VIA Jasper, Prince George and Prince Rupert Service

[Willbridge]

On the agreed-upon Sunday afternoon, Mayor Don Abel arrived in style. My 7-year old son was highly impressed. He had heard about mayors (from "Mr. Rogers") and the well-chromed, maroon Lincoln out front fit his idea of how a mayor should be driven about town. It turned out that the mayor's long-time friend in Edmonton was a car collector!

Once we and the neighbors had admired the car, we got down to business with papers spread on the kitchen table. For two years before the November 1981 Pepin cutbacks, Melville and other on-line cities had followed a Canadian Transport Commission study of transcontinental service. All of the alternatives west of Winnipeg had service on both the CN and CP main lines to Vancouver. The Pepin cutbacks had come out of the blue. I learned from him that municipalities were being ignored just as thoroughly as advocacy groups.

In situations like this there are always a lot of things that fit the "don't know what you don't know" category. Mayor Abel knew MP Lloyd Axworthy, who not only was one of the two governing party members from west of the Great Lakes, but also had grown up in a town near Melville. I did not know that when I handed Abel a copy of the "counterfeit" VIA Panorama schedule.

The effort continued. It was fascinating to me to see how uninterested the government was, perhaps out of fear of having been wrong. I don't have files of the T-2000 effort, but accidentally saved this example of courteous public comment that received nothing more than acknowledgement.

George Lambert was a retired Alberta school inspector and knew people in the small towns along the line. He knew how to write to government officials. The Saskatchewan group was also well-connected and well-spoken. The British Columbia group was enthusiastic, but as often is the case for BC, concerned also with provincial issues. And, they had one of the few route segments where there really was duplication by the two transcontinental lines (the other being in Manitoba), so the loss of service was harder to explain.

Through-out 1982 the patched-up network continued to serve customers who were trying to ride trains. Some ended up on the floor in Calgary. "Thank you, Canada."



Change was coming. In August 1983, Jean Luc Pepin was quietly shoved into a parliamentary corner and MP Lloyd Axworthy was named Minister of Transport. Axworthy asked for a review of the 1981 changes and pledged to "reestablish the credibility" of VIA Rail as a national service.


Next = Rumours fly, rail passengers try...

With Lloyd Axworthy in charge of the MOT there were reviews of the 1981 service plan. Axworthy was an urban planner before entering parliament, so he probably understood that not having had a public input process meant that there had been no check for flaws. Not to mention outraging elements of the public, whether they rode trains or just might want to someday. And the uproar was not stopping. The mayor of Melville carried on.










Earlier in 1983, the CN was trying to tear down stations on the former Super Continental route in BC. As reflected in the clipping above, actions like that were happening across the country, literally from Atlantic to Pacific.

By spring 1983 the rumour was that a Super Continental through train would run Winnipeg-Edmonton, connecting with the Skeena at Edmonton and with the Canadian at Winnipeg.

By March 1984, as the last Rail Canada item above indicates, the rumour in VIA circles was that the "new" train would be named the Panorama. I was surprised, but had other things on my mind, so I never followed up to find out how that happened.

It seems that my counterfeit VIA Rail timetable showing a through Winnipeg-Prince Rupert train named Panorama was Xeroxed and was circulated in Ottawa and Montreal - not to mention Melville. As it looked like a VIA product and there was no cover sheet, it is likely that people thought it was an internal document.

Meanwhile, VIA Rail continued with the makeshift routing through South Edmonton.


Next = an attempt at reorganizing VIA.

 

[jiml]

With Lloyd Axworthy in charge of the MOT there were reviews of the 1981 service plan. Axworthy was an urban planner before entering parliament, so he probably understood that not having had a public input process meant that there had been no check for flaws. Not to mention outraging elements of the public, whether they rode trains or just might want to someday. And the uproar was not stopping. The mayor of Melville carried on.

