What do you say to overly-enthusiastic rail advocates?

[Matthew H Fish]

I was almost going to call this thread "How to do rail anti-advocacy"?
Of course, I am a big rail advocate, both for Amtrak, other long distance rail, and local and commuter rail. But a lot of my transit experience has been in areas that can't support rail.
And I sometimes have discussions with overly-enthusiastic rail fans who will respond "That area would be perfect for a commuter rail line!", and often the area in question is a town of a few thousand people 20 or 30 miles from a mid-sized city that has a half dozen shuttle bus trips a day.
Also, sometimes there are larger cities that are served by other means of transit and that have geographical barriers to passenger rail (this has come up, for example, on discussions of why the Coast Starlight alignment doesn't go through Yreka/Medford/Grants Pass/Roseburg).
And then there are gigantic urban transit projects that, while they would clear up some problems, would also cost a lot of money--and cause some very unpopular disruption. (Another Oregon example: I know some transit advocates that casually toss off the idea of building a tunnel from Lloyd Center to Goose Hollow--a project that would probably take a decade and several billion dollars).
So when you are in these type of discussions, what type of things do you say to explain that while its a nice idea on paper, rail can be very expensive and time consuming, and some transit needs are better served by other modes?

 

[danasgoodstuff]

Every rail pipe dream that fails prevents other more realistic projects from getting done. Only said with more detail and more politely. And honestly, I don't have a lot of experience in this department.

 

[dlagrua]

Ideals and reality are often very far apart. As an enthusiastic passenger rail enthusiast myself, all we can do to move things forward is to write our representatives and support the RPA and other associations like All Aboard Ohio that lobby for more rail routes.

 

[lordsigma]

It really comes down to this - there’s a big difference between being a serious passenger rail advocate and being a railfan or foamer. The former requires some patience, logic, and knowledge about the best battles to fight and what projects can work. Along with a willingness to act and support the cause whether through time or treasure beyond just talk and it goes beyond just the enthusiasm for trains or a nostalgia for days gone by that comes with being a foamer. All rail advocates are foamers to one degree or another but not all foamers are true rail advocates. Compared to most here I’m probably a relative newbie but my first piece of advice would be that sometimes you have to have patience and perseverance. Many of the long time rail advocates waited a long time to get the kind of capital infusion that came with the IIJA and even that is just a down payment. There’s a lot more work ahead.

 

[CraigInNC]

It really comes down to this - there’s a big difference between being a serious passenger rail advocate and being a railfan or foamer. The former requires some patience, logic, and knowledge about the best battles to fight and what projects can work. Along with a willingness to act and support the cause whether through time or treasure beyond just talk and it goes beyond just the enthusiasm for trains or a nostalgia for days gone by that comes with being a foamer. All rail advocates are foamers to one degree or another but not all foamers are true rail advocates. Compared to most here I’m probably a relative newbie but my first piece of advice would be that sometimes you have to have patience and perseverance. Many of the long time rail advocates waited a long time to get the kind of capital infusion that came with the IIJA and even that is just a down payment. There’s a lot more work ahead.

A point lost by most of the average public now on social media and it's not confined to infrastructure. It is every issue going. A good politician knows that legislation is the art of possible not a winner-take-all all war. Getting something done doesn't require someone to lose in every situation. I look at railfans and foamers more as hobbyists who are really into the lifestyle. Whenever I talk trains with an elected or a business person who is involved in decision making it tends to be more pragmatic with a little dose of wishful thinking thrown in.

 

[Matthew H Fish]

I found this relevant Calvin and Hobbes:

 

[Matthew H Fish]

I guess a lot of it has to do with my own philosophy of infrastructure, which I know not everyone shares.
I am more interested in concrete and incremental progress.
For example, I think that Amtrak would attract more customers with some very simple repairs and upgrades (fixing drinking fountains and bathrooms, adding free wifi, working with local transit systems to increase connections, adding more connecting shuttles), which sounds unspectacular, especially when someone suggests a 300 km/h bullet train.
So sometimes I feel like it is a competition between my reality and someone else's fantasy, and for some reason, I always lose those competitions!

