WMATA Red Line Collision

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If Rhor built cars, these are the first set of cars. They had a lot of teething tourbles. I think these were the first rail cars Rohr had ever built, and maybe also the last.
You know, Rohr built another glorified tin-can everyone seems to love around here. The Turboliners.

That being said, crashworthiness and weight are probably mildly correlated but not by much. Crashing into an immovable object, you have the choice of driving a Mercedes W124 body sedan, or a Hummer. Which would you pick? If you pick the Hummer, you picked wrong. It doesn't have airbags, it has very limited crush structure, and you are likely dead if the speed was all that high due to all kinds of deficiencies in its design. Indeed, it is the very weight that allows it to run on the road without meeting passenger vehicle crash standards.

On the other hand, the Mercedes W124 is a study in crashworthiness. There are 72 patents covering the various design aspects of the cars frontal crash structure alone. Depending on model, (after all there were everything from the crank-windowed, vinyl uphostered, radio-less 2-litre 84bhp 4 cylinder diesel 200D to the fully loaded 322bhp 5 litre V8 tuned by Porsche 500Es) it weighs less than half what a Hummer does. Volvo's 240 design, a grand old battlewagon of a car, is one of the best rated safety cars ever and its even lighter.

You can build a safer vehicle by just adding weight. Its true. But you don't have to add much weight to significantly increase safety.
 
AThe WMATA cars are all lightly built. Strength can be had without excessive weight, but the car builders in Europe and elsewhere propogandize that such is not possible. Management buys into that so does not require the strength that they ought to.
Still banging that old drum? Best way to survive a crash is not have one in the first place. Anything else is just window dressing.
Yes I am, and with no apologies to anybody for doing so. These people that are trying to sell glorified tin cans as rail cars have blood on their hands as far as I am concerned.

If you think all accidents are preventable, you do not live in the world of reality.
It helps if the engineers are not busy texting people.....

You can't prevent accidents entirely but you can have more control over what happens to stop trains colliding, rather than come up with some purely random nonsense about building indestructible rail vehicles and controlling what happens in a crash.

Better see if Superman can come up with Kryptonite Railcars....
This kinda goes without saying but I will say it anyways... The engineer on this train was EXTREMELY alert if the evidence that the E-brake had been applied and engaged 100+ feet out. One report online suggest that the engineer would not have been able to see the stopped train until 600 or so feet out. If this train was moving at 60 mph for this engineer to have realized that this train was on the same track, apply the brakes, then to have them taken effect for even 100 feet, she had to have acted extremely fast.

Despite some weird and uncalled for headlines... I do not think this accident will in any way be chalked up to engineer failure.

Even if you were referring to the metrolink accident.. I still say something is fishy there... while the engineer should not have been texting railfans while on duty... I have trouble believing that was the key cause of the accident, and signal malfunctions did not play any role. But that is for a different thread...

My point is... take all cell phones away and only hire perfect engineers and accidents can still happen.
 
Crashing into an immovable object, you have the choice of driving a Mercedes W124 body sedan, or a Hummer. Which would you pick? If you pick the Hummer, you picked wrong. It doesn't have airbags,...
Well, the W124 itself doesn't even have side air bags (does it even have a front passenger air bag?).

In terms of crash safety, it is so very "old school" (with what a safety design dating way back to 1984?), lacking completely with any of the state-of-the-art safety systems today's top sedans offer.

Technology is constantly moving forward. Anything which might have once been a showcase of the best at the time it came out, leaves only a "romantic" memory later on, as technology leaves it behind especially after decades.
 
It helps if the engineers are not busy texting people.....
I don't think you have to take the cellphones away, just make using them while on the job for anything other than legitimate railroad use (i.e., emergency use when the engine's radio doesn't or can't do the job) an immediate termination offense, with a written permission, upon hiring, for the company to randomly inspect the engineer's cellphone records, and check them against the engineer's working-time records.

It has been widely reported that in this most recent crash the engineer on the moving train, who was killed in the crash, not only was NOT using her cellphone, her cellphone was found to be in her (zippered-up) backpack.
 
Since it takes forever for govt. investigations and even longer for the "Final" report to be released,

and considering the current state or "reporting" in our so called media,especially in incidents involving

death and major injuiries, most "reports" seem to stress the blame the engineer/pilot/driver etc.

without consdering that automated and high tech solutions while miracles of engineering that exist

today!Easy answer: "the person was on their phone or stoned or drunk!!"We need quicker investigations,

more honest and informed reporting and government reports that dont have to be approved by

everyone in Washington and politically cleared before the truth is reported in the classified pages or the

4AM version of the local news!
 
