Through car CL <---> Pennsylvanian? (2+ years old)

[Gratt]

If Amtrak had some extra viewliner sleepers (which it dose not) then why not an overnight train from PGH-NYP?

If the line gets faster you can even include a city or two in OH.

Imagine a train that leaves PGH at 10PM stops in PHL at 6:30AM and gets into NYP at 8:30AM

I would bet business travelers would love that. If there was enough demand in PHL you could even drop off a car like they did in the old days.

That is the type of business IMHO I think Amtrak should expand into, but then again what do I know

 

[Oldsmoboi]

I would use that. I have to be in NYP first thing in the morning from PGH rather often.

 

[Oldsmoboi]

Amtrak could even turn that with existing equipment plus a viewliner.

 

[DivMiler]

If a sleeper was added to a Pittsburgh (PGH) - Philadelphia (PHL) routing, what is the likelihood a baggage car would follow and there would be checked baggage service on any of the intermediate stations, such as Harrisburg (HAR)?

 

[Anderson]

If Amtrak had some extra viewliner sleepers (which it dose not) then why not an overnight train from PGH-NYP?

If the line gets faster you can even include a city or two in OH.

Imagine a train that leaves PGH at 10PM stops in PHL at 6:30AM and gets into NYP at 8:30AM

I would bet business travelers would love that. If there was enough demand in PHL you could even drop off a car like they did in the old days.

That is the type of business IMHO I think Amtrak should expand into, but then again what do I know

That...would be an amazing move on Amtrak's part. Especially since Pittsburgh is starting to crash into the same fare zone that Roanoke and Des Moines are in, this makes all sorts of sense.

One oddball question: Would it be plausible for the Pittsburgh metro area (I say it like this because I know the city of Pittsburgh proper is in bad shape) to help kick in for a train? I know it's one of those odd things that keep coming up in my mind, but I'm wondering if (presuming the per-train net cost to Amtrak stays around $6-7 million) it would be plausible for the cities in the Pittsburgh metro area to threaten to help fund a train rather than trying (presumably yet again) to bait a cheap carrier into the Pittsburgh airport.*

As to the travel times...doesn't the Penny have to change engines at Philly anyway? Seeing as that is probably the case, could Amtrak move the engine swap to Harrisburg if there was going to be a noticeable drop in travel times (and I think most of us can agree that a 30 minute cut in travel times would normally be worth such a move)?

*This should have happened years ago in Des Moines, such is their airfare situation. They've wasted a lot of time trying to lure Southwest, JetBlue, or another of the LCCs in with incentives, to no avail. It's telling that I can travel out there with a sleeper WAS-CHI and CHI-WAS (albeit with a substantial advance purchase) and break even after factoring in cab fare from Osceola to Des Moines versus a coach ticket (with the same advance purchase). Really, at some point the local reaction needs to shift from "We'll entice lower fares in" to "If you're not going to lower fares, we'll bring in some non-air competition".

 

[Donctor]

If a sleeper was added to a Pittsburgh (PGH) - Philadelphia (PHL) routing, what is the likelihood a baggage car would follow and there would be checked baggage service on any of the intermediate stations, such as Harrisburg (HAR)?

Amtrak doesn't have too many baggage cars to spare, but assuming that two additional cars could be assigned, this would require that the stations with checked baggage be staffed. Pennsylvania would have to pay for this.

 

[Anderson]

If a sleeper was added to a Pittsburgh (PGH) - Philadelphia (PHL) routing, what is the likelihood a baggage car would follow and there would be checked baggage service on any of the intermediate stations, such as Harrisburg (HAR)?

Amtrak doesn't have too many baggage cars to spare, but assuming that two additional cars could be assigned, this would require that the stations with checked baggage be staffed. Pennsylvania would have to pay for this.

A point comes to mind: Amtrak currently has 55 such cars on order in the baseline Viewliner II order, and another 25 in the option. Add in the baggage-dorms (25 in the base order and 15 in the option), and that's 80 baggage cars plus 40 baggage dorms. By my count, you've got a need for 55 baggage/baggage-dorms plus spares for the LD fleet, plus another two for 66/67 (so that's 57 plus spares). 80 should cover that, and 120 would leave Amtrak with what I'd argue is beyond a comfortable surplus...especially if Amtrak decides to run the remainder of the Heritage baggage cars until their next major breakdown and then chuck them (which could arguably add 10-20 baggage cars to the mix for quite a while, especially if Amtrak is content to run a batch and use the rest as "parts cars").