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View attachment 35287

Earlier in 1983, the CN was trying to tear down stations on the former Super Continental route in BC. As reflected in the clipping above, actions like that were happening across the country, literally from Atlantic to Pacific.

By spring 1983 the rumour was that a Super Continental through train would run Winnipeg-Edmonton, connecting with the Skeena at Edmonton and with the Canadian at Winnipeg.

By March 1984, as the last Rail Canada item above indicates, the rumour in VIA circles was that the "new" train would be named the Panorama. I was surprised, but had other things on my mind, so I never followed up to find out how that happened.

It seems that my counterfeit VIA Rail timetable showing a through Winnipeg-Prince Rupert train named Panorama was Xeroxed and was circulated in Ottawa and Montreal - not to mention Melville. As it looked like a VIA product and there was no cover sheet, it is likely that people thought it was an internal document.

Meanwhile, VIA Rail continued with the makeshift routing through South Edmonton.
View attachment 35288

Next = an attempt at reorganizing VIA.

Wow, that was a trip down memory lane. The detail in that Rail Canada article covers not just the topic at-hand but so many of the often discussed former VIA routes. Thanks for keeping it and posting.

 

[Anderson]

VIA lacks the fleet, funding and mandate to do so. The hotel industry in Prince George would cry foul and rightly so…

I disagree that they lack the fleet. How many sleepers did they park in Thunder Bay, again?

 

[Urban Sky]

I disagree that they lack the fleet. How many sleepers did they park in Thunder Bay, again?

May I ask in which way unfinished Renaissance Sleeper shells rotting around at Thunder Bay (if they have haven’t been already scrapped by now) might be useful for the Skeena?

 

[Anderson]

May I ask in which way unfinished Renaissance Sleeper shells rotting around at Thunder Bay (if they have been already scrapped by now) might be useful for the Skeena?

They also parked a batch of Chateau/Manor sleepers there (the ones with the 8 roomettes on staggered levels) IIRC.

 

[Urban Sky]

They also parked a batch of Chateau/Manor sleepers there (the ones with the 8 roomettes on staggered levels) IIRC.

Below is a list of all HEP Manor/Chateau Sleepers in VIA’s fleet of which my Trackside Guide 2021 is aware of:


Anyways, making unserviceable cars serviceable requires capital funding - for cars which are almost 70 years old. Remind me again, what is the pressing problem we are trying to fix here…?

 

[Willbridge]

With Lloyd Axworthy in charge of the MOT there were reviews of the 1981 service plan. Axworthy was an urban planner before entering parliament, so he probably understood that not having had a public input process meant that there had been no check for flaws. Not to mention outraging elements of the public, whether they rode trains or just might want to someday. And the uproar was not stopping. The mayor of Melville carried on.

Earlier in 1983, the CN was trying to tear down stations on the former Super Continental route in BC. As reflected in the clipping above, actions like that were happening across the country, literally from Atlantic to Pacific.

By spring 1983 the rumour was that a Super Continental through train would run Winnipeg-Edmonton, connecting with the Skeena at Edmonton and with the Canadian at Winnipeg.

By March 1984, as the last Rail Canada item above indicates, the rumour in VIA circles was that the "new" train would be named the Panorama. I was surprised, but had other things on my mind, so I never followed up to find out how that happened.

It seems that my counterfeit VIA Rail timetable showing a through Winnipeg-Prince Rupert train named Panorama was Xeroxed and was circulated in Ottawa and Montreal - not to mention Melville. As it looked like a VIA product and there was no cover sheet, it is likely that people thought it was an internal document.

Meanwhile, VIA Rail continued with the makeshift routing through South Edmonton.
View attachment 35288

Next = an attempt at reorganizing VIA.

So, by early 1984 the transcon case, including the Skeena, involved implementation of the Panorama and at the same-time longer-range planning of a sequel to the Super Continental,

As observed above, there were uproars going on all over the country, including British Columbia (the E&N) and Alberta (the Other Corridor). This resulted in renewed efforts to establish VIA Rail as a legal corporate entity removed from the direct control of the Prime Minister's Office (PMO - for Americans, it plays the role of the Office of Management & Budget in that it just wants to cut things regardless of which party is in power or what campaigns have promised).