Crashing into an immovable object, you have the choice of driving a Mercedes W124 body sedan, or a Hummer. Which would you pick? If you pick the Hummer, you picked wrong. It doesn't have airbags,...
Well, the W124 itself doesn't even have side air bags (does it even have a front passenger air bag?).

In terms of crash safety, it is so very "old school" (with what a safety design dating way back to 1984?), lacking completely with any of the state-of-the-art safety systems today's top sedans offer.

Technology is constantly moving forward. Anything which might have once been a showcase of the best at the time it came out, leaves only a "romantic" memory later on, as technology leaves it behind especially after decades.
The car was sold in the US with a standard drivers airbag from '86 (the first year it was sold here) an optional passenger airbag from '89, and standard passenger airbag from '92. It was the first car in the United States to be sold with a modern airbag as standard. It also has pyrotechnical seatbelt pre-tensioners (another first, by the way) and remote-folding rear-seat headrests (yet another first) as well as a unique single pantographic wiper arm that clears more of the windshield, percentage-wise, of any design but the W140s twin-arm pantographic system. It also was the second design to offer the now industry-standard Multi-link rear suspension system.

Furthermore, its body structure was the stiffest in production when it went into production in 1985. It was the stiffest in production when it went out of production in 1996! Its replacement, which was retrogressive in almost every way but build cost (not to mention being extremely rust prone!), was, in fact, 3% less stiff in torsional stiffness, and 2% less stiff in bending resistance. It is capable of supporting 915% of its weight on its roof- compared to 720% of its W210 replacement.

Here is where your logic falls down: The W124 was the last mid-size Mercedes to be designed before the advent of Lexus. Like all other Mercedes built in those days, it was built on a cost-plus basis, and whatever it cost to build was what it cost to build. It was engineered to an ideal, not a price. It was aerodynamic, very good handling, very good ride, fast with six and eight cylinder engines, and was unquestioned as the safest car in the world. It was, for a decade, the blueprint from which all other cars were designed. Today, Mercedes is pretty well regarded. 20 years ago, they were considered, and in fact, were, peerless.

Its successor, the W210, was raced into production. The W124 was so expensive to build that in order to maintain sales momentum in the US, they were sold at a minimal profit for the 1994 and 1995 model years. In fact, on one particular model built to satisfy their most loyal of customers, the E300 Diesel, was sold at a loss per car of about $1400. The W210's number one design brief? Cut 25% build cost out of the E-class range. It failed to do that, until the M112 V6 and V8 engines came on line in 1998.

Excluding side-impact airbags, whose value I concede, all advances in automotive safety succeeding the W124 was in the area of electronics, a dubious area indeed. The W124 chassis, by the way, was eventually fitted with side airbags. It is still in production in South Korea, and was until the introduction of the Hyundai Genesis models, considered the best executive car in Korea- as the Ssangyong Chairman.

The design and engineering of automobiles reached their zenith with the debut of the Series-3 W124 in 1993- and have been downhill ever since.
 
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With all due respect, we're getting a little bit off-topic here. The issue is the crashworthiness of the DC Metro trains, not that of automobiles.

Here is a question that I have: on the San Francisco BART system, there are A, B, and C cars. A cars must be placed at the end of the train; they have a wedge-shaped cab end, meaning it is not possible to walk through the cab end of one to another car. B cars, on the other hand, must be placed in the middle of the train; there is no operator's cab. C cars have a smaller cab than the A cars, and a vertical, not sloping front, so they can be used anywhere in the train. Typically they are cars 4 & 5 of an 8- or 9-car train, or 5 & 6 of a 10-car train. As far as I know, a train may include A, B, and C cars, or B & C cars, or A & B cars, or C cars only. Cars purchased at different times can be run in the same train.

So here's the question: Can cars purchased at different times be used in the same Metro trains? For example, I've read that the following train in the DC accident had a 1000-series car, and that these cars will probably be removed from service, which will cause disruptions (fewer and/or shorter trains in particular). But can these cars be assigned to service in the middle of trains only, or are they incompatible with other cars?
 
The Washington Metro has 1k through 6k cars, of which the 1k, 2k and 3k have been rehabbed. In theory, you can make a consist of any type of cars (they're in permanently married pairs, so consists are always an even number of cars up to 8), in practice I think that there are some "oddities" that make certain combination not act quite right. You usually see the 6k series be in consists all their own, but I have seen them mixed in to others on occasion.

