VIA announces new cars, amenity upgrades

[Green Maned Lion]

What's not to understand? They want LD rail dead.

 

[Amfleeter]

What's not to understand? They want LD rail dead.

Is it that harsh up in Ottawa?

From what I've seen in the US, it's not generally that DC is anti-rail, it's more there's a quite large pro-rail and rail subsidy lobby, a large semi pro-rail lobby, who oppose Amtrak's current state of unprofitability, but don't necessarily oppose Amtrak itself, even the LD routes, but support the freight railroads, usually strongly, and a fairly small, but vocal, anti-rail lobby, more than a few of whom are in the pockets of bus and trucking companies.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

What's not to understand? They want LD rail dead.

Is it that harsh up in Ottawa?
From what I've seen in the US, it's not generally that DC is anti-rail, it's more there's a quite large pro-rail and rail subsidy lobby, a large semi pro-rail lobby, who oppose Amtrak's current state of unprofitability, but don't necessarily oppose Amtrak itself, even the LD routes, but support the freight railroads, usually strongly, and a fairly small, but vocal, anti-rail lobby, more than a few of whom are in the pockets of bus and trucking companies.

Make no mistake, trucking companies, maybe, but bus companies, no. The fact that Greyhound routes generally don't parallel Amtrak LD's means there is no reason for the bus industry to be lobbying against Amtrak. More like car fans and airplane fans. For example, go on www.airliners.net and you will find plenty of people who say "Screw trains, I'll just fly and get there faster." Now the bus fan boards are usually friendly to rail fans and many of them like riding trains, including me, but not vice versa.

This is why rail support has turned into a weird game that I'm dropping out of. Doesn't mean I don't like trains, I'm just not going to talk about trains much anymore. Sorry, guys. And again, just because I like trains doesn't mean I have to like Amtrak or support Amtrak. If you need a LD rail "fix" you can always go to China, India, or Russia, somewhere I can actually afford a train ticket with regularity instead of splurging every time. Same problem with VIA just amplified.

 

[Amfleeter]

What's not to understand? They want LD rail dead.

Is it that harsh up in Ottawa?
From what I've seen in the US, it's not generally that DC is anti-rail, it's more there's a quite large pro-rail and rail subsidy lobby, a large semi pro-rail lobby, who oppose Amtrak's current state of unprofitability, but don't necessarily oppose Amtrak itself, even the LD routes, but support the freight railroads, usually strongly, and a fairly small, but vocal, anti-rail lobby, more than a few of whom are in the pockets of bus and trucking companies.

Make no mistake, trucking companies, maybe, but bus companies, no. The fact that Greyhound routes generally don't parallel Amtrak LD's means there is no reason for the bus industry to be lobbying against Amtrak. More like car fans and airplane fans. For example, go on www.airliners.net and you will find plenty of people who say "Screw trains, I'll just fly and get there faster." Now the bus fan boards are usually friendly to rail fans and many of them like riding trains, including me, but not vice versa.

This is why rail support has turned into a weird game that I'm dropping out of. Doesn't mean I don't like trains, I'm just not going to talk about trains much anymore. Sorry, guys. And again, just because I like trains doesn't mean I have to like Amtrak or support Amtrak. If you need a LD rail "fix" you can always go to China, India, or Russia, somewhere I can actually afford a train ticket with regularity instead of splurging every time. Same problem with VIA just amplified.

I was more referring to Megabus in the bus lobbying statement - in the NEC area, they do often compete with Amtrak, especially for the youth market (Which I am part of), not so much the LD and business market (who Amtrak and the airlines firmly have control of).

