amtrak did to SSL East and what transpired in 1994-7 leading to the demise of the Pioneer, the Desert Wind and the Broadway Limited. Indeed for a few heart stopping moments there was consideration given at one point to discontinue all New York - Chicago service back then.

Anyway, here is a not particularly skewed in any direction history of Amtrak and its trials and travails.

And don't forget around 1992 of the discontinuance of the Floridian from Chicago to Nashville to Birmingham to Orlando and Tampa. This was a definite political discontinuance and removed Amtrak from serving Tennessee except for the overnight stop in Memphis of the City of New Orleans.

Whether TN is an anti-Amtrak State I cannot answer. I just know Amtrak is an Anti-Tennessee rail system.

 

[NativeSon5859]

To add another thing if the Route was running to Florida after the hurricane, then none of these Sunset East or Sunset to Florida threads wouldn't have existed in the first place. What really gets me is the idea Amtrak might do the samething to another route in the future.

Actually in the past the did this to the Desert Wind. the Pioneer. and the Broadway Limited, well used train dropped for unclear reasons, only thing Different for the SSL to Florida, Amtrak has not given the 180 day notice.

And before that the Inter-American, the Lone Star and the National Limited were discontinued too. But those, like the discontinuance of the Pioneer, the Desert Wind and the Broadway Limited were due to specific Congressional and Presidential budgetary action, and not a stealth operation like the SSL East. I am sure if Congress and the President asks Amtrak to come up with another list of trains to cut they will be legally required to do so again and follow through with the cuts if Congress says so.

Seems to me like people have forgotten the history of the 1994-97 massacre that was brought upon Amtrak by the Congress and the then popular Democrat President Clinton. Just to jog your memories here is an article from back then. If after reading it you still believe that Amtrak dropped a few trains for unclear reasons, unless of course a budget reduction of 25% appears to be quite unclear Here is another sample article.

In short there is absolutely nothing similar between what Amtrak did to SSL East and what transpired in 1994-7 leading to the demise of the Pioneer, the Desert Wind and the Broadway Limited. Indeed for a few heart stopping moments there was consideration given at one point to discontinue all New York - Chicago service back then.

Anyway, here is a not particularly skewed in any direction history of Amtrak and its trials and travails.

And don't forget around 1992 of the discontinuance of the Floridian from Chicago to Nashville to Birmingham to Orlando and Tampa. This was a definite political discontinuance and removed Amtrak from serving Tennessee except for the overnight stop in Memphis of the City of New Orleans.

Whether TN is an anti-Amtrak State I cannot answer. I just know Amtrak is an Anti-Tennessee rail system.

FYI...Floridian was disc in 1979. I wish it were operating in 1992!

 

[hippyman]

Not quite, there's lots of plans, talk and scheming going on. The issue is far from dead...

One thing that seems quite clear is that there will be no SL east until either the feds or one or more states brings some additional money in support of the train to the table.

Precisely! That's why there is no SL east, as Amtrak wants someone else to pay for it. The only way it comes back right now without funding, is if Congress issues an unfunded mandate to restore service.

On the other hand, it does seem that Amtrak is finally starting to think outside the box a bit regarding changes to long distance services, so who knows? Maybe one day in the future management will reconsider the funding issues if it hasn't already been resolved by someone stepping up to the plate.

I'm not holding my breath, but you never know.

What do you mean by amtrak thinking outside the box? What evidence of this have you seen, and how would this help? I just want to see a cross country train again. Maybe NARP could help.

 

[jis]

What do you mean by amtrak thinking outside the box? What evidence of this have you seen, and how would this help? I just want to see a cross country train again. Maybe NARP could help.

I think a few things like the proposed conversion of the Cardinal to a St. Louis to Washington DC Superliner train, sending a section of the Silver Service down FEC in Florida, and even the daily Sunset/Eagle proposal are the sort of things that are examples of unusually out of the box thinking by some in Amtrak. Typically things that can be achieved in the way of significantly increasing network connectivity, frequency of service, and number of potential city pairs served, without requiring too much new equipment, i.e. something can be done almost immediately as opposed to in 4 or 5 years when new equipment arrives.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

And don't forget around 1992 of the discontinuance of the Floridian from Chicago to Nashville to Birmingham to Orlando and Tampa. This was a definite political discontinuance and removed Amtrak from serving Tennessee except for the overnight stop in Memphis of the City of New Orleans.
Whether TN is an anti-Amtrak State I cannot answer. I just know Amtrak is an Anti-Tennessee rail system.

