Why is the cardinal trains 50 and 51 always late ?

[amtrakrider]

does anyone know as to why the cardinal trains are always late, i have taken that train about three times and the first time i took it i was supposed to leave cincinnati, ohio at like 450 in the morning but the train didnt get to the station til like 8 in the morning almost 4 hours late. when i took the train again but from washington dc to cincinnati it was running ontime til it got to some station i dont know when it became late cause i fell asleep on it but i know it was running at least 3 hours late and then on the way back to washington dc it was running late again but this time it didnt get to the station until like 6 or 7 in the morning.

like i said before my first time taking the cardnial train from cincinnati i was to leave there at 450 am but the train didnt get in til abot 8 in the morning and when it finally got to washington dc amtrak held the over night regional train #66 to boston for at least 30 minutes after it was to leave. I didnt have a ticket for that train cause i had a feeling that the train was going to be late but i wasnt expecting it to be that late.

so if anyone can tell me why the cardnial train always runs late cause i am planning on my next trip and i would love to take that train again but i can never figure out why its always late. Does anyone know ?

 

[AlanB]

The Cardinal is often late for the very same reason that most LD's are late, it runs on freight RR's and is therefore at the mercy of the host RR. In the case of the Cardinal, it is further hampered by the fact that it only runs three days per week. That makes it a bit harder for the freight Co's to schedule things around them as you've got to keep looking to see what day it is and whether you need to expect the Cardinal to be coming along or not.

All that said, as I noted in this topic, the Cardinal had the 4th best on time performance last year for Amtrak amongst the LD's. Granted it was on time only 27% of the time, which isn't very impressive, but nonetheless it did come in 4th.

 

[The Metropolitan]

Your query interested me since I'm due to catch Cardinal #50 in 2 weeks. I caught the Westbound #51 in September, and we arrived in CHI only 10 minutes late, and despite a number of days when I checked its OTP prior to that trip and was disappointed, I'd noticed in random checks since that its OTP had gotten quite a bit better.

So I decided to peep at #50's arrival at home, and got quite a suprise!

Many here will recall that 50 and 51 had been combined across the NEC with a corridor train, but the arrival time shown here would seem to indicate that at least for #50, that operation may have since been discontinued, as no NEC local train would be leaving 45 minutes up!

Anyone here know what the situation is behind this!??

 

[AmtrakWPK]

Cardinal #50, from Alexandria on, only stops to detrain passengers, it does not take any passengers onboard. That means there is no reason for it to wait until it's scheduled time before leaving. Trains 97 and 91 Southbound into Miami operate the same way from West Palm Beach on South. And the Sunset Limited, (back when it actually ran all the way to Orlando) did the same thing for all stations South of Jacksonville. If you look at the Timetable, you will see a 'D' at each of those stations, indicating that fact.

 

[The Metropolitan]

AmtrakWPK,

Please take a peek at the following, and I'll explain...

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l4/mtabu...ombinedcard.gif

With the October 30th Schedule change, the Cardinal was setup to no longer operate in its own slot along the NEC, but rather to have a Regional consist tacked on its backside which was to be sent along the corridor with the Cardinal. Such a move was done presumably to save an engine and Operations crew, though 50/51 was essentially to be operated independent of the corridor train (it's own conductors, and likely a blockade to prevent the regional pax from entering the cars of the Cardinal.)

You'll note the times for the Cardinal and the regional match verbatim across the corridor for Baltimore North (DC times don't since the Cardinal's time is geared towards movement from the South, whereas the corridor consist's time is geared towards North). I've ridden the 51/183 combination and was wowed at just how long the train is.

The early departure in the graphic in my post above however suggests that the combination of the #50 with the #188 was NOT done yesterday, leading me to wonder if this practice has stopped, at least for the Eastbound operation.