Sorry if I offended you with the statement - I didn't intend to say anything about the bus fans, who, from what I've seen, are very supportive of Amtrak, I was more talking about the corporate entities who compete with Amtrak heavily in the Corridors, especially the Northeast Corridor - my area of interest is more the Corridor service than LD service. And of course, this is all just my perspective from what I've seen of the competition between Amtrak and people like BoltBus and Megabus, who have very cheap fares that appeal to youth. Greyhound, from what I've seen, caters more to the in-betweens, and I agree, doesn't compete with Amtrak. Price-wise, I've seen them be fairly close, actually. The bus is a great way to get to places it's just inconvenient and expensive to put rail - and it will continue to be.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

It's OK, I wasn't offended, but I mean, you mentioned LD's yet Megabus doesn't run LD's. But I agree that airlines are firmly in control of LD travel, buses, cars, and trains are all secondary. Cars are all over the place but IMO most car miles are probably driving to/from work or shopping, road trippers should be targeted by trains and buses, which is unfortunately only done by buses and not by trains, because trains are often too expensive and inconvenient to challenge road trippers. That's why I often suggest going to China, India, or Russia for a train ride, I mean, per-mile fares are just so much lower in those countries, and you still get the LD train experience. And goes to much more places, much more frequently, you know? Hence why I'm a railfan that's not an Amtrak fan.

I know politics have to do with all this but I think we should just forget about politics and just ride trains. To me, constant lobbying about trains (anti-rail vs pro-rail) really isn't worth the time when we could spend that effort actually riding trains. Same thing with all other forms of transport.

 

[Amfleeter]

yet Megabus doesn't run LD's.

I was referring to Megabus in the context of the NEC and the youth market, where they *do* compete - especially from Hampton Roads to DC, since there's several large schools down here with students from Northern Virginia being the majority. Was trying to say they don't so much compete in the LD market. (though nor does Amtrak except on certain routes like the CHI-NYP and CHI-WAS runs, and the Auto Train). But yeah, I mostly lobby because I use Amtrak to commute between Norfolk and DC - in addition to seeking employment with Amtrak - Amtrak's useful to commute because it's closer than the Megabus stop, and actually cheaper or the same price as Greyhound sometimes.

Anyway, back on the topic of the Canadian, it does seem that VIA's staying in the direction of making more money from it. I wonder if they'll convert any of the Chateaus, when they finally go in for overhaul, into a more luxurious configuration as a full-length Prestige sleeper. I did see the Park they were displaying hooked up to a Chateau, since I arrived in Vancouver the day they actually did the unveiling event for Prestige, along with a Business class LRC coach - which, from the pictures, looks very, very nice inside. Better than Acela FC, I'd say.

I do wonder what VIA's going to do with the Chateaus, though - haven't they not gone through the same recent interior overhauls the Manors did?

Here's the new Business Class, for reference.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I think VIA Rail is doing the WRONG thing with the Canadian. The Canadian, along with other VIA Rail Budd trains, has long been known as the last remaining classic streamliner trains. They had the service and the equipment of a bygone era. This no longer exists with VIA's Prestige Class. When people ride the Canadian, people expect the kind of train ride seen in "North by Northwest" or the "Silver Streak", the latter being filmed with the real Canadian trainset. This is now diminishing rapidly. What a shame to turn classic Budds into motorhomes on rails.

I hope VIA will keep the Skeena and Hudson Bay right. Will they turn all the Park Cars into Prestige Class?

This is what people want to ride: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=482470&nseq=37.

 

[railbuck]

... That's why I often suggest going to China, India, or Russia for a train ride, I mean, per-mile fares are just so much lower in those countries, and you still get the LD train experience.

Once you add in the LD plane experience, is the effective per-mile train fare even close to being competitive?

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

... That's why I often suggest going to China, India, or Russia for a train ride, I mean, per-mile fares are just so much lower in those countries, and you still get the LD train experience.

Once you add in the LD plane experience, is the effective per-mile train fare even close to being competitive?

Yes, it is definitely competitive, because of all the flight miles must count too, but more importantly, you're experiencing other countries. In China, a Soft Sleeper ticket costs roughly $0.07 per mile. Travelling by day? A hard seat costs you only $0.016 per mile. That's per mile, not kilometer. SWC-equivalent in China: $136 in Soft Sleeper. Do that three times in a triangle, add on the food costs and airfare, that's still no more than $2000 MAX and you still beat riding Amtrak and HEAVILY beat VIA Rail prices without even counting the air miles. As for the flight, well it's not that bad.

And what if the person is an airplane fan who might actually enjoy a long flight, given it is in his/her favorite plane. Don't underestimate the number of airplane enthusiasts.

