Supreme Court Rules that railroads must provide passenger service

[jis]

Wait, so why does Amtrak run the pensions for the freight RR's?

Because if Amtrak didn't pay the pensions of RR workers of the fallen flags, then those workers would have no retirement! I dunno if Amtrak still does that today though.

Many "fallen flags" were simply bought out by other freight railroads. Why shouldn't the buyer be responsible for the pensions?

So why shouldn't Amtrak be responsible for the pension of those that started working for Amtrak on Amtrak Day? Wasn't the entire idea of creating Amtrak to offload the cost of passenger operations onto it? Wouldn't that include pension obligations for those working for it?

So are you telling me that Amtrak only administers pensions for its own employees? That seems to contradict a lot of other comments in this and other threads.

I have no idea what you comprehend from what I have written and how you come to that interesting conclusion. However, you may wish to read a more elaborate description of the state of affairs in my posting above. Amtrak does not of course administer any pension. All railroad pensions are administered by the Railroad Retirement Board, an independent agency of the executive branch of the US federal government.

 

[jis]

Long story short.... it's yet another bloody mess created in an attempt to make something look like what it actually isn't. Actually Amtrak is merely being used as a conduit for a federal subsidy to the RRR pension fund through a contribution that is clearly identified separate from the actual subsidy to Amtrak, and Amtrak is not allowed to touch that money.

Alas, it's not all that clearly identified to the public, as all of that money continues to be counted as a subsidy to Amtrak. This has the wonderful affect of making Amtrak's total subsidies since inception look worse than it actually is.

It used to be much worse when the RRB contribution was lumped in with the operations subsidy. Now it is at least called out separately. Rightfully as a matter of transparency they should simply have the money allocated to Fed DoT to send on to the RRB, getting Amtrak out of the loop. But these are afterall our august representatives whose main qualification often seems to be their ability to obfuscate, so I am not holding my breath.

 

[steamtrain6868]

The issue today is diffrent but the case law remains the same.Freight railroads are "common carreirs" of both freight and passengers. This does not mean that they have to do it for nothing or at a loss. The problem is when a state or communter agency offers to pay the railroad for trackage rights and crew and run there own trains...The railroad can not say no or charge a obsene fee for that service as to gouge the agency. The legam remedy to this would be to seek a "Writ of Mandamus" compelling the RR to offer service or go to the Surface Transportation Board. The Writ of Madamus apllies because Railroads unlike other buisneses are quisi-govermental agencys and have goverment powers like rate making(a form of taxation)Police Protection and Eminate Domain.

 

[steamtrain6868]

How much out of the Billion or so Amtrak gets every year go to Penions for RR employees?

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

The issue today is diffrent but the case law remains the same.Freight railroads are "common carreirs" of both freight and passengers. This does not mean that they have to do it for nothing or at a loss. The problem is when a state or communter agency offers to pay the railroad for trackage rights and crew and run there own trains...The railroad can not say no or charge a obsene fee for that service as to gouge the agency. The legam remedy to this would be to seek a "Writ of Mandamus" compelling the RR to offer service or go to the Surface Transportation Board. The Writ of Madamus apllies because Railroads unlike other buisneses are quisi-govermental agencys and have goverment powers like rate making(a form of taxation)Police Protection and Eminate Domain.

No no no no no no no!

A writ of Mandamus (note the correct spelling) would interfere with our capitalist principles, in effect it would tell RRs "you gotta rum these trains even if you lose money,".

Furthermore the RRs are NOT "quasi-governmental" agencies or whatever you think they are... They are private corporations many of which are traded publicly on the NYSE. Nothing could be further from the truth, the case you quoted even says that Amtrak is a private, for profit, corporation! Amtrak, the least like the other class I RRs in North America is, in fact, according to SCOTUS, a for profit corporation! Now let's see you try and tell me that BNSF is a "quasi (again, spelling) governmental agency". Tell Warren Buffet that and maybe I'll listen to you.

 

[busboy]

How much out of the Billion or so Amtrak gets every year go to Penions for RR employees?

Probably most of it.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

How much out of the Billion or so Amtrak gets every year go to Penions for RR employees?

Probably most of it.

No way, most of the vast plurality goes to operation costs (not including employee compensation), then employee pay (which includes pensions, insurance, wage, ect) and then probably paying back private loans...

