Train to link Norfolk to Richmond in three years

[Southern Belle]

The following was on the front page of the Virginian-Pilot this week:

Train to link Norfolk to Richmond in three years

By Debbie Messina

The Virginian-Pilot

© June 17, 2010

In three years, travelers will be able to board an Amtrak train at Harbor Park in Norfolk and ride to Richmond and beyond for the first time in more than three decades.

When it signed off on its six-year building plan Wednesday, the Commonwealth Transportation Board approved $93 million to re-establish passenger rail in South Hampton Roads.

Since passenger rail in South Hampton Roads ended in 1977, the closest trains are across the harbor in Newport News.

Under the plan, Norfolk Southern's tracks that roughly parallel U.S. 460 and CSX's tracks from Petersburg to Richmond will be upgraded to accommodate one passenger train a day running at conventional speeds of up to 79 mph. Fares have not been set.

For the rest of the article, go to:

http://hamptonroads.com/2010/06/train-link...mr&cid=srch

 

[Green Maned Lion]

As always, I don't believe it until the first wheel turns in revenue service.

 

[Big Iron]

Should anyone be interested, the Executive Summary for this initiative is in the link below. No funding has been appropriated at this time.

http://www.drpt.virginia.gov/projects/file...e%20Summary.pdf

The entire study can be viewed at http://www.drpt.virginia.gov/projects/hamptonpassenger.aspx.

 

[railiner]

I remember when Amtrak used to operate the Mountaineer on that route that N&W ran from Norfolk (Lamberts Point?), via Suffolk to Petersburg, and then on to Farmville, Lynchburg, Roanoke, to terminate at Tri-State Station (Catlettsburg, Ky.), where connection on to Cincinnati and Chicago could be made with the Cardinal. Soimetime around 1977, It was discontinued between Norfolk and Richmond and was replaced by the Hilltopper, which was an extension of the Night Owl from Boston, Washington on to Richmond, then west on the route of the Mountaineer to Tri State Station. At about this same time, service was restored on the former C&O route of the George Washington from Newport News to Richmond by the Colonial then going on to Washington and Boston. ( The George Washington originally ran from Newport News to Cincinnati via Richmond and Charlottesville, with a section connecting from Washington to Charlottesville as today's Cardinal does. There used to be a 'thruway' type dedicated charter bus run by Greyhound from its terminal in Norfolk to trainside in Newport News.

 

[Big Iron]

I remember when Amtrak used to operate the Mountaineer on that route that N&W ran from Norfolk (Lamberts Point?), via Suffolk to Petersburg, and then on to Farmville, Lynchburg, Roanoke, to terminate at Tri-State Station (Catlettsburg, Ky.), where connection on to Cincinnati and Chicago could be made with the Cardinal. Soimetime around 1977, It was discontinued between Norfolk and Richmond and was replaced by the Hilltopper, which was an extension of the Night Owl from Boston, Washington on to Richmond, then west on the route of the Mountaineer to Tri State Station. At about this same time, service was restored on the former C&O route of the George Washington from Newport News to Richmond by the Colonial then going on to Washington and Boston. ( The George Washington originally ran from Newport News to Cincinnati via Richmond and Charlottesville, with a section connecting from Washington to Charlottesville as today's Cardinal does. There used to be a 'thruway' type dedicated charter bus run by Greyhound from its terminal in Norfolk to trainside in Newport News.

Sounds like you are well versed with the history surrounding these rail lines. Perhaps correct my recollection of a trip I took in 1974 to CHI, was 14 at the time. Departed RVR on a bus to the rural station in Ellerson, VA to catch the Goerge Washington, two cars, two E-units, combined with another train in Charlottesville, VA (James Whitcomb Riley perhaps) which then combined with the Hilltopper is Cattlesburg, KY. I remember the train picking up a dome car in Cattlesburg.

I can aslo recall that the RVR-NPN section of the George Washington running regularly with a B&O dome car.