Edit: As to the baggage-checking costs, I'd expect that service to begin at some stations (Harrisburg being the most obvious) if the through car program works out like we hope it will. Presumably, that would save Pennsylvania the trouble of handling this themselves.

Also, another question: If a night train from PGH-NYP was seriously brought into the mix, is there a chance it could be extended back to CHI to try and get daylight service into Indiana and Ohio in a revived Broadway Limited or something in that general vein? Right now, the travel times available to folks in Cleveland and Toledo are awful, and running the train as an LD operation would give Amtrak more flexibility to negotiate with Pennsylvania over cost-sharing.

 

[cirdan]

As to the travel times...doesn't the Penny have to change engines at Philly anyway? Seeing as that is probably the case, could Amtrak move the engine swap to Harrisburg if there was going to be a noticeable drop in travel times (and I think most of us can agree that a 30 minute cut in travel times would normally be worth such a move)?

I don't know what exactly happens in Philly but they definitely do already change engines in Harrisburg.

 

[jis]

As to the travel times...doesn't the Penny have to change engines at Philly anyway? Seeing as that is probably the case, could Amtrak move the engine swap to Harrisburg if there was going to be a noticeable drop in travel times (and I think most of us can agree that a 30 minute cut in travel times would normally be worth such a move)?

I don't know what exactly happens in Philly but they definitely do already change engines in Harrisburg.

No. The Pennsylvanian changes from electric to diesel and vice versa, in Philadelphia. Te change involves taking one engine off one end of the train and tacking on the other engine at the other end. The engine change is unlikely to move to Harrisburg since there is no engine maintenance/stabling facility in Harrisburg anymore. Also an engine change where the engine has to be taken off and added to the same end is likely to take more time than what happens in Philadelphia.

 

[Oldsmoboi]

They why do we stop for 15 minutes in Harrisburg?

 

[PRR 60]

As to the travel times...doesn't the Penny have to change engines at Philly anyway? Seeing as that is probably the case, could Amtrak move the engine swap to Harrisburg if there was going to be a noticeable drop in travel times (and I think most of us can agree that a 30 minute cut in travel times would normally be worth such a move)?

I don't know what exactly happens in Philly but they definitely do already change engines in Harrisburg.

No. The Pennsylvanian changes from electric to diesel and vice versa, in Philadelphia. Te change involves taking one engine off one end of the train and tacking on the other engine at the other end. The engine change is unlikely to move to Harrisburg since there is no engine maintenance/stabling facility in Harrisburg anymore. Also an engine change where the engine has to be taken off and added to the same end is likely to take more time than what happens in Philadelphia.

Besides the logistic necessity of changing power in PHL, the equipment used on the Pennsylvanian requires it. AFAIK, neither Amfleet II's or Viewliners have trainline cabling or connections for push-pull operation. Since those cars in the consist would prevent a cab on one end from communicating with a locomotive on the other end, trains with Amfleet II or Viewliners have to be pulled by a locomotive at all times. Unless Amtrak wanted to emulate the PRR operation of most western trains and run the Pennsylvanian through Philadelphia bypassing 30th Street (eliminating the need to change directions), the power swap, including moving power to the other end of the train, must be made at PHL. I used to watch them do that with the Pennsylvanian from my office across the river from 30th Street, and it was well choreographed. There was not much time wasted.

The Pennsylvania Railroad had a sleeper-only overnight train between New York and Pittsburgh that included 30th Street as a stop. It departed New York and Pittsburgh late night and arrived at the other end in the early morning. The westbound train ran backwards between New York and Philadelphia. In Philadelphia, the power changed ends and additional sleeping cars were added for the trip to Pittsburgh. The eastbound train did the opposite. Sleeping cars opened early in New York, Philadelphia and Pittsburgh to allow passengers to turn in before the late night departure of the train. For the eastbound train (which arrived 30th Street Station before 6am), the Philadelphia sleeping car passengers could stay in their rooms until 7:45am. Basically, it was a hotel on rails.

When I was a teenager, my dad had regular business trips to Pittsburgh (from Philadelphia). He usually flew out to PIT on TWA, but I talked (badgered?) him into trying the train just once. He did (maybe just to shut me up). Afterwards, he told me it was a nice trip, but he wasn't convincing. What was convincing was that it was the one and only time he took the train to Pittsburgh. I think he wanted to spare me the gory details.

By the way, that train was called the Pittsburgher. Westbound it was PRR train 61. Eastbound it was PRR 60.

 

[PRR 60]

They why do we stop for 15 minutes in Harrisburg?

I believe it's a ops crew change (NS-qualified crew / Amtrak-qualified crew), and allows schedule make-up time.

 

[Oldsmoboi]

As to the travel times...doesn't the Penny have to change engines at Philly anyway? Seeing as that is probably the case, could Amtrak move the engine swap to Harrisburg if there was going to be a noticeable drop in travel times (and I think most of us can agree that a 30 minute cut in travel times would normally be worth such a move)?

I don't know what exactly happens in Philly but they definitely do already change engines in Harrisburg.

No. The Pennsylvanian changes from electric to diesel and vice versa, in Philadelphia. Te change involves taking one engine off one end of the train and tacking on the other engine at the other end. The engine change is unlikely to move to Harrisburg since there is no engine maintenance/stabling facility in Harrisburg anymore. Also an engine change where the engine has to be taken off and added to the same end is likely to take more time than what happens in Philadelphia.

Besides the logistic necessity of changing power in PHL, the equipment used on the Pennsylvanian requires it. AFAIK, neither Amfleet II's or Viewliners have trainline cabling or connections for push-pull operation. Since those cars in the consist would prevent a cab on one end from communicating with a locomotive on the other end, trains with Amfleet II or Viewliners have to be pulled by a locomotive at all times. Unless Amtrak wanted to emulate the PRR operation of most western trains and run the Pennsylvanian through Philadelphia bypassing 30th Street (eliminating the need to change directions), the power swap, including moving power to the other end of the train, must be made at PHL. I used to watch them do that with the Pennsylvanian from my office across the river from 30th Street, and it was well choreographed. There was not much time wasted.

The Pennsylvania Railroad had a sleeper-only overnight train between New York and Pittsburgh that included 30th Street as a stop. It departed New York and Pittsburgh late night and arrived at the other end in the early morning. The westbound train ran backwards between New York and Philadelphia. In Philadelphia, the power changed ends and additional sleeping cars were added for the trip to Pittsburgh. The eastbound train did the opposite. Sleeping cars opened early in New York, Philadelphia and Pittsburgh to allow passengers to turn in before the late night departure of the train. For the eastbound train (which arrived 30th Street Station before 6am), the Philadelphia sleeping car passengers could stay in their rooms until 7:45am. Basically, it was a hotel on rails.

When I was a teenager, my dad had regular business trips to Pittsburgh (from Philadelphia). He usually flew out to PIT on TWA, but I talked (badgered?) him into trying the train just once. He did (maybe just to shut me up). Afterwards, he told me it was a nice trip, but he wasn't convincing. What was convincing was that it was the one and only time he took the train to Pittsburgh. I think he wanted to spare me the gory details.

By the way, that train was called the Pittsburgher. Westbound it was PRR train 61. Eastbound it was PRR 60.

I would absolutely use that service for my business travel to NYC..... especially with the price gouging US Airways is about to impose.

 

[PRR 60]

In '69 it did it in 8:30 via the New York Subway (NYP - HAR in 3:16).

What subway? Don't tell me the NYC Subway system...

New York Subway is the name of a particular track at Zoo interlocking in Philadelphia that allows trains coming from New York to go directly onto the Main Line (towards Harrisburg) without going into 30th Street Station.

Thanks. Why is it called subway, though? Leaves lots of room for confusion.

Because it is a duck-under that goes through what is more or less a tunnel I think.

The PRR loved grade-seperated junctions, and Zoo (in Philadelphia) is a perfect example. The Pittsburgh Subway (and I think it is called the Pittsburgh Subway) is a duck-under track that allows trains heading to and from from the west to connect from and to the New York-bound NEC without having to cross any active tracks. In its day, PRR ran most of its western trains using the Subway. For those trains, the only stop in Philadelphia was North Philadelphia. Anyone desiring to travel west from 30th Street would have to use a suburban train to Paoli and board the western trains there. Even the elite PRR Broadway Limited stopped at Paoli.

Amtrak used the same routing in the early days. Then, as North Philadelphia became a security issue and was costing Amtrak's western trains Philadelphia ridership, they moved the Philadelphia train stop to 30th Street with the power-change, direction-change plan used today. About 15 years ago, one track and catenary in the Pittsburgh Subway was restored and a weekday Harrisburg to New York Keystone round trip was routed that way. Bypassing PHL and the power and direction change cut about 30 minutes off the HAR-NYP trip. The express train did not attract enough new riders to offset the loss of PHL business, so it was quickly dropped.

The Subway is still in service and is used to wye locomotives and trains.

 

[jis]

You're aright. It is indeed Pittsburgh Subway.