when the lights go out

[Dutchrailnut]

Note that even without changing the voltage it is taking MNRR over 15 years to complete the conversion of their section.

So MNRR will have constant tension cat from end-to-end in their domain of the NEC? Will Amtrak be able to capitalize on that improvement for faster speed or will other upgrades need to occur first? Granted I am sure the speed increases wouldn't be huge, but shave a minute here, a minute there and it all adds up.

No plans to upgrade speed, the Catenay is only a minor problem, the main speed issue is curves and massive speed restrictions like portchester curve and all bridges.

Even if track speed over all were to be upgraded from 70 to 100 a train could only gain 6 minutes from CP216 to New Haven after all speed resitcions are taken at set speeds.

To raise speed on the bridges the bridges need replacement, since bridges like Walk are located in curve even a new bridge would be 45 mph.

also by Raising speeds the signal blocks need to be lenghtened (to max braking distance for new speed) thus decreasing the amount of trains MNCR could run.

Yes MNCR is studying the upgrade to ACSES cab signaling but untill all M2/4/6 are retired they can not implement such a upgrade, yes the M-8 will have ACSES.

 

[battalion51]

Dutch you would probably know this. Does ACSES meet the government standards required by the PTC laws? Does the standard cab signaling used by MNRR and CSX meet the standards? Or will there have to be upgrades?

 

[jis]

Dutch you would probably know this. Does ACSES meet the government standards required by the PTC laws? Does the standard cab signaling used by MNRR and CSX meet the standards? Or will there have to be upgrades?

Purely from memory I believe ACSES Phases II and III do and neither MNRR nor CSX does. I will have to dig out the papers on ACSES to check exactly which feature is part of which phase in ACSES.

The critical test is whether the system allows a signal at danger to be passed at low speed without explicit permission from the automatic system or not. I believe all classical ATS systems allow passage below 20mph or thereabouts and hence do not meet PTC requirements.

Naturally, since this is all from memory I am happy to be corrected while I check real sources to verify.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Dutch you would probably know this. Does ACSES meet the government standards required by the PTC laws? Does the standard cab signaling used by MNRR and CSX meet the standards? Or will there have to be upgrades?

Purely from memory I believe ACSES Phases II and III do and neither MNRR nor CSX does. I will have to dig out the papers on ACSES to check exactly which feature is part of which phase in ACSES.

The critical test is whether the system allows a signal at danger to be passed at low speed without explicit permission from the automatic system or not. I believe all classical ATS systems allow passage below 20mph or thereabouts and hence do not meet PTC requirements.

Naturally, since this is all from memory I am happy to be corrected while I check real sources to verify.

Does that mean that if there is a signal fault, the train has to sit and wait for it to be repaired?

 

[battalion51]

Under present operating rules it is possible to operate in Cab Signal territory with the Cab Signals cut out. I forget the particulars, but some caveats include having to get permission from the dispatcher, and then you can operate at a certain speed (I want to say 60) if you get a clear to next interlocking light, otherwise you have to operate at restricted speed. I don't have the rule books with me in Maryland, but that's the essence of it.

 

[jis]

Does that mean that if there is a signal fault, the train has to sit and wait for it to be repaired?

No. The system and dispatcher is able to communicate with the train's control system to allow it to do certain things to work around signal faults - sort of like an electronic Form D. That is where Phase III comes in which adds the radio communication based stuff as an overlay over the transponders enable this. The transponder based stuff mainly provides speed enforcement (at finer granularity than is possible with signals), distance to next signal info to the control system on the train and enforces absolute stop at stop signals.

Of course pre-Phase III regular (somewhat modified procedure) Form-Ds can be used along the line that Battalion describes.

 

[Dutchrailnut]

Under present operating rules it is possible to operate in Cab Signal territory with the Cab Signals cut out. I forget the particulars, but some caveats include having to get permission from the dispatcher, and then you can operate at a certain speed (I want to say 60) if you get a clear to next interlocking light, otherwise you have to operate at restricted speed. I don't have the rule books with me in Maryland, but that's the essence of it.

Under present operating rules, you can only operate a train where cab signal/atc has failed enroute, a train without cab signal/atc can not operate on NEC or any of cab signal equiped feeder lines.

The train operating with failed cab signal has to be govered by a absolute block type signal like a C board and can not operate at speeds higher than stated in operating manual.

On MNCR that would be 59 mph max prepared to stop at each interlocking.

 

[Dutchrailnut]

Dutch you would probably know this. Does ACSES meet the government standards required by the PTC laws? Does the standard cab signaling used by MNRR and CSX meet the standards? Or will there have to be upgrades?

Yes ACSES is a PTC system as per Government requirement, the current MNCR system is not, but will probably be grandfathered.

Same with NJT's system, I don't believe they ever got their immitation ACSES to work.

So new or rebuild systems need a upgrade if being put to use in or after 2015.