 

[Southern Belle]

I remember when Amtrak used to operate the Mountaineer on that route that N&W ran from Norfolk (Lamberts Point?), via Suffolk to Petersburg, and then on to Farmville, Lynchburg, Roanoke, to terminate at Tri-State Station (Catlettsburg, Ky.), where connection on to Cincinnati and Chicago could be made with the Cardinal. Soimetime around 1977, It was discontinued between Norfolk and Richmond and was replaced by the Hilltopper, which was an extension of the Night Owl from Boston, Washington on to Richmond, then west on the route of the Mountaineer to Tri State Station. At about this same time, service was restored on the former C&O route of the George Washington from Newport News to Richmond by the Colonial then going on to Washington and Boston. ( The George Washington originally ran from Newport News to Cincinnati via Richmond and Charlottesville, with a section connecting from Washington to Charlottesville as today's Cardinal does. There used to be a 'thruway' type dedicated charter bus run by Greyhound from its terminal in Norfolk to trainside in Newport News.

Amtrak provides bus service that connects the Newport News trains to and from Virginia Beach and Norfolk. The bus stop in Virginia Beach is a block from the ocean at 19th St. and Pacific Ave. (no shelter), Virginia Beach, VA 23451 and the bus stop in Norfolk is in downtown Norfolk at East Virginia Beach Blvd and Monticello Ave (Bus Shelter at Cedar Grove Parking Lot), Norfolk, VA 23510

 

[afigg]

Should anyone be interested, the Executive Summary for this initiative is in the link below. No funding has been appropriated at this time.

Well, if I read the newspaper article and the VDOT press release correctly, the Commonwealth Transportation Board authorized $93 million in state funds for the Richmond to Hampton Roads corridor and service to Norfolk on the south side of the river. So unless the funds are pulled or they run into large cost overruns, the odds of a daily train to Norfolk in 3-4 years are probably pretty good. What is worth noting is that the Norfolk route will initially not go through the Richmond Main Street station, but will instead go south from Staples Mill to Petersburg, then to Norfolk. Going through Main Street station will have to wait until/if VA gets federal funding for upgrading the RF&P line and entire upgrade of the Main Street station and the route through there as part of SEHSR awards.

Digging through the VRPT website, the FY11 Rail and Public Transportation 6 year funding allocation and projections document shows $93 million to spent in the FY11 to FY14 periods on Richmond to Hampton Roads Passenger Rail. The Norfolk train operating subsidy starts at $4 million in FY14, although it is noted as unfunded at this time. The FY11 subsidies for the Lynchburg and Richmond Trains are fully funded for FY11 and about 1/2 funded for FY12. But if the Lynchburg service is running at a surplus, they may not need the funds for the Lynchburg service. There are other interesting funded projects in the breakdown of the Virginia Rail Enhancement Fund allocations. $34 million for the Virginia Avenue Tunnel rebuild project from FY11 to FY14 (VA fiscal years begin on July 1). $15.8 million in FY11 for Nokesville to Calverton Double Tracks which presumably would benefit the Lynchburg Regional, Crescent, and Cardinal. There are also a bunch of smaller grants to the Buckingham Branch Railway Company for a number of rail & tie replacement, bridge and track rehabilitation & upgrade projects.

The last I saw, the applications for the federal FY10 $2.5 billion HSR grants are due in July with the awards to be announced in October. But these grants will require 20% state matching funds- as I understand it. With the McDonnell administration now in place, which does not come across as very pro-rail, I wonder if VRPT will be submitting serious applications for grants to 3rd track more of the RF&P line and improvements to the Staples Mill to Richmond Main Street to Petersburg route?

 

[volkris]

My concern is that this seems to be happening outside of any cogent general transportation plan for the area.

With the imminent third crossing about to dramatically change the transportation patterns in the area, should all of this money be committed and spent before those plans are completely nailed down? And what about the fact that this potentially very expensive HSR route basically duplicates the existing line to Newport News that DOES run through RVM?

There seems to be a lot of duplication of effort here, with the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing.