Metro recently put out the RFP for the 7k series cars, which were to replace the 1k and add enough new cars to support the extension to Dulles. For the first time, WMATA specified that the new cars need not be compatible with the old cars, although I recall reading something that when the 4k series cars go in for their rehab that they'll be made compatible with the 7k series. But, since the RFP just went out and no decision has been made yet, all of this is still years down the tracks.

The Red Line is going to be back fully in operation, except it'll be running something like 15 minute headways with a 35 MPH max speed - that's going to put a major crimp in moving folks into the city this morning.
 
Since it takes forever for govt. investigations and even longer for the "Final" report to be released, and considering the current state or "reporting" in our so called media,especially in incidents involving death and major injuiries, most "reports" seem to stress the blame the engineer/pilot/driver etc. without consdering that automated and high tech solutions while miracles of engineering that exist today! Easy answer: "the person was on their phone or stoned or drunk!!"We need quicker investigations, more honest and informed reporting and government reports that dont have to be approved by everyone in Washington and politically cleared before the truth is reported in the classified pages or the 4AM version of the local news!
Leaping to conclusions is the favorite form of exercise for the media, so anything they come up with should be, if not almost an automatic response to do so, discounted by any listener/watcher with more intelligence than a cabbage. In general, watch the pictures and ignore the sound, and be very careful about even believing the pictures, as what is just outside the frame could be very significant.

Yes, somewhat quicker completion by the NTSB of their reports would be nice, but I would rather have comprehensive and correct than speed. In general, "poitically correct" is not part of the NTSB mandate. Sometimes they seem to be harder on the management and rules enforcement and more lenient on the front line people, and they do have certain obsessions with certain forms of automation but otherwise they are generally very good. In case of disagreement between the NTSB and almost anybody else, I would tend to believe the NTSB take on things.
 
Thanks, I believe you are correct, my point is really about the media, perhaps govt. spokespersons

can be clearer about not jumping to conclusions or mass hysteria since most folks outside washington and

new york tend to get their "news" off the net or on a text from someone who saw it on "fox noise" or

one of the bloggers that doesnt have a clue!The NTSB Is usually correct, of course the FAA and other

govt. agencies seem to be able to ignore their findings/recommendations etc. Im not in DC anymore but

it seems that with the new Obama gangin town things might be improving!Glad to hear the Red Line is

back in operation, my old lifeline!!!Also great that the operator seems to have been doing a first rate

job and tried to be heroic!
 
it seems that with the new Obama gangin town things might be improving!
Suggest that you leave the politics out of it. A lot of us are not at all enamored with the actions of the Obama gang, considering it basically a no substance smoke and mirrors act, with what little substance there is downright scarey. Not to get a political flame war started, just to remind people that there are other opinions out there concerning the crowd in charge.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program . . . .
 
http://www.news8.net/news/stories/0709/638736.html

I just saw a story on CNN where they displayed a couple of these videos on YouTube. According to CNN, the driver in the Green Line video was identified and suspended without pay for five days.

They were careful not to insinuate that the operator that was killed was guilty of any of this, but their main contention seemed to be that pax have gotten spooked.
 
What's particularly galling is that some of the suits that were filed this week were against WMATA and the operator of the second train personally, alleging that she wasn't paying proper attention and that her recklessness caused the collision. By all accounts, she did a D--M fine job to get on the brakes at all, given the speed and limited site distance as you go around the curve. That sort of thing is really, really appalling to me.

In news related to ALC's posts, WMATA has changed their policy - get caught using an electronic device while operating a train or a bus and you're fired on the spot.
 
What's particularly galling is that some of the suits that were filed this week were against WMATA and the operator of the second train personally, alleging that she wasn't paying proper attention and that her recklessness caused the collision. By all accounts, she did a D--M fine job to get on the brakes at all, given the speed and limited site distance as you go around the curve. That sort of thing is really, really appalling to me.
In news related to ALC's posts, WMATA has changed their policy - get caught using an electronic device while operating a train or a bus and you're fired on the spot.
Do they have dead man's switches in those cabs? I mean with all the automation with the WMATA I wonder if it's possible that the drivers get lulled into a sense of-- "an accident is never going to happen" ?
 
Do they have dead man's switches in those cabs? I mean with all the automation with the WMATA I wonder if it's possible that the drivers get lulled into a sense of-- "an accident is never going to happen" ?
Well yes and no.

If the motorman is in manual, then yes there is a dead man's feature that would be active.

If the train is in automatic, then the computer won't care if the driver's awake, alive, or not. The train would just make its next regularly scheduled stop and then it would sit there until someone came to investigate why the doors didn't close.
 
Do they have dead man's switches in those cabs? I mean with all the automation with the WMATA I wonder if it's possible that the drivers get lulled into a sense of-- "an accident is never going to happen" ?
Well yes and no.