First, a look at the uproar.












This is just a sample of what was going on. Nick Vincent was Executive Director of T-2000 Canada and was busy in Ottawa.




And in the midst of all this...


Next: the Jasper meeting. (Out of chronological order to avoid making this more unwieldly than it already is.)

 

[Dayliner381]

With due respect to Mr. Willbridge, VIA Rail IS a legal corporate entity. It is not under the direct control of the Prime Minister's Office. It reports to the Minister of Transport through a Board of Directors.

The PMO is not the equivalent of the Office of the Management and Budget. I am not sure how helpful these analogies are, as a Parliamentary democracy operates fundamentally differently than the US division of powers. But to the the extent that they are, the equivalent of the OMB would be the Treasury Board, a committee of Cabinet supported by a secretariat of public servants. The Treasury Board is a control mechanism over line ministry spending. More specifically, the Treasury Board's function is to oversee the expenditure side of the budget, including acting as the employer's collective bargaining agent for the Public Service (of which Via employees are NOT part).

What is true is the following: Via Rail was created by an Order in Council, i.e. by the Cabinet of the government of the day--in US terminology by an Executive Order. It was incorporated as a Crown Corporation, with the Government of Canada as the sole shareholder. It is funded through ticket sales and annual appropriations (i.e. subsidies) from the federal government. These are detailed in the Main Estimates tabled with the budget, which is passed by Parliament each year.

Appropriations may increase over the course of the fiscal year through supplementary estimates, if the overall budget room allows. This in fact has happened regularly, in some cases triggering subsequent service cutbacks, for example in 1991 when Via Rail spending had been running well over budget. In other cases supplementary estimates have allowed Via Rail to proceed with specific capital expenditures. But overall, the federal government keeps Via on a tight leash.

There has never been separate Via Rail legislation passed by Parliament, nor has any subsequent government shown much inclination to do so. There have been attempts through private member's bills but, as is typical these initiatives in general, they have died on the order paper when Parliament has prorogued. (A new new Parliamentary session requires reintroduction of proposed legislation.)

The advocacy and railfan communities have long felt that separate legislation would strengthen Via's hand in negotiating with host railways, and with future governments. Perhaps so, but it is that is by no means certain. In the final analysis, passenger rail in Canada will survive to the extent that the public wants it. Corridor and remote social services are best positioned, transcontinental services not so much. One area where specific legislation might help would be cooperation with the provinces. There is no equivalent to a state supported trains that is operated by Via Rail.

Bear in mind that even with all of the cutbacks over the years, per capita usage and funding of intercity passenger rail remains higher in Canada than in the US.

 

[Dayliner381]

In the message above I meant to say 1981 not 1991. The first round of Via cutbacks followed a period during which Via Rail spending was over budget.

 

[Willbridge]

Thanks for the correction. As I had left Canada by 1991, I wondered about the reference to that year.

You're right about how things are supposed to be done. I'll try to do a better job of how things actually happened.

 

[Willbridge]

After the January meeting in Edmonton, a second public meeting was held in April in Jasper. Testimony made it clear that access to and from the east was not as interesting for tourism business as access to and from Vancouver. Also, of note were driving difficulties between Edmonton and Vancouver and intermediate points, compared to Prairie province driving.

On the way to Jasper.


George Lambert (President, T-2000 Alberta) and Nick Vincent (Executive Director of T-2000 Canada) participated.


Harold Murray of VIA Rail West reported on what VIA was doing. 

Public input was heard. Edmonton's Mayor Decore (on the right) and VIA's Harold Murray (in the center) participated in what would have preceded the 1981 changes had public comments been sought.



Protesters who were portrayed as "railfans" turned out to be business people who had invested in serving a tourism market that assumed rail passenger service.