 

[Big Iron]

My concern is that this seems to be happening outside of any cogent general transportation plan for the area.
With the imminent third crossing about to dramatically change the transportation patterns in the area, should all of this money be committed and spent before those plans are completely nailed down? And what about the fact that this potentially very expensive HSR route basically duplicates the existing line to Newport News that DOES run through RVM?

There seems to be a lot of duplication of effort here, with the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing.

Given my limited involvement in the Petersburg, Suffolk, Norfolk portion of this plan I believe that both hands know what is going on. The interests are more political in nature in protecting ones turf. I agree with the duplication issue you raise. I would be more interested in seeing the money used for more frequent trains with better connections North/South in RVR than a competing route in close proximity to an existing route. Folks in Suffolk and Norfolk would have my head for saying that as they view Amtrak as an enhancement to their economic fortunes. The HSR aspect of this plan would only decrease transit times from Petersburg to Norfolk by 6 minutes. Hardly something to spend double digit millions on. I think the Lynchburg experiment proves that giving riders more options creates more ridership.

 

[Ryan]

And what about the fact that this potentially very expensive HSR route basically duplicates the existing line to Newport News that DOES run through RVM?

Perhaps for someone that lives in Newport News like you. For someone that lives in the Greenbriar/Lynnhaven areas of Virginia Beach and pretty much all of Chesapeake, the Norfolk station is vastly easier to get to.

Also, the third crossing is a pipe dream - there's no way that thing's getting built in any timeframe that can be called "imminent".

 

[abcnews]

I really think this new train is a great idea...

*The N & W Main is in excellent shape - running stack trains etc... Plus a long straight, tangent from the Dismal Swamp to Petersburg.

*There is a much greater population on the South Side of Hampton Roads (Norfolk, VA Beach - the states largest city, Chesapeake, Portsmouth, Suffolk - plus good ole Petersburg - Tri Cities), verses Newport News, Hampton & Williamsburg.

*And for now - avoiding Main St Station makes so much sense. I love that old station, I really do, but the alternative route (belt line) is very scenic with a high bridge crossing over the James, and certainly much quicker - saving time for the riders. I think, if they really ran it up the old Seaboard - to Main St Station - you add about a half hour to the trip. The loss in time is not worth the few extra riders.

I think they should add a stop near Fort Lee - along US 460 and I-295 (Prince George, VA area)

 

[abcnews]

btw - I once road the "Mountaineer" from Petersburg to Roanoke around 1974. What a ride - smooth, scenic, very few riders and a nice dome car.A great way to head west through Virginia.

 

[afigg]

*And for now - avoiding Main St Station makes so much sense. I love that old station, I really do, but the alternative route (belt line) is very scenic with a high bridge crossing over the James, and certainly much quicker - saving time for the riders. I think, if they really ran it up the old Seaboard - to Main St Station - you add about a half hour to the trip. The loss in time is not worth the few extra riders.

Main Street station in Richmond would attract more than a few riders if there were decent travel times to WAS and Norfolk (and points south). Virginia DRPT has plans for major improvements to the currently very slow Staples Mill Road to Main Street station route. The NEC Master Plan ballparks the Richmond area upgrades for a Acca yard bypass, other track upgrades, a major upgrade of the Richmond station, and replacing the Staples Mill Road station with a new station at Parham Road at $649 million. The goal is to reduce the travel time from WAS to Main Street Station by 45 minutes with a 3rd track and 90 mph speeds (well, in the few straighter segments)

For detailed plans and maps on the route running south from Richmond Main street station to Petersburg and then to Raleigh for the SE HSR, they can be found at http://www.sehsr.org/deis/deis.html. They have posted the Stage 2 DEIS for the public comments and meetings phase. One part that impresses me about that plan is that it calls for closing ALL the grade crossings between Richmond and Raleigh over the proposed route which will make future upgrades to an electrified true HSR line with >110 mph speeds easier to implement.

 

[volkris]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the current status is good enough. Service absolutely needs to continue past Newport News through to Norfolk and Virginia Beach in some form as, yes, that's the huge population center. It's a minor tragedy that the line gets so close but is stopped by "a little river."