In any event, I should be aboard this train (#50) in 2 weeks through the DC stopover, so I should be able to offer a report.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

OK I see your point. I wasn't aware that they were doing that, but from down here in the far South, I have to admit I don't even attempt to keep up with what goes on in the NEC. The early departure sure suggests it was operating as Cardinal ONLY that day, since I can't imagine leaving early if it was operating in normal mode (accepting as well as detraining pax). Combining the two would save an operating slot by physically putting both trains into one operating slot, but it sounds like it doesn't save any personnel hours, except perhaps one engineer for that segment? Let us know what you find out.

 

[The Metropolitan]

I think I've found the answer already...Boy was I asleep at the switch!

If I look to book an online ticket on #50, or look at my own reservation for #50, it shows an arrival at Baltimore of 7:38pm.

When I look at the scheduled departure of #50 from BAL on the post above, it's set for 7:41pm.

However, the PDF schedule of the combined services shows a departure from Baltimore of 7:55pm, as the regional's schedule indicates it at BWI at 7:38pm when the Cardinal is at BAL.

Judging from this, the experiment was not a success, and the combination has been broken between 50 and 188.

51 and 183/131(Sun) still shows the same times in the reservation system, so my guess would be the Eastbound was broken due to poor OTP of #50 coming off its LD stretch.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

Quite frankly it does seem a little optimistic (to be polite) to think that you could successfully tie a regional to the destination end of a LD train, given the relatively putrid OTP of most LDs. It would require double-spotting the train, probably, because as you noted, it makes for a long train, probably longer than most platforms could handle with a single spot. Trying to do it on the origination end also is problematic because you would have to increase the dwell time at the stations where the LD was taking on pax, because of baggage and also LD pax are usually carrying more "stuff". And here again it would either require long platforms or double spotting the train to allow on-and-off for the regional and (probably) on-only for the LD. Another not-too-well-thought-out plan to save a few bucks that fouls up just about everything involved. And if you're not careful, the slower all-around progress of that combined train could clog up the works for regionals (or Acelas) trying to run behind it.

If it ain't broke, DON'T FIX IT!

 

[AlanB]

Quite frankly it does seem a little optimistic (to be polite) to think that you could successfully tie a regional to the destination end of a LD train, given the relatively putrid OTP of most LDs. It would require double-spotting the train, probably, because as you noted, it makes for a long train, probably longer than most platforms could handle with a single spot. Trying to do it on the origination end also is problematic because you would have to increase the dwell time at the stations where the LD was taking on pax, because of baggage and also LD pax are usually carrying more "stuff". And here again it would either require long platforms or double spotting the train to allow on-and-off for the regional and (probably) on-only for the LD. Another not-too-well-thought-out plan to save a few bucks that fouls up just about everything involved. And if you're not careful, the slower all-around progress of that combined train could clog up the works for regionals (or Acelas) trying to run behind it.If it ain't broke, DON'T FIX IT!

Well with the Cardinal typically only pulling 4 to 5 cars, it's easy enough to tack on another 5 or so for the regional, since most of the NEC platforms can handle 10 to 12 cars easily. So in that regard, heading south/west bound it probably does make sense to create one long train. However considering the 27% OTP of the Card, it probably does not make sense to delay the regional simply to combine with the Card.

 

[had8ley]

Quite frankly it does seem a little optimistic (to be polite) to think that you could successfully tie a regional to the destination end of a LD train, given the relatively putrid OTP of most LDs. It would require double-spotting the train, probably, because as you noted, it makes for a long train, probably longer than most platforms could handle with a single spot. Trying to do it on the origination end also is problematic because you would have to increase the dwell time at the stations where the LD was taking on pax, because of baggage and also LD pax are usually carrying more "stuff". And here again it would either require long platforms or double spotting the train to allow on-and-off for the regional and (probably) on-only for the LD. Another not-too-well-thought-out plan to save a few bucks that fouls up just about everything involved. And if you're not careful, the slower all-around progress of that combined train could clog up the works for regionals (or Acelas) trying to run behind it.

If it ain't broke, DON'T FIX IT!