Of course. Tennessee simply isn't important enough to rate rail service.

On a serious note, though, the Floridian was discontinued for a lot of reasons, and politics was not the biggest one. The Carter cuts were brutal, I don't deny it. But of all the cuts, it made the most sense. It, essentially, got rid of a lot of trains that made no sense whatsoever except for train service through the district of [influential Congressman].

Examples? Oh boy.

The

• Beacon Hill, a commuter train from Boston to New Haven (Amtrak was not, is not, supposed to be in the commuter rail business. They run it on other people's behalf under contract, but not unfunded.)
  
• Chesapeake: Another commuter train, this time from Philly to Washington.
  
• Hilltopper: The so-called Harley Staggers Special, a train to nowhere, in the form of Cattlettsburg, WV.
  
• Daily Cardinal: This daily joke... The Cardinal is and, in its current form, always will be a joke. New York to Chicago on a nearly 30 hour schedule (compared to the 18 hour schedule of 1979's Lake Shore) through places with no population but adequate highway connections? Joke. It should have died with the Carter Cuts, but a certain Byrd kept it around.
  
• Shenandoah: Sort of like a precursor to our Capital Limited. Except it went to Cincinnati (already adequately served by not one but two other trains!), and with its connection to Chicago, took over 24 hours to get there.
  
• Michigan Executive: Damn, another commuter train.
  
• North Star: Duluth, MN needed a dedicated overnight train from Chicago? Don't think so, especially not on a 13 hour schedule.
  
• Black Hawk: Clearly, the federal government needs to subsidize yet another short distance intra-state commuter train, this one to Dubuque.
  
• Floridian: A Chicago to Florida train? Makes sense, doesn't it? Not on a two night, almost 38 hour schedule, and doubly not especially with an average 10 hour lateness!
  
• Lone Star: What the world really needed was two trains losing lots of money running rarely more than 150 miles apart carrying few passengers. Clearly.
  
• North Coast Hiawatha: Another thing the world needs is a train with an average daily ridership of about 40 passengers running all the way from Chicago to Seattle never too far from another Chicago to Seattle train carrying an average 8 times the passenger load.
  

Given the low gas prices at the time, and the unbelievable inefficiency that Amtrak was running with (its budget was about the same as today's with less ridership and in 1979 dollars!) all of these cuts made sense.

 

[hippyman]

Just tossing out an idea here, but, how do ya'll think it'd work if the SL became independently financed? I mean it seems to me like the states/feds are at a standstill. They obviosly have no intent to cough up anymore money, but they dont want to get rid of it either, or they woulda torn down the stations.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Why would they tear down the stations? That'd cost money.

 

[dlagrua]

Just tossing out an idea here, but, how do ya'll think it'd work if the SL became independently financed? I mean it seems to me like the states/feds are at a standstill. They obviosly have no intent to cough up anymore money, but they dont want to get rid of it either, or they woulda torn down the stations.

Before the interstate highway system was completed and before jet travel became affordable passenger trains could make a small profit. Since the 1950's passenger trains have always been a marginally profitable or a losing business. With freight you move from one customers facility to another and you do it with a minimal crew. On a passenger train you need a larger crew and on LD trains its even larger...cooks, waiters, bar tender,SCA's, conductors etc. Then you need passenger terminals and stations along the route and the utility and maintenance costs that go with them. At the big city terminals you need janitors, ticket agents, maintenance people, first aid, redcaps, & security. If we wonder why there are not more passenger routes it is only because it comes down to making a profit. It should be noted tht rail travel is on the rise so if it keeps going this way we can expect to see improved passenger service and new routes.