I'd also accept spending a little money now for temporary service between Norfolk/VB and Richmond until the final solution can be arrived at where the route isn't duplicated.

But before starting to talk about longterm HSR that duplicates the existing line, I think the entire region needs to get up and kick political butt to get things really going. Every single person in the area, whether they drive, bike, fly, or ride trains, is personally affected by this quagmire. This isn't anything approaching a rail-only issue.

It seems to me that the geography is perfect for rail: it's a straight shot through Richmond, Williamsburg, Newport News/Hampton, Norfolk, and VB. It's a shame that political messes--and not even the hard idealistic kinds--seem to be throwing away opportunity to take advantage of the opportunity.

 

[Ryan]

I'd be willing to bet that (HSR aside) that it's significantly cheaper to do this "duplicate" routing than it would be to extend the line from Newport News to anywhere on the Southside.

 

[volkris]

I'd be willing to bet that (HSR aside) that it's significantly cheaper to do this "duplicate" routing than it would be to extend the line from Newport News to anywhere on the Southside.

I have trouble believing that.

At the moment there are, what, two or three trains a day arriving at NPN?

Giving that they will be creating a crossing from the peninsula to Norfolk, how much more would it cost to either put tracks through a lane of the new crossing or make a train only tube that could also be used by freight? How much would a rail-only tube remove from highway traffic, considering that the existing tubes are often choked and a new crossing would soon be choked as well?

It might initially appear cheaper outside of a larger, regional plan for transportation, but overall it's got to be more expensive to run twice as many trains over a ninety mile route that also fails to gain the benefit of simply getting people through the tunnels more effectively.

 

[Ryan]

I was really only thinking construction costs, not operational costs. Sinking a new tunnel is expensive and time consuming - far more so than any improvements that will be needed to get passenger trains running on the alternative route. I'll be very surprised if we see a third crossing become operational in the next 25 years.

 

[Southern Belle]

The following was on the front page of the Virginian-Pilot this week:

Train to link Norfolk to Richmond in three years

By Debbie Messina

The Virginian-Pilot

© June 17, 2010

In three years, travelers will be able to board an Amtrak train at Harbor Park in Norfolk and ride to Richmond and beyond for the first time in more than three decades.

When it signed off on its six-year building plan Wednesday, the Commonwealth Transportation Board approved $93 million to re-establish passenger rail in South Hampton Roads.

Since passenger rail in South Hampton Roads ended in 1977, the closest trains are across the harbor in Newport News.

Under the plan, Norfolk Southern's tracks that roughly parallel U.S. 460 and CSX's tracks from Petersburg to Richmond will be upgraded to accommodate one passenger train a day running at conventional speeds of up to 79 mph. Fares have not been set.

For the rest of the article, go to:

http://hamptonroads.com/2010/06/train-link...mr&cid=srch

Another article in the Virginian-Pilot:

Rail chief hopeful for success of Norfolk-to-Richmond line

By Debbie Messina

The Virginian-Pilot

© June 28, 2010

NORFOLK

Thelma Drake, state rail chief, is confident that the passenger train set to roll out of Norfolk in three years will rival the success of the recently launched Lynchburg service.

The Commonwealth Trans-portation Board last week approved $93 million to upgrade tracks between Harbor Park in Norfolk and Staples Mill s tation near Richmond for the Amtrak service.

"We think it's money well- spent," Drake, director of the Virginia Department of Rail and Public Transportation, said last week. "And we think we'll have Lynchburg-like success."

Ridership for the Amtrak service launched in October out of Lynchburg is double the projections, exceed ing its annual ridership goal in just six months, with 55,025 passengers. The annual goal is 51,000. The train follows the Interstate 81/U.S. 29 corridor through Charlottesville to Washington, then on to cities in the Northeast.

For the complete article:

http://hamptonroads.com/2010/06/rail-chief-hopeful-success-norfolktorichmond-line