Well with the Cardinal typically only pulling 4 to 5 cars, it's easy enough to tack on another 5 or so for the regional, since most of the NEC platforms can handle 10 to 12 cars easily. So in that regard, heading south/west bound it probably does make sense to create one long train. However considering the 27% OTP of the Card, it probably does not make sense to delay the regional simply to combine with the Card.

There's always the Amtrak bean counter (I almost think they are locked in an office in the deep pits of GCT) who thinks he can save on labor costs and winds up running off more business than an engineer's salary for one trip.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

Well with the Cardinal typically only pulling 4 to 5 cars, it's easy enough to tack on another 5 or so for the regional

I keep forgetting that there are much shorter LDs than what we have down here (Silver Star, Silver Meteor) and also the former Silver Palm/Palmetto and Sunset that used to be here. The Star and Meteor are usually 44-48 axles in length (2 engines plus 9-10 cars).

 

[had8ley]

Well with the Cardinal typically only pulling 4 to 5 cars, it's easy enough to tack on another 5 or so for the regional

I keep forgetting that there are much shorter LDs than what we have down here (Silver Star, Silver Meteor) and also the former Silver Palm/Palmetto and Sunset that used to be here. The Star and Meteor are usually 44-48 axles in length (2 engines plus 9-10 cars).

Yes sir. Even the Superlined City of New Orleans looks skimpy compared to some of the Silver Service trains especially when they run three Viewliner sleepers and two units. One engine is the name of the game all the way to Chicago from New Orleans and usually about a 6 car consist total.

 

[amtrakrider]

Well with the Cardinal typically only pulling 4 to 5 cars, it's easy enough to tack on another 5 or so for the regional

I keep forgetting that there are much shorter LDs than what we have down here (Silver Star, Silver Meteor) and also the former Silver Palm/Palmetto and Sunset that used to be here. The Star and Meteor are usually 44-48 axles in length (2 engines plus 9-10 cars).

Yes sir. Even the Superlined City of New Orleans looks skimpy compared to some of the Silver Service trains especially when they run three Viewliner sleepers and two units. One engine is the name of the game all the way to Chicago from New Orleans and usually about a 6 car consist total.

wow this is great cause i was looking to see if the train was running late last night after seeing what was posted it turns out that it was late by one hour and three minutes getting into chicago and going in the other direction to new york was running at least 10 minutes early but it is still to early to tell but after reading all this and now checking on it again it seems amtrak has done some major on time changes on this train

thanks for the info guys

 

[AlanB]

Well with the Cardinal typically only pulling 4 to 5 cars, it's easy enough to tack on another 5 or so for the regional

I keep forgetting that there are much shorter LDs than what we have down here (Silver Star, Silver Meteor) and also the former Silver Palm/Palmetto and Sunset that used to be here. The Star and Meteor are usually 44-48 axles in length (2 engines plus 9-10 cars).

Yup, the poor Cardinal only gets one Viewliner sleeper, 1 cafe, and 2 or 3 coaches. There is no bag, no crew dorm, and no diner. It does get two motors, but one doesn't care about them since they don't need to platform and of course they are taken off anyhow at WAS.

 

[AlanB]

Well with the Cardinal typically only pulling 4 to 5 cars, it's easy enough to tack on another 5 or so for the regional

I keep forgetting that there are much shorter LDs than what we have down here (Silver Star, Silver Meteor) and also the former Silver Palm/Palmetto and Sunset that used to be here. The Star and Meteor are usually 44-48 axles in length (2 engines plus 9-10 cars).

Yes sir. Even the Superlined City of New Orleans looks skimpy compared to some of the Silver Service trains especially when they run three Viewliner sleepers and two units. One engine is the name of the game all the way to Chicago from New Orleans and usually about a 6 car consist total.

Hmm, I thought that Amtrak had undone that policy of running only one motor on an LD for all trains. Have you seen a recent consist with only one?

I know that they don't do it here in the east anymore, per their agreement with CSX and NS.