 

[bbappel]

I think "overenthusiasm" is in the mind of the beholder. For some, just being on this chat site is overenthusiastic. <big grin>

 

[jis]

I always attempt to use any opportunity presented by over-enthusiasm to try to channel the energy towards educating them about the ground realities and the available technologies now and in the near future, so that they can propose things that are achievable rather than random pie in the sky. Or at least be able to differentiate between the two even if one wishes to indulge in flights of fantasy. Some take the opportunity to learn. Others think that they know better and carry on regardless. Hey it is a free country

 

[Steve4031]

I always attempt to use any opportunity presented by over-enthusiasm to try to channel the energy towards educating them about the ground realities and the available technologies now and in the near future, so that they can propose things that are achievable rather than random pie in the sky. Or at least be able to differentiate between the two even if one wishes to indulge in flights of fantasy. Some take the opportunity to learn. Others think that they know better and carry on regardless. Hey it is a free country

I personally have learned quite a bit from Jishnu and others on this forum over the years. At first, I had my own pet projects and would start of threads with "Amtrak should . . ." and then (often) Jishnu or someone else would explain the realities of the situation and I would learn something and adjust my thinking.

 

[Matthew H Fish]

Or at least be able to differentiate between the two even if one wishes to indulge in flights of fantasy. Some take the opportunity to learn. Others think that they know better and carry on regardless. Hey it is a free country

And sometimes we need the dreamers and people who will pursue "unrealistic" plans.
I guess another thing for me is that I can work on both planes---like, I have lots of aspirational plans, things I think should eventually happen, I just keep them in a separate mental cabinet than the plans I think can be done immediately.

 

[danasgoodstuff]

'Would you care to make a donation?'

 

[cirdan]

On the one hand we have foamers who demand pie in the sky solutions. But on the other we have projects that actually get built that are maybe somewhat misguided and which consequently underperform and give detractors ammunition against further such projects. I feel there is sometimes some reluctance among campaigners to speak out against bad ideas, because they think any rail project is better than none at all.

 

[jis]

On the one hand we have foamers who demand pie in the sky solutions. But on the other we have projects that actually get built that are maybe somewhat misguided and which consequently underperform and give detractors ammunition against further such projects. I feel there is sometimes some reluctance among campaigners to speak out against bad ideas, because they think any rail project is better than none at all.

Hey, some of us actively worked towards killing the proposed ARC Hudson Tunnel which did not connect to Penn Station and went instead to a dead end station by the Macy's basement, which was a really bad idea for how to spend $10 Billion. We were duly excoriated by a whole lot of rail enthusiasts, even more so when we succeeded. But all that led to the current proposal that is being built.

 

[Matthew H Fish]

On the one hand we have foamers who demand pie in the sky solutions. But on the other we have projects that actually get built that are maybe somewhat misguided and which consequently underperform and give detractors ammunition against further such projects.

One of the elephants in the room is that rail projects often have to carry social and political problems outside of their technical costs and benefits. There are a lot of people who will scream "boondoggle" at any rail project. There are also a lot of people who dislike trains or transit because they associate it with urban areas and therefore crime. Or, they just don't think rail or transit fit in with the lifestyle they had when they "moved to the country" ("the country" being a suburb of 50,000 people that is now having regular traffic jams, but I digress).
So one problem with these argument is that sometimes people are technically right. Sometimes a community would be better served by a rail project than by throwing money into more highway expansion. But the question isn't whether they can convince me of that--the question is whether they can convince the people in that community.
So sometimes the problem is that people have a fair, rational idea---but don't understand why people won't support it.

 

[Amtrak25]

There are currently 3 foamers posing as advocates (Daily News Editorial Board has one of them as a blind author) still pushing for a nearly impossible "link" to an off-limits GCT, with the same casualness as building a passing siding in the boonies, plus a Chelsea Manhattan NIMBY outfit of several people posing as thru-running planner fanatics - all opposed to the Gateway project (a project which I think is ingenious), particularly Penn Station South. They have no concept of how MN or LIRR operate, no concept of physical asset ownership and rights, who want one tunnel built, not two, are opposed to replacing the Portal Bridge, are opposed to the rebuilding of Perth Amboy station, haven't said a word, yet, about Sawtooth Bridge, but seem resigned to preserving as many 110 year old crumbling Pennsy relics as possible.