What does a train do in heavy snow?

[PRR 60]

I'd much rather be on a train getting to my destination - maybe a little late - than stuck at the airport for the next flight out with seats available! And sleeping at the airport!

This is precisely the reason we will always, always, always use Amtrak for Christmas travels. I hear horror stories about flights getting delayed/canceled every single year.

Then again there are more primary options (such as routes and carriers) and secondary resources (such as hotels for sleeping and car rentals for personal travel) at most airports than there are at most train stations. It's true that airport areas can still run out rooms and cars and such, but I'm not sure that's quite as bad as never having any of that in the first place.

If an airport is shut down, is is very likely that all flights on all carriers will be cancelled also!

And airlines no longer pay (or give vouchers) for hotels! And if it is snowing so bad that an airport is shut down, would you really want to rent a car and drive on the snowy highways to your destination?

I remember a few years back when MKA was shut down by heavy snow. The smart people who were going to STL got there that day!

How?

They didn't drive - they took Amtrak, and arrived on time!

And just because it's sunny an 80º in SAS and LAX, that doesn't mean the flight could not be cancelled due to snow! That flight may be arriving from JFK, and JFK is shut down due to snow!

Airports are rarely "shut down" by snow, as defined as no runways open for arrivals or departures. It is usually the airlines that pre-emptively cancel flights due to snow to avoid getting equipment stuck there. During major snow storms, the FAA ATC website will often show airports open with minimal delays, when the reality is that the absence of delays is due to no flights using the airport. While airlines do not usually offer vouchers for weather-related delays, airlines still give vouchers for delays due to mechanical, crew availability, or other issues within their control.

My problem with using Amtrak long distance trains in winter is that the train reliability is affected by the weather all along the route. A blizzard in the Sierras or a rockslide in the Rockies can cripple the Zephyr, but will have no impact on a flight from San Francisco to Chicago. If the point of the travel is riding the train, and you build your itinerary with lots of cushion and alternate plans, then winter train rides can be fun. However, if I really have to get somewhere and I only need transportation, then I avoid Amtrak LD's in winter.

Two years ago my wife and I were heading from Philadelphia to San Francisco. The day we were leaving a major blizzard was moving up the east coast. We got out less than two hours before the storm hit (I was sweating bullets all day). When we got to SFO, the terminal was a zoo. All the red-eye's heading for the east coast were cancelled. Boy, were we lucky, but at least once we got off the ground, were in the clear. We flew over the storm while having dinner. Even if Amtrak had been a viable transportation option for PHL-SFO, it would not have mattered. The storm was in the path of the westbound trains and Amtrak had already cancelled everything heading that way.

[smartA**]

I don't recall Marianske Lazne Airport (MKA) in the Czech Republic ever being shut down by snow, and if it was, I'm not sure how Amtrak could help. Milwaukee, WI, USA (MKE): maybe. MKA: I not sure.

[/smartA**] :lol:

 

[Anderson]

I'd much rather be on a train getting to my destination - maybe a little late - than stuck at the airport for the next flight out with seats available! And sleeping at the airport!

This is precisely the reason we will always, always, always use Amtrak for Christmas travels. I hear horror stories about flights getting delayed/canceled every single year.

Then again there are more primary options (such as routes and carriers) and secondary resources (such as hotels for sleeping and car rentals for personal travel) at most airports than there are at most train stations. It's true that airport areas can still run out rooms and cars and such, but I'm not sure that's quite as bad as never having any of that in the first place.

True, but most "layover cities" (CHI, WAS, NYP, LAX) have stations in downtown amidst piles of business hotels.

As to business travel on Amtrak...I'd happily do so in the East, but once you get into those Western run-from-CA/WA/OR trains, it's probably too chancy.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

If an airport is shut down, is is very likely that all flights on all carriers will be cancelled also!

I have hundreds of individual flights under my belt and yet I can count the number of times I been "stranded" on one hand. Even in those cases there were other carriers, other routes, and other airports that could still get me where I was going.

And airlines no longer pay (or give vouchers) for hotels!

A couple years ago I received a hotel voucher three meal vouchers and a $600 flight voucher for being delayed out of SFO on UA when it was the airline's own issue that caused it. When it's the not the airline's problem and no other in-network options are available I can either purchase another ticket on another carrier or travel to another airport or get a room or rent a car or what have you. These options are likely to be expensive but they do exist.

These days San Antonio's Amtrak station does have hotel rooms and taxis nearby, but that's about it. There are no other trains or other carriers with alternative routes that can get me to wherever I'm going. Amtrak is the only game in town for passenger rail. They only have between one and three trains a day, none of which would work as a practical substitute for either of the others. In at least two directions there are only three trains a week, so your options are even more limited. When was the last time you saw a million-plus sized city with a single airport that had no more than three flights a day? Our airport has hundreds of flights a day for Pete's sake.

And if it is snowing so bad that an airport is shut down, would you really want to rent a car and drive on the snowy highways to your destination?

Where I live we only get super snowy highways maybe once a decade and our airport probably hasn't closed due to heavy snow since the 1980's.