 

[amtrakrider]

Well with the Cardinal typically only pulling 4 to 5 cars, it's easy enough to tack on another 5 or so for the regional

I keep forgetting that there are much shorter LDs than what we have down here (Silver Star, Silver Meteor) and also the former Silver Palm/Palmetto and Sunset that used to be here. The Star and Meteor are usually 44-48 axles in length (2 engines plus 9-10 cars).

Yes sir. Even the Superlined City of New Orleans looks skimpy compared to some of the Silver Service trains especially when they run three Viewliner sleepers and two units. One engine is the name of the game all the way to Chicago from New Orleans and usually about a 6 car consist total.

Hmm, I thought that Amtrak had undone that policy of running only one motor on an LD for all trains. Have you seen a recent consist with only one?

I know that they don't do it here in the east anymore, per their agreement with CSX and NS.

i have been looking at some photos and it appears that they r now using superliner cars on the cardinal but i never seen them used for the cardinal when i took that train a few years ago anyone know if they changed that

 

[AmtrakCrescent20]

Well with the Cardinal typically only pulling 4 to 5 cars, it's easy enough to tack on another 5 or so for the regional

I keep forgetting that there are much shorter LDs than what we have down here (Silver Star, Silver Meteor) and also the former Silver Palm/Palmetto and Sunset that used to be here. The Star and Meteor are usually 44-48 axles in length (2 engines plus 9-10 cars).

Yes sir. Even the Superlined City of New Orleans looks skimpy compared to some of the Silver Service trains especially when they run three Viewliner sleepers and two units. One engine is the name of the game all the way to Chicago from New Orleans and usually about a 6 car consist total.

Hmm, I thought that Amtrak had undone that policy of running only one motor on an LD for all trains. Have you seen a recent consist with only one?

I know that they don't do it here in the east anymore, per their agreement with CSX and NS.

I rode the Texas eagle a month ago, and it had only one P42. I beleive that the Eagle and City of New Orleans are the only Superliner trains (besides the Hoosier State, Heartland Flyer, and occasional midwest corridor train equipped with superliners) that have 1 locomotive

 

[amtrakrider]

Well with the Cardinal typically only pulling 4 to 5 cars, it's easy enough to tack on another 5 or so for the regional

I keep forgetting that there are much shorter LDs than what we have down here (Silver Star, Silver Meteor) and also the former Silver Palm/Palmetto and Sunset that used to be here. The Star and Meteor are usually 44-48 axles in length (2 engines plus 9-10 cars).

Yes sir. Even the Superlined City of New Orleans looks skimpy compared to some of the Silver Service trains especially when they run three Viewliner sleepers and two units. One engine is the name of the game all the way to Chicago from New Orleans and usually about a 6 car consist total.

Hmm, I thought that Amtrak had undone that policy of running only one motor on an LD for all trains. Have you seen a recent consist with only one?

I know that they don't do it here in the east anymore, per their agreement with CSX and NS.

I rode the Texas eagle a month ago, and it had only one P42. I beleive that the Eagle and City of New Orleans are the only Superliner trains (besides the Hoosier State, Heartland Flyer, and occasional midwest corridor train equipped with superliners) that have 1 locomotive

thats what i thought too but in the photos it looked like they changed it to superliner cars for the coaches and have a viewliner for the sleeping car but in the amtrak system timetable it still says viewliner for the sleeping car but what do they use for the coaches

 

[The Metropolitan]

Amfleet II's = Superliners can't clear the tunnel approaches into BAL, NY Penn Station, and run uncomfortably close to the NEC's catenary.