 

[George Harris]

How much out of the Billion or so Amtrak gets every year go to Penions for RR employees?

Probably most of it.

No way, most of the vast plurality goes to operation costs (not including employee compensation), then employee pay (which includes pensions, insurance, wage, ect) and then probably paying back private loans...

A thought: The main thing you get out of arguing with a fence post is splinters in your forehead.

 

[Shanghai]

Wait, so why does Amtrak run the pensions for the freight RR's?

Because if Amtrak didn't pay the pensions of RR workers of the fallen flags, then those workers would have no retirement!

I dunno if Amtrak still does that today though..

My company terminated the pension plans of all it's employees after a chapter 11 reorganization. I ended up with nothing. Now my tax money is paying for pensions of out of business freight railroad workers. You can probably see why this pisses me off just a little.

Your tax money has paid billions to the United Auto Workers pension funds for General Motors and Chrysler as

part of Obama's takeover of those companies. Fifty-five percent of the billions given to GM went into the

UAW pension fund!! I really shoud say that the billions Obama "borrowed" was paid to the UAW. Your children

and grandchildren will be forced to pay the bill.

 

I'm sorry that your company went into bankrupcy and you lost your pension. Do you have any claim on the

PBGC?

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Ignorance is th national pastime of America. Gross ignorance is is the pastime of Republicans. Ignorance and apathy regarding facts is the sole focus of the tea party; they do not know and don't care. Why do I bother trying to improve things?

 

[rrdude]

Because if you didn't, society would be worse off, and there would be fewer educated persons to rub shoulders with. As an educated member of society, you have a both a duty and an obligation to try and right errors and correct wrongs. And doing so in issues that are connected to one's passion, (in this case, generally, Amtrak) makes it worthwhile for both YOU, and all other parties involved.

I think I learn more "reading between the lines" than I do reading the actual typed words in these forums.

So please GML, even thou you and I have our differences of opinions, I read your posts with interest, and your enthusiasm is contagious, keep posting, on any topic!

 

[PRR 60]

Because if you didn't, society would be worse off, and there would be fewer educated persons to rub shoulders with. As an educated member of society, you have a both a duty and an obligation to try and right errors and correct wrongs. And doing so in issues that are connected to one's passion, (in this case, generally, Amtrak) makes it worthwhile for both YOU, and all other parties involved.

I think I learn more "reading between the lines" than I do reading the actual typed words in these forums.

So please GML, even thou you and I have our differences of opinions, I read your posts with interest, and your enthusiasm is contagious, keep posting, on any topic!

It is one of the things that makes it lively around here. I may not agree with everything, but I am entertained.

 

[jis]

No no no no no no no!

A writ of Mandamus (note the correct spelling) would interfere with our capitalist principles, in effect it would tell RRs "you gotta rum these trains even if you lose money,".

You're absolutely correct. Nobody will use a Writ of Mandamus for this. Even in allegedly more socialist countries (e.g. India, though India has much lower taxes on capital gains ) with similar laws, such is not acceptable. OTOH, the legislature at state or even federal level choosing to fund a specific service is quite acceptable. In countries like India it is actually quite amusing to watch one branch of the government arm-wrestle another (Indian Railways) to try to get them to do something that they (the Railways) don't want to do. Usually the requesting branch of government fails miserably at the end of the day.

 

[AlanB]

How much out of the Billion or so Amtrak gets every year go to Penions for RR employees?

Probably most of it.

No way, most of the vast plurality goes to operation costs (not including employee compensation), then employee pay (which includes pensions, insurance, wage, ect) and then probably paying back private loans...

When Amtrak first started IIRC it was over $300 Million annually. Last I knew it was somewhere between $100M to $150M annually and continuing to decrease with each passing year.

But still over Amtrak's 40 years, that accounts for a several billion dollars that critics are charging against Amtrak as a subsidy to Amtrak; potentially as much as $9B to $10B. I don't know the exact number.

 

[DET63]

Ignorance is th national pastime of America. Gross ignorance is is the pastime of Republicans. Ignorance and apathy regarding facts is the sole focus of the tea party; they do not know and don't care. Why do I bother trying to improve things?

I don't know what the Republicans or the Tea Party (at least GML doesn't call them teabaggers) have to do with this.

 

[Ryan]

Because they thrive on ignorance, the only way that they can get people to buy into their ridiculous notions is by willfully obscuring the facts.

