Superliner III cars

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The only sane way for Amtrak to use older equipment- and they have discussed this before- is if VIA rail discontinues its long-distance trains. If that happens, the VIA Budd cars would probably be on the market and ideal for Amtrak's needs.
Otherwise, we have to buy new equipment. The old equipment isn't standardized enough to justify.

I'd say that ordering 25 diners, dorms, lounges, 50 coach-baggages, 60 sleepers, and 50 coaches would cover it. 185 cars. Gives 10 more sleepers for consist expansion, eliminates most baggage cars from Superliner trains, and gives you 25 more Superliner sets of dorm, 2 sleepers, diner, lounge, coach-bag, 2 coaches.

Also Viewliners: 29 diners, 30 lounges and baggage-dorms, 40 sleepers, 50 baggage cars, 150 coaches. 299 cars. Gives you baggage cars for various purposes and a total of 30 Viewliner sets consisting of bag-dorm, 3 sleepers, diner, lounge, 5 coaches.

I'd also order about 100 bi-level coach cars, 50 bi-level business class cars, and 50 bi-level snack-coaches for use on Midwest corridor trains. 200 cars. I'd order 50 MP40s to go with them, and relegate the P42s to servicing the long-distance trains.

Total is 684 cars, figure total cost at about... $2 billion? Plus about $100 million for the locomotives. And about $300 million for an order of 50 AEM-9s (Amtrak spec ALP-46as built here) So when everything is over, a total of about 2.5 billion would get this massive fleet expansion done.

Ok. Then what else? Many of the posters (me included) have wondered about reinstating old routes, maybe they should plan for those cars as well. Since I have limited knowledge about all the old routes, I don't know how many there were & how many more cars would be needed if Amtrak decided to start any of them up again.
Well, this would add about 10 Viewliner trainsets. If you judiciously apply this, you can bring back 3 long distance trains (the Broadway, the Silver Palm, and one other of your choosing) plus reinstate the Twilight Shoreliner.

It also gives you 25 more Superliner sets. This would allow for a Floridian, a Desert Wind, a Pioneer, and a daily Sunset, all full service. If you reduce the Desert Wind and Pioneer to sections of the CZ, you could also get a Texas Chief and maybe even a North Coast Hiawatha out of this.
So it sounds like Amtrak could on paper conceivably pull that off. If Amtrak uses the $$$$$ wisely.....Hopefully it will work out!

One question though. Can you describe the difference between a Bi-Level & a Superliner please? Thanks!
 
Well, this would add about 10 Viewliner trainsets. If you judiciously apply this, you can bring back 3 long distance trains (the Broadway, the Silver Palm, and one other of