Even from the railfan perspective, you can ride a few types of trains or you can ride many types of trains.

So really, if VIA Rail wants to be a cruise train, be a cruise train, but don't be a motorhome consist on rails. That's my opinion.

 

[railiner]

Saw this on google images while looking for pictures of Prestige class - now this raises my eyebrows. It kind of feels like cheapening to me, totally redoing the Park car like this and it disrupts the 'classic' feel of the Canadian, and I really wish they'd have kept the bullet lounge like it was, or at least given it something still fitting with the rest of the train.

Actually met the VIA Rail media relations person traveling there for this event while traveling on the Canadian, and happened to ask them whether it'd be Prestige-only - they haven't decided yet apparently whether Sleeper Plus will still be able to access the Park Car - it may be Prestige only.

I think that interior looks pretty nice. Certainly looks more comfortable than the 1950's stylings in the other Park cars which always struck me as stark and plain.

I agree the Park Cars as is are very plain and sterile. In my opinion more sterile than the newly refurbished Amtrak lounges. But they could be upgraded without disturbing the historical nature of the car.... ala Pullman as pictured below. THAT is what an observation lounge should look like.

Aside from the big difference in the fixed vs. movable seats, the view out is basically the same....the angle of the shots may make the older style appear to have more visibility, but the window arrangement is the same...only the framing and paneling are different....

 

[Devil's Advocate]

When people ride the Canadian [they] expect the kind of train ride seen in "North by Northwest" or the "Silver Streak". This is now diminishing rapidly. What a shame to turn classic Budds into motorhomes on rails.

That was my take as well. It may be comfortable but it's not very classy. Although to me the bigger issue is that they're considering kicking sleeper passengers out of the park car. Oh well it was fun while it lasted. At least I don't have to argue with Canada's customs and immigration officers about what constitutes a legitimate tourist attraction.

I just think it is generally silly to install unmovable seats facing inwards next to windows. But that is just me probably. I am told by some experts from railroads that passengers really don't care to look outside while traveling as much as I do.

When I rode in the rear of the Park Car several of the other passengers were glued to their iPhones and iPads and didn't seem to notice or care about anything going on outside. Even in the dome some folks would just be sitting up there reading books or drawing or what have you. Seemed they could have been almost anywhere and never even noticed the difference.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I think the worst thing you can do in a dome is sleep. You're supposed to view the scenery, not sleep. No wonder people think it's "bad luck". I hope they will not convert all the Park Cars because of the Skeena.

 

[jis]

I think the three day Canadian schedule was the last time that train was really attractive to me. Since then it has been steady downhill trudge while supported by more polished marketing. That is again just me of course. I am currently not particularly attracted to travel by the Canadian again. I'd rather explore the more remote other trains in Canada, which I will start next year once the house buying and move is behind me.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

VIA has cut frequencies on all their trains, jacked prices, and has refused to buy vaguely sensible equipment. They should have replaced their LD fleet in the early 90s when Bombardier, a Canadian company for god sakes, had the Superliner production line running again.

They could have, with the insane savings the Superliner efficiency would grant, ran all their trains daily. They could have built Superliner diners with dome upper levels. They could build a PPC style lounge for sleeper passengers. They could have built rounded end dome lounges for the first and last car on the train and maintained dome style views even.

But they didn't. They insist on running at relatively high capital cost, relatively high (uneccsarily so) labor costs, and low frequencies. They have consistently demonstrated a lack of desire to provide transportation function on anything but mandated trains and the Toronto Montreal corridor trains- which they still run only very infrequently.

 

[jis]

Shhhhh.... Don't say the obvious. You will grossly offend the Budd cheering section.

 

[Amfleeter]

VIA has cut frequencies on all their trains, jacked prices, and has refused to buy vaguely sensible equipment. They should have replaced their LD fleet in the early 90s when Bombardier, a Canadian company for god sakes, had the Superliner production line running again.

They could have, with the insane savings the Superliner efficiency would grant, ran all their trains daily. They could have built Superliner diners with dome upper levels. They could build a PPC style lounge for sleeper passengers. They could have built rounded end dome lounges for the first and last car on the train and maintained dome style views even.