Tri-weekly service did not mesh completely, so we carpooled from Edmonton, getting a taste of Rocky Mountain driving issues.


The next event was closer to home. The Skeena disappeared and was replaced by the Panorama, as reported in Rail Travel News. In the brief items below, discussion of legislation for VIA was floated.

 

[west point]

It appears to this Yankee that the only real support for VIA is from Quebec city to some miles west of Toronto by parliament. Is representation in Parliament based on population distribution? If so, is it a "we have mine here in the east to heck to you westerners?"

 

[MARC Rider]

It appears to this Yankee that the only real support for VIA is from Quebec city to some miles west of Toronto by parliament. Is representation in Parliament based on population distribution? If so, is it a "we have mine here in the east to heck to you westerners?"

I looked this up, 343 seats in the Commons, 122 from Ontario, 71 from Quebec, for a total of 193 seats from those 2 provinces. That's 56% of the total seats.

 

[jiml]

It appears to this Yankee that the only real support for VIA is from Quebec city to some miles west of Toronto by parliament. Is representation in Parliament based on population distribution? If so, is it a "we have mine here in the east to heck to you westerners?"

Simplified but essentially accurate. The west sort of gets screwed no matter which party is in power. The most frequent (and current) government has little support west of Ontario, so spends accordingly. The other party is all about cutting government spending, leaving VIA with the short end everywhere.

 

[Urban Sky]

Simplified but essentially accurate. The west sort of gets screwed no matter which party is in power. The most frequent (and current) government has little support west of Ontario, so spends accordingly. The other party is all about cutting government spending, leaving VIA with the short end everywhere.

Even though your narrative of the Liberals being pro-VIA and the Conservatives being anti-VIA generally holds up, there are some notable exceptions with the Pepin cuts (Liberals) in 1981, Martin (Liberals) axing the VIA Fast proposal in 2004 and Harper (Conservatives) investing some C$500 million into partially triple-tracking the Kingston Subdivision and upgrading the HEP fleet (including the creation of Prestige Class) through his Canada’s Economic Action Plan (2009)…

 

[jiml]

Even though your narrative of the Liberals being pro-VIA and the Conservatives being anti-VIA generally holds up, there are some notable exceptions with the Pepin cuts (Liberals) in 1981, Martin (Liberals) axing the VIA Fast proposal in 2004 and Harper (Conservatives) investing some C$500 million into partially triple-tracking the Kingston Subdivision and upgrading the HEP fleet (including the creation of Prestige Class) through his Canada’s Economic Action Plan (2009)…

Your points are all correct and I wasn't taking sides - going so far as not naming the parties. The current government isn't going to spend a dime on anything west of Ontario and if the Maritimes don't vote for them next election I wouldn't be surprised if the Ocean is on the chopping block. Trains=votes and votes=trains. Simple math leaves us Quebec, part of Ontario and mandated routes elsewhere in the country.

 

[Urban Sky]

Your points are all correct and I wasn't taking sides - going so far as not naming the parties. The current government isn't going to spend a dime on anything west of Ontario and if the Maritimes don't vote for them next election I wouldn't be surprised if the Ocean is on the chopping block. Trains=votes and votes=trains. Simple math leaves us Quebec, part of Ontario and mandated routes elsewhere in the country.

As long as there are mandated routes west of Ontario, you’ll need a service which can shuffle the equipment between the maintenance centers and the Canadian is the most cost-effective way to achieve this. The Ocean, on the other hand, is much more vulnerable, but the restoration of the Gaspé would stabilize it. My personal prediction is that VIA’s current network will survive, though it’s really high time to get the RFP for the new non-Corridor fleet out…

 

[Northwestern]

I've heard, for many years, that the VIA Canadian might be on the way out. It would be sad if that happened. The only Vancouver to Banff or Jasper train would then be the expensive Rocky Mountaineer. I wonder what impact a non-existent "Canadian" train would have on tourist dollars.