 

[Hytec]

Just tossing out an idea here, but, how do ya'll think it'd work if the SL became independently financed? I mean it seems to me like the states/feds are at a standstill. They obviosly have no intent to cough up anymore money, but they dont want to get rid of it either, or they woulda torn down the stations.

Before the interstate highway system was completed and before jet travel became affordable passenger trains could make a small profit. Since the 1950's passenger trains have always been a marginally profitable or a losing business. With freight you move from one customers facility to another and you do it with a minimal crew. On a passenger train you need a larger crew and on LD trains its even larger...cooks, waiters, bar tender,SCA's, conductors etc. Then you need passenger terminals and stations along the route and the utility and maintenance costs that go with them. At the big city terminals you need janitors, ticket agents, maintenance people, first aid, redcaps, & security. If we wonder why there are not more passenger routes it is only because it comes down to making a profit. It should be noted tht rail travel is on the rise so if it keeps going this way we can expect to see improved passenger service and new routes.

After the automobile (Interstate highways) and air travel ate into rail pax profits, which was significant, the final nail in the coffin was the loss of the US Mail contracts in the mid-60s. Railroads were able to offset losses from passenger service with the profits from transporting mail prior to that time.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Just tossing out an idea here, but, how do ya'll think it'd work if the SL became independently financed? I mean it seems to me like the states/feds are at a standstill. They obviosly have no intent to cough up anymore money, but they dont want to get rid of it either, or they woulda torn down the stations.

Before the interstate highway system was completed and before jet travel became affordable passenger trains could make a small profit. Since the 1950's passenger trains have always been a marginally profitable or a losing business. With freight you move from one customers facility to another and you do it with a minimal crew. On a passenger train you need a larger crew and on LD trains its even larger...cooks, waiters, bar tender,SCA's, conductors etc. Then you need passenger terminals and stations along the route and the utility and maintenance costs that go with them. At the big city terminals you need janitors, ticket agents, maintenance people, first aid, redcaps, & security. If we wonder why there are not more passenger routes it is only because it comes down to making a profit. It should be noted tht rail travel is on the rise so if it keeps going this way we can expect to see improved passenger service and new routes.

After the automobile (Interstate highways) and air travel ate into rail pax profits, which was significant, the final nail in the coffin was the loss of the US Mail contracts in the mid-60s. Railroads were able to offset losses from passenger service with the profits from transporting mail prior to that time.

Thanks for pointing out the U S Mail. I am not sure if many people know that. Of course we know about the improved highways and airports. One further point: when you mention the highways remember that that made the bus faster than the train for the frst time on a lot of routes.

 

[had8ley]

Just tossing out an idea here, but, how do ya'll think it'd work if the SL became independently financed? I mean it seems to me like the states/feds are at a standstill. They obviosly have no intent to cough up anymore money, but they dont want to get rid of it either, or they woulda torn down the stations.

Before the interstate highway system was completed and before jet travel became affordable passenger trains could make a small profit. Since the 1950's passenger trains have always been a marginally profitable or a losing business. With freight you move from one customers facility to another and you do it with a minimal crew. On a passenger train you need a larger crew and on LD trains its even larger...cooks, waiters, bar tender,SCA's, conductors etc. Then you need passenger terminals and stations along the route and the utility and maintenance costs that go with them. At the big city terminals you need janitors, ticket agents, maintenance people, first aid, redcaps, & security. If we wonder why there are not more passenger routes it is only because it comes down to making a profit. It should be noted tht rail travel is on the rise so if it keeps going this way we can expect to see improved passenger service and new routes.

After the automobile (Interstate highways) and air travel ate into rail pax profits, which was significant, the final nail in the coffin was the loss of the US Mail contracts in the mid-60s. Railroads were able to offset losses from passenger service with the profits from transporting mail prior to that time.

Thanks for pointing out the U S Mail. I am not sure if many people know that. Of course we know about the improved highways and airports. One further point: when you mention the highways remember that that made the bus faster than the train for the frst time on a lot of routes.

We could reach back a little further back in time than when Postmaster Day signed the mail over to the airlines; Railway Express had their own cars and milk was handled on some local pax trains on a daily basis. RPO's rode almost every through train except for the "high varnish."