I remember a few years back when MKA was shut down by heavy snow. The smart people who were going to STL got there that day! How? They didn't drive - they took Amtrak, and arrived on time!

I've actually had pretty good luck with Amtrak myself, but I almost never use them when I (or anyone traveling with me) must be at a specific place at a specific time because it's quite obvious that Amtrak simply cannot provide that level of service. Airlines sometimes fail at this as well, but even when they do I'm likely to only be off by a few hours instead of a few days as may be the case with a cancelled train. There are many reasons to travel by rail, but having lots of alternative routing options and local resources available to you isn't one of them. Well, maybe in CHI or LAX or WDC it is, but for most of us it's not. I'm not trying to say everyone should fly or that flying is universally better than rail, I'm just saying we shouldn't give Amtrak credit for service levels it can't actually live up to. That's all. ^_^

 

[the_traveler]

[smartA**]

I don't recall Marianske Lazne Airport (MKA) in the Czech Republic ever being shut down by snow, and if it was, I'm not sure how Amtrak could help. Milwaukee, WI, USA (MKE): maybe. MKA: I not sure.

[/smartA**] :lol:

OK, my bad!

I used the Amtrak code for the airport, not the FAA code for the airport (which just happens to be the same as the Amtrak station downtown)!

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Hope you don't mind me resurrecting this thread but I thought this video was worth the trouble.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-Yew1UQuQE

I must admit I really find this whole event rather interesting.

These Alco PA's were some of the most impressive and powerful looking locomotives I'd ever seen back when I was a child.

It didn't matter that I'd only seen them in photos and made into models, the look was still impressive nonetheless.

Seeing these locomotives conquered by snow storms in the Sierras makes for a rather interesting story in my view.

If I were wealthy beyond reason I would consider fully restoring or even recreating some of these locomotives and running them through the Sierras on sightseeing tours.

 

[fillyjonk]

IMHO, ice is a greater problem. Two of the most difficult Amtrak trips I took involved ice: Christmas 2000, right after the East Texas/Arkansas ice storm. We were 12 hours late. (Partly because a freight had derailed ahead of us and it was a Sunday, and apparently it was hard to get a crew out to clean it up. Then our train's crew "timed out" at an "odd" place (not near a station) and we had to sit and wait on a new crew to arrive).

January 2010 - the train I was in (TE 21) hit a patch of ice in STL, the engines and the front sleeper (which I was in) derailed. Not badly; no one was hurt. But they pulled that equipment and sent all of us sleeper pax to coach for the rest of the trip. And we were 9 hours late getting in to my destination...

I also don't like flooding; had an 18 hour bustitution (unexpected) because of flooding one spring. I don't recommend emergency bustitutions. If I were doing it again, I'd rent a car and drive it myself.

 

[jis]

Airports are rarely "shut down" by snow, as defined as no runways open for arrivals or departures. It is usually the airlines that pre-emptively cancel flights due to snow to avoid getting equipment stuck there. During major snow storms, the FAA ATC website will often show airports open with minimal delays, when the reality is that the absence of delays is due to no flights using the airport.

Actually we have the famous passenger bill of rights to thank for this pre-emptive cancellation thing too. Before that 3 hour limit law airlines used to try a little harder to maintain service. But now the risk is too high. So they just pack up and sit it out as soon as they hear of an adverse weather report.

It is sort of like Amtrak having to deal with a law that says you will be fined hundreds of dollars per passenger if your train gets stuck for more than 3 hours away from a station. The rational thing to do would be to discontinue service when there is s slight chance that a train will get stuck for more than 3 hours. Coming to think of it, to some extent Amtrak already does that with the help of the host railroads.

While airlines do not usually offer vouchers for weather-related delays, airlines still give vouchers for delays due to mechanical, crew availability, or other issues within their control.

They do indeed!

[smartA**]

I don't recall Marianske Lazne Airport (MKA) in the Czech Republic ever being shut down by snow, and if it was, I'm not sure how Amtrak could help. Milwaukee, WI, USA (MKE): maybe. MKA: I not sure.

[/smartA**] :lol:

OK, my bad!

I used the Amtrak code for the airport, not the FAA code for the airport (which just happens to be the same as the Amtrak station downtown)!

IATA code. FAA is not in the airport or airline code business.

IATA has 3 letter codes for airports and even some train stations for which airlines can issue tickets on IATA standard compliant ticket system (e.g. JFK, EWR), and 2 letter codes for airlines and train operators(e.g. UA for United, 2V for Amtrak). ICAO on the other hand has 4 letter codes for airports (e.g. KJFK, KEWR).

 

[George Harris]

ICAO on the other hand has 4 letter codes for airports (e.g. KJFK, KEWR).

For which the default thought in my brain is that these that begin with K must be radio or TV stations in the western US. :lol:

Sometimes you can get so really long delays on international flights. During my periods of work in East Asia I had several nights courtesy of the airline, usually Northwest. My top one of those was two nights in hotels on a trip from Memphis to Taipei, one night in Seattle and the other in Tokyo.