 

[MARC Rider]

I've heard, for many years, that the VIA Canadian might be on the way out. It would be sad if that happened. The only Vancouver to Banff or Jasper train would then be the expensive Rocky Mountaineer. I wonder what impact a non-existent "Canadian" train would have on tourist dollars.

Well, I spent about $20 in Winnipeg for a drink at the Fort Garry Hotel during the layover there, and about $35 in Jasper for a couple of souvenir tuques, a postcard, and a coffee and a donut at Tim Horton. That's in addition to the big bucks I spent on hotels an meals in Vancouver and Toronto. Plus, I discovered spend money on booze on the train.

 

[Willbridge]

Slowly the wheels of government turned. This response from the transport minister included the news that the Canadian on the CP would be going back to its three night schedule. Prior to the 1981 cutbacks, both transcons had been operating on the four-night schedules of the old (CP) Dominion and (CN) Continental.




Then, everything political was reset to zero by results of the September 4th national election.



It all seemed so reasonable in 1984. Customers liked Superliners. A Canadian company owned the technology. It would create car building jobs in Quebec and their operation would benefit the Maritimes and the West. What could go wrong?


To put things into perspective for American readers, here's what was going in in this same period in the States. It's relevant for Canadians, because as commentators observed, the new Mulroney government had infrastructure members and deficit hawks. The latter admired what the Reagan administration was attempting to do.

Next: the Panorama is replaced. The Skeena revived.

 

[jiml]

Slowly the wheels of government turned. This response from the transport minister included the news that the Canadian on the CP would be going back to its three night schedule. Prior to the 1981 cutbacks, both transcons had been operating on the four-night schedules of the old (CP) Dominion and (CN) Continental.

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Then, everything political was reset to zero by results of the September 4th national election.
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It all seemed so reasonable in 1984. Customers liked Superliners. A Canadian company owned the technology. It would create car building jobs in Quebec and their operation would benefit the Maritimes and the West. What could go wrong?
View attachment 35400

To put things into perspective for American readers, here's what was going in in this same period in the States. It's relevant for Canadians, because as commentators observed, the new Mulroney government had infrastructure members and deficit hawks. The latter admired what the Reagan administration was attempting to do.
View attachment 35401
Next: the Panorama is replaced. The Skeena revived.

Once again you've jogged the memories. I had completely forgotten about the improved Montreal-New York rail line to be 90% paid by the US! Think how many discussions have been held since on this subject here and in other rail forums.

 

[Willbridge]

The VIA Rail review task force set up by the new transport minister included Nick Vincent of Transport 2000 Canada. He kept us posted. Here is the planned consists for the Skeena and the transcons.



Discussion of a potential Superliner order continued.


More discussion of Superliners, and reports on ridership trends. The favorable effects of modifying the 1981 cutback plan showed that better service planning could gain ridership, even without an increase in train-miles.

The 1984 story was reflected in the Rail Travel News "Rate the Trains" report which covered the period in 1984 that included the launch of the Panorama.


Next: Farewell to the Panorama and hello Super Continental and Skeena.

 

[Willbridge]

We never learned why VIA fumbled the grand re-opening of the Super Continental. It was difficult to celebrate while the Edmonton <> Calgary link was being proposed for discontinuance.


On the positive side, VIA produced attractive booklets and brochures.


Rail Travel News had trouble digesting the news, given what was going on in the States, as well as Canada, but after the brief notes in the issue above, they gradually caught up with trip reports. All the news that fits!000











Next: a last look at what happened.

 

[Rasputin]

Thanks for posting those items. It is a reminder of a time when passenger rail was much more relevant to the public in western Canada.

 

[Northwestern]

Yes, an interesting post. Thanks. I keep hoping for an Edmonton to Calgary train to allow a loop from Vancouver-Kamloops-Edmonton-Calgary-Kamloops-Vancouver. A chance to ride both the VIA and Rocky Mountaineer on the same trip.