It looks as Danbury branch signal system will need a form of ACSES to comply

 

[battalion51]

Under present operating rules it is possible to operate in Cab Signal territory with the Cab Signals cut out. I forget the particulars, but some caveats include having to get permission from the dispatcher, and then you can operate at a certain speed (I want to say 60) if you get a clear to next interlocking light, otherwise you have to operate at restricted speed. I don't have the rule books with me in Maryland, but that's the essence of it.

Under present operating rules, you can only operate a train where cab signal/atc has failed enroute, a train without cab signal/atc can not operate on NEC or any of cab signal equiped feeder lines.

The train operating with failed cab signal has to be govered by a absolute block type signal like a C board and can not operate at speeds higher than stated in operating manual.

On MNCR that would be 59 mph max prepared to stop at each interlocking.

You're right. Reading that I remember that it's a caveat that I just didn't recall off the top of my head. And correct me if I'm wrong but don't you have to have two non-conforming aspects in a row before you can declare it a failure? And it seems like it'd be pretty hard for there to be too many non-conforming aspects on the Mets considering y'all have all of two absolute signals (stop and proceed cab) :lol: .

 

[Dutchrailnut]

Under present operating rules it is possible to operate in Cab Signal territory with the Cab Signals cut out. I forget the particulars, but some caveats include having to get permission from the dispatcher, and then you can operate at a certain speed (I want to say 60) if you get a clear to next interlocking light, otherwise you have to operate at restricted speed. I don't have the rule books with me in Maryland, but that's the essence of it.

Under present operating rules, you can only operate a train where cab signal/atc has failed enroute, a train without cab signal/atc can not operate on NEC or any of cab signal equiped feeder lines.

The train operating with failed cab signal has to be govered by a absolute block type signal like a C board and can not operate at speeds higher than stated in operating manual.

On MNCR that would be 59 mph max prepared to stop at each interlocking.

You're right. Reading that I remember that it's a caveat that I just didn't recall off the top of my head. And correct me if I'm wrong but don't you have to have two non-conforming aspects in a row before you can declare it a failure? And it seems like it'd be pretty hard for there to be too many non-conforming aspects on the Mets considering y'all have all of two absolute signals (stop and proceed cab) :lol: .

Cabsignal/atc failure can be may things including , continous alarm/ failure of alarm, aspect dark, or multi aspects lit, non-conformity between wayside and onboard signals, speed failures, overspeed, flipping etc etc.

 

[Guest_Bill_*]

Probably a very simple answer to this question...but I'm sure others who have ridden the NEC might have noticed the head end power (lights/ac) might go out in the coach cars for 10, 20, or 30 secs on rare occasions. I've experienced this situation on both the Acelas & the NE Regionals. Does this mean there is a dead spot in the electrical catenary wires? If the train were moving very slowly and it hit one of these "dead spots" - could it cause the locomotive to lose power and thus effectively make the train stranded on the tracks? Would Amtrak then need to tow it to a section of electrified wire?

At sub stations and swithing stations there are phase brakes to seperate two sources of comercial power. phase breaks contain dead sections which are marked by a sighn posted on a cat pole so that the engineer knows the location. In the dead section the wires are configured so that the pan is not in contact with live catenary for about 40 or 50 feet or so. This is so the two scouces of comercial power don't meet and go kaboom. Very very rarely does this incapacitate a train. If a train is sitting "dead in tthe water" in a dead section it is probably because the engineer is an dope. Another reason for a train losing cat power other than eqiptment failure would be if there was a tripping on the circuit. The system has an automatic reclose feature so if something does come in contact with the wire it will reclose the circuit twice this blasting the foreigne object (tree, kite string, human) 3 times with 25k and hopefully burning it off the wire. If that doesn't work they sectionalize the problem and hopefuly the train is clear of the problem section. If it is they send a rescue engine to pull the train out and a couple linemen (me) to find the problem and get the juice a flowing again thus making said choo choo infuriatingly late for its passengers. Anywho, in the northeast corridor in ri and ma there are dead sections in richmond, warwick, norton, and sharon. I hope this info was helpful, trust me, I do this crap for a living.

 

[acelafan]

Probably a very simple answer to this question...but I'm sure others who have ridden the NEC might have noticed the head end power (lights/ac) might go out in the coach cars for 10, 20, or 30 secs on rare occasions. I've experienced this situation on both the Acelas & the NE Regionals. Does this mean there is a dead spot in the electrical catenary wires? If the train were moving very slowly and it hit one of these "dead spots" - could it cause the locomotive to lose power and thus effectively make the train stranded on the tracks? Would Amtrak then need to tow it to a section of electrified wire?