 

[amtrakrider]

Amfleet II's = Superliners can't clear the tunnel approaches into BAL, NY Penn Station, and run uncomfortably close to the NEC's catenary.

okay thats what i thought too but i just wasnt sure so thats why i had also asked that cause in some of the photo's that i have seen from online they are listed as being on the cardinal and i have never seen any of the superliner cars on the cardinal so now at least i know that my question has been answered i am glad and thank god that they have changed the on-time status from being late by almost 4 hours to being 20 minutes early which i am still in shock about

 

[MrFSS]

Amfleet II's = Superliners can't clear the tunnel approaches into BAL, NY Penn Station, and run uncomfortably close to the NEC's catenary.

okay thats what i thought too but i just wasnt sure so thats why i had also asked that cause in some of the photo's that i have seen from online they are listed as being on the cardinal and i have never seen any of the superliner cars on the cardinal so now at least i know that my question has been answered i am glad and thank god that they have changed the on-time status from being late by almost 4 hours to being 20 minutes early which i am still in shock about

Are you seeing a viewliner or two? Sometimes a picture at a certain angle or from a distance makes the viewliners (two sets of windows) look somewhat like a superliner car.

 

[The Metropolitan]

Two things to note:

Cardinal at some times in its life has run with Superliners when it ran as a truncated route from CHI-WAS. Sometimes I've noticed when searching for photos on sites like railpictures.net, the DATE ADDED field is more prominent than the date photographed field, which has made me erroneously think F-40PH's are still hauling trains in older schemes. :lol:

And as I've oft heard stated here, past performance is no guarantee of future performance. Dependable trains like the EB can run hours late, while notoriously unreliable ones like the Sunset can roll across their intermediate stations like clockwork!

 

[AlanB]

Amfleet II's = Superliners can't clear the tunnel approaches into BAL, NY Penn Station, and run uncomfortably close to the NEC's catenary.

okay thats what i thought too but i just wasnt sure so thats why i had also asked that cause in some of the photo's that i have seen from online they are listed as being on the cardinal and i have never seen any of the superliner cars on the cardinal so now at least i know that my question has been answered i am glad and thank god that they have changed the on-time status from being late by almost 4 hours to being 20 minutes early which i am still in shock about

The Cardinal hasn't used Superliner cars in over 3 years now. It did use to run with Superliners, back when it terminated in DC. But as mentioned by The Metropolitan, it can't run north of DC when using Superliners.

As for the train going from on time to 4 hours late, I'm not surprised. It's very easy for that to happen. All it takes is a stalled freight train, a switch problem, even quite a bit of slow running can do it.

 

[amtrakrider]

Amfleet II's = Superliners can't clear the tunnel approaches into BAL, NY Penn Station, and run uncomfortably close to the NEC's catenary.

okay thats what i thought too but i just wasnt sure so thats why i had also asked that cause in some of the photo's that i have seen from online they are listed as being on the cardinal and i have never seen any of the superliner cars on the cardinal so now at least i know that my question has been answered i am glad and thank god that they have changed the on-time status from being late by almost 4 hours to being 20 minutes early which i am still in shock about

The Cardinal hasn't used Superliner cars in over 3 years now. It did use to run with Superliners, back when it terminated in DC. But as mentioned by The Metropolitan, it can't run north of DC when using Superliners.

As for the train going from on time to 4 hours late, I'm not surprised. It's very easy for that to happen. All it takes is a stalled freight train, a switch problem, even quite a bit of slow running can do it.

yeah when i did a search for photos of the cardinal train it showed as the pacific parlour being in the photos and superliner cars and these were in the latest paint scheme's and the photos were dated for 2003 and some even for 2004 and the last time i was on the cardinal was back in 2004 but i was on it before then like in the summer of 2003.

also the cardinal has been running on-time lately but the last two times i took that train it always ran late like almost 4 hours but now its been either 20 minutes early or about 1 hour and 3 minutes late so it looks like thing are improving but just at a slow pace

 

[AlanB]

yeah when i did a search for photos of the cardinal train it showed as the pacific parlour being in the photos and superliner cars and these were in the latest paint scheme's and the photos were dated for 2003 and some even for 2004 and the last time i was on the cardinal was back in 2004 but i was on it before then like in the summer of 2003.

If you saw a PPC on the Cardinal, then it most likely was being towed from Chicago to Beech Grove, Amtrak's heavy repair shops near Indianapolis. The Cardinal is often used to get cars to/from those shops. But the PPC has never run in revenue service on the Cardinal.