But they didn't. They insist on running at relatively high capital cost, relatively high (uneccsarily so) labor costs, and low frequencies. They have consistently demonstrated a lack of desire to provide transportation function on anything but mandated trains and the Toronto Montreal corridor trains- which they still run only very infrequently.

A fun little fact about the Canadian - some of the crew have no rooms onboard, and sleep in one of the domes. Wouldn't have that problem with Superliners.

Honestly, I would've loved a Superliner roomette on the Canadian. The seats are more plush, and with the folding table and coat rack, along with the downstairs luggage rack, much more a room I can stay in during the day.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I'm sorry, but last time I rode a Superliner Roomette two years ago, the lower berth broke and I had to sleep on the HORRIBLE upper berth. I would rather sleep in a boxcar.

 

[jis]

I'm sorry, but last time I rode a Superliner Roomette two years ago, the lower berth broke and I had to sleep on the HORRIBLE upper berth. I would rather sleep in a boxcar.

I agree. Superliner upper berths are the closest thing to a coffin that I have ever had the pleasure of sleeping in. Well perhaps the upper berth in an Indian Railways three tier sleeper is worse, I'll admit.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Oops, duplicate post! "Out damn spot!"

 

[Bob Dylan]

While the coffin in Superliner Roomettes is very confining and uncomfortable, I think back to the thread where Navy types ( including me) discussed how really cramped the berthing areas are aboard ships! Submarines take the Grand Prize by far!

As for Roomettes(Cabins for one) on the Canadian, they are smaller but the mattress and bedding is much better! For that matter the Sections also have very comfortable beds with first rate bedding! Storage space is @ a Premium,except in the Bedrooms, resulting in Checked Baggage for larger bags!

 

[TVRM610]

As for Roomettes(Cabins for one) on the Canadian, they are smaller but the mattress and bedding is much better! For that matter the Sections also have very comfortable beds with first rate bedding! Storage space is @ a Premium,except in the Bedrooms, resulting in Checked Baggage for larger bags!

Agreed. The Amtrak Roomette has a far superior design in my opinion. The seats facing the double window, the table, some (not much but some) storage space etc. But when bed time comes VIA is wayyyyyyyyyy more comfy.

 

[jis]

I know I will get thoroughly crucified for saying this probably, but I actually like the VIA Renaissance sleepers much more than the old Budd ones. Now I shall duck.

 

[Bob Dylan]

"Everyone to their own taste!" said the Old Maid as she kissed the cow!

The Ren Cars are nice too, its just that we oldsters tend to look on the Budd Cars as how Rail Cars should be!

 

[Amfleeter]

As for Roomettes(Cabins for one) on the Canadian, they are smaller but the mattress and bedding is much better! For that matter the Sections also have very comfortable beds with first rate bedding! Storage space is @ a Premium,except in the Bedrooms, resulting in Checked Baggage for larger bags!

Agreed. The Amtrak Roomette has a far superior design in my opinion. The seats facing the double window, the table, some (not much but some) storage space etc. But when bed time comes VIA is wayyyyyyyyyy more comfy.

Oh, I will agree on the comfy bed, but that's not intrinsic to the Superliner, it's just Amtrak's choice of how they set the beds up. They could honestly have better sheets, and they could have a mattress to put on the lower bed, and improve the one on the upper (which would be pretty nice for the lower, the mattress, and the seat cushions below). It would just be a matter of money and willpower on Amtrak's part, which they've occasionally shown. The Superliners are excellent sleepers, save how Amtrak does the bedding - which is basically a cost cutting measure. The seats are very comfortable in my opinion during the day though, since they double as beds. Not particularly a fan of the seats in the Budd sleepers, frankly.

Though I have to say, the Viewliners are superior, though I've never actually ridden one, on account of that second window and the spacious, Superliner-style accommodations.

 

[Anderson]

I've actually ridden in the new BC on the Corridor. I'm not much of a fan nor much of an opponent; I like the 2-1 layout but I don't really like the seats. As much as I hate to say it, my biggest gripe is that they gave away 1/4 of the seating and didn't get much in return.