If the motorman is in manual, then yes there is a dead man's feature that would be active.

If the train is in automatic, then the computer won't care if the driver's awake, alive, or not. The train would just make its next regularly scheduled stop and then it would sit there until someone came to investigate why the doors didn't close.
... And nobody sees the possible fault in that last bit?
 
What's particularly galling is that some of the suits that were filed this week were against WMATA and the operator of the second train personally, alleging that she wasn't paying proper attention and that her recklessness caused the collision. By all accounts, she did a D--M fine job to get on the brakes at all, given the speed and limited site distance as you go around the curve. That sort of thing is really, really appalling to me.
That's for the jury ultimately to decide. That is if the case even makes it to trial. There's a good chance it would be settled out of court.
 
Do they have dead man's switches in those cabs? I mean with all the automation with the WMATA I wonder if it's possible that the drivers get lulled into a sense of-- "an accident is never going to happen" ?
Well yes and no.

If the motorman is in manual, then yes there is a dead man's feature that would be active.

If the train is in automatic, then the computer won't care if the driver's awake, alive, or not. The train would just make its next regularly scheduled stop and then it would sit there until someone came to investigate why the doors didn't close.
... And nobody sees the possible fault in that last bit?
This crash is the perfect example of why it doesn't matter. From all info currently available, the poor operator of the train was exactly where she was supposed to be, did everything she was supposed to do in the most timely matter, and a dead mans feature wouldn't have changed the outcome. It is possible that maybe her last second actions of hitting the mushroom, may have saved a few lives by slowing the train ever so slightly.

But otherwise, if the system works right, having a deadman's feature while on auto is useless. If the system fails, it won't matter if you've got a deadman's feature or not. Heck, even if she had been running manually, it wouldn't have mattered. The system told her that the track was clear, she would have come around that curve at close to the same speed and the results would have been tragically similar.

And looking at from the other side of things, I'd much rather have a train on auto pull into a station, open its doors and then just sit there if the operator is somehow incapacitate, than have a deadman's feature that stops the train in the tunnel. Now you've got to send someone down the tunnel to get the train and in the meantime you've got passengers panicking, since there will be no announcement, and eventually passengers trying to get out while in the tunnel and possibly being electrocuted or hit by another train. So no, I see no fault in that.
 
In a way it is a dead man's switch... in principle. It does make more sense on a closed system. I guess I am in the mindset of having a heavy-rail system with grade crossings and trespassers where you want the engineer in control.
 
In a way it is a dead man's switch... in principle. It does make more sense on a closed system. I guess I am in the mindset of having a heavy-rail system with grade crossings and trespassers where you want the engineer in control.
Heavy rail, definitionally, does not have grade crossing (or very many if it does). A subway is an example of heavy rail, as is an elevated. I think you're thinking of commuter/intercity rail.
 
In a way it is a dead man's switch... in principle. It does make more sense on a closed system. I guess I am in the mindset of having a heavy-rail system with grade crossings and trespassers where you want the engineer in control.
Heavy rail, definitionally, does not have grade crossing (or very many if it does). A subway is an example of heavy rail, as is an elevated. I think you're thinking of commuter/intercity rail.
And I think you mean "very few if it does". But we all make lexical mistakes, I am the prime example! :lol:
 
In a way it is a dead man's switch... in principle. It does make more sense on a closed system. I guess I am in the mindset of having a heavy-rail system with grade crossings and trespassers where you want the engineer in control.
Heavy rail, definitionally, does not have grade crossing (or very many if it does). A subway is an example of heavy rail, as is an elevated. I think you're thinking of commuter/intercity rail.
WMATA has no grade crossings except in their yards in locations where the only road vehicles going across these crossings are their own.
 
In a way it is a dead man's switch... in principle. It does make more sense on a closed system. I guess I am in the mindset of having a heavy-rail system with grade crossings and trespassers where you want the engineer in control.
Heavy rail, definitionally, does not have grade crossing (or very many if it does). A subway is an example of heavy rail, as is an elevated. I think you're thinking of commuter/intercity rail.
WMATA has no grade crossings except in their yards in locations where the only road vehicles going across these crossings are their own.
I know. I would consider WMATA a heavy-rail system. It seemed to me that ALC was making the all-too-common mistake of confusing heavy rail with commuter/regional/inter-city/long-distance rail. Too many people make it. I actually sat through a presentation by someone who was extoling the wonderful virtues of light-rail over heavy-rail. You know, things like greater frequency and much higher capacity. :rolleyes:
 
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