At sub stations and swithing stations there are phase brakes to seperate two sources of comercial power. phase breaks contain dead sections which are marked by a sighn posted on a cat pole so that the engineer knows the location. In the dead section the wires are configured so that the pan is not in contact with live catenary for about 40 or 50 feet or so. This is so the two scouces of comercial power don't meet and go kaboom. Very very rarely does this incapacitate a train. If a train is sitting "dead in tthe water" in a dead section it is probably because the engineer is an dope. Another reason for a train losing cat power other than eqiptment failure would be if there was a tripping on the circuit. The system has an automatic reclose feature so if something does come in contact with the wire it will reclose the circuit twice this blasting the foreigne object (tree, kite string, human) 3 times with 25k and hopefully burning it off the wire. If that doesn't work they sectionalize the problem and hopefuly the train is clear of the problem section. If it is they send a rescue engine to pull the train out and a couple linemen (me) to find the problem and get the juice a flowing again thus making said choo choo infuriatingly late for its passengers. Anywho, in the northeast corridor in ri and ma there are dead sections in richmond, warwick, norton, and sharon. I hope this info was helpful, trust me, I do this crap for a living.

Thank you for your first hand insight and knowledge. Sounds like an interesting job -- of course it's no fun in the snow and cold! About 20 years ago I was on a MNRR train on the Hudson line and the train hit some debris on the track from someone throwing stuff over a bridge. Our train became disabled with the emergency brakes stuck on. They tried to tow us to the next station by another loco but that one reportedly had its engine burned out dragging a train with locked wheels after about 5 minutes. So then we were transferred to a rescue train right there on the tracks. I don't really know the whole story since I was only about 14 at the time. Anyways, ever since then I've been interested in trains (especially electric ones) and the NEC in general. Thankfully I've experienced no other incidents like that!

 

[Guest_bill_*]

Probably a very simple answer to this question...but I'm sure others who have ridden the NEC might have noticed the head end power (lights/ac) might go out in the coach cars for 10, 20, or 30 secs on rare occasions. I've experienced this situation on both the Acelas & the NE Regionals. Does this mean there is a dead spot in the electrical catenary wires? If the train were moving very slowly and it hit one of these "dead spots" - could it cause the locomotive to lose power and thus effectively make the train stranded on the tracks? Would Amtrak then need to tow it to a section of electrified wire?

At sub stations and swithing stations there are phase brakes to seperate two sources of comercial power. phase breaks contain dead sections which are marked by a sighn posted on a cat pole so that the engineer knows the location. In the dead section the wires are configured so that the pan is not in contact with live catenary for about 40 or 50 feet or so. This is so the two scouces of comercial power don't meet and go kaboom. Very very rarely does this incapacitate a train. If a train is sitting "dead in tthe water" in a dead section it is probably because the engineer is an dope. Another reason for a train losing cat power other than eqiptment failure would be if there was a tripping on the circuit. The system has an automatic reclose feature so if something does come in contact with the wire it will reclose the circuit twice this blasting the foreigne object (tree, kite string, human) 3 times with 25k and hopefully burning it off the wire. If that doesn't work they sectionalize the problem and hopefuly the train is clear of the problem section. If it is they send a rescue engine to pull the train out and a couple linemen (me) to find the problem and get the juice a flowing again thus making said choo choo infuriatingly late for its passengers. Anywho, in the northeast corridor in ri and ma there are dead sections in richmond, warwick, norton, and sharon. I hope this info was helpful, trust me, I do this crap for a living.

Thank you for your first hand insight and knowledge. Sounds like an interesting job -- of course it's no fun in the snow and cold! About 20 years ago I was on a MNRR train on the Hudson line and the train hit some debris on the track from someone throwing stuff over a bridge. Our train became disabled with the emergency brakes stuck on. They tried to tow us to the next station by another loco but that one reportedly had its engine burned out dragging a train with locked wheels after about 5 minutes. So then we were transferred to a rescue train right there on the tracks. I don't really know the whole story since I was only about 14 at the time. Anyways, ever since then I've been interested in trains (especially electric ones) and the NEC in general. Thankfully I've experienced no other incidents like that!

My job most of the time isn't that interesting. Right now all my time is spent stringing up wire so they can run electrics up track 3 between readville and boston, that's a big project. Other than that my job basicly concists of making sure people don't electrocute themselves while working around our wires in the summer, spring, and fall. Then knocking icicles off of bridges in the winter so they don't explode (I have had that happen right over my head on a couple of occasions, its not fun) or if a pan inverts and rips down the wire, we go out and fix it. All in all its a good job but the hours suck seeing as its all overnights and its dangerous. But hey, what fun is life without a little element of danger right? Any questions about the overhead lines, feel free to ask.

 

[jis]

My job most of the time isn't that interesting. Right now all my time is spent stringing up wire so they can run electrics up track 3 between readville and boston, that's a big project.

Thanks for that piece of info. I had been wondering if work had started on that piece of unfinished project. Last time I passed by there it seemed that something was happening. Glad to learn that it is finally happening