Like, the fact that they referred to themselves as Teabaggers long before anyone else did.

 

[PRR 60]

I finally have the straight story about Amtrak RR Retirement payments, and it's not exactly what I thought.

The Railroad Retirement Fund, like Social Security, gets payments from today's employees (and their employer railroads) to pay today's retirees. Is is not a savings account paid today for future retirements. Like Social Security, both railroad employees and employers pay into the fund, with railroads paying over 16% of wages (up to a maximum annual salary) into the fund. Those payments are then made to railroad retirees.

When Amtrak started back back in 1971, Amtrak had no retirees. It was just starting. The established railroads, in business for over 100 years, had an entire generation of retirees. Yet Amtrak still had to pay its share - 16% of wages - into the fund even though the fund was, at that point, not paying for benefits to any Amtrak retirees (because there were none). Amtrak claimed that was unfair: that the payments being made by Amtrak into the retirement fund were lowering the cost for the legacy railroads by helping to pay their retirees pensions. They felt that a large portion of the annual Amtrak subsidy from the Federal government was not helping run trains. It was going right back to the Feds to pay for pensions of people who never worked at Amtrak. They are probably right about that, but it is not really any different than a start-up business paying into Social Security while having no former employees collecting Social Security.

Back in 1997, Amtrak estimated that it overpaid the Railroad Retirement Fund by about $120 million compared to the cost were Amtrak to have funded a pension fund just for Amtrak retirees. At that point, Amtrak had existed for 26 years. Now, 14 years later (with Amtrak weeks away from its 40th year in existence), things should be leveling off for Amtrak and payments into the RR Retirement fund. The initial generation of Amtrak employees have, or will soon be retiring (including those who came to Amtrak after years of work at other railroads). Soon, Amtrak will have a full generation of retirees with pensions, so the demographics between Amtrak and the freight railroads will be similar. Amtrak will be paying the same per employee to support a comparable number or retirees. In the meantime, it is an interesting argument.

 

[GlobalistPotato]

Ignorance is th national pastime of America. Gross ignorance is is the pastime of Republicans. Ignorance and apathy regarding facts is the sole focus of the tea party; they do not know and don't care. Why do I bother trying to improve things?

I don't know what the Republicans or the Tea Party (at least GML doesn't call them teabaggers) have to do with this.

Kasich. Walker. 'nuff said.

 

[ACVitale]

I finally have the straight story about Amtrak RR Retirement payments, and it's not exactly what I thought.

The Railroad Retirement Fund, like Social Security, gets payments from today's employees (and their employer railroads) to pay today's retirees. Is is not a savings account paid today for future retirements. Like Social Security, both railroad employees and employers pay into the fund, with railroads paying over 16% of wages (up to a maximum annual salary) into the fund. Those payments are then made to railroad retirees.

When Amtrak started back back in 1971, Amtrak had no retirees. It was just starting. The established railroads, in business for over 100 years, had an entire generation of retirees. Yet Amtrak still had to pay its share - 16% of wages - into the fund even though the fund was, at that point, not paying for benefits to any Amtrak retirees (because there were none). Amtrak claimed that was unfair: that the payments being made by Amtrak into the retirement fund were lowering the cost for the legacy railroads by helping to pay their retirees pensions. They felt that a large portion of the annual Amtrak subsidy from the Federal government was not helping run trains. It was going right back to the Feds to pay for pensions of people who never worked at Amtrak. They are probably right about that, but it is not really any different than a start-up business paying into Social Security while having no former employees collecting Social Security.

Back in 1997, Amtrak estimated that it overpaid the Railroad Retirement Fund by about $120 million compared to the cost were Amtrak to have funded a pension fund just for Amtrak retirees. At that point, Amtrak had existed for 26 years. Now, 14 years later (with Amtrak weeks away from its 40th year in existence), things should be leveling off for Amtrak and payments into the RR Retirement fund. The initial generation of Amtrak employees have, or will soon be retiring (including those who came to Amtrak after years of work at other railroads). Soon, Amtrak will have a full generation of retirees with pensions, so the demographics between Amtrak and the freight railroads will be similar. Amtrak will be paying the same per employee to support a comparable number or retirees. In the meantime, it is an interesting argument.

Finally a straight answer. Not what many on the forum have indicated but, certainly not great either. Seems like another sacrifice made to scratch together a national passenger train system in the darkest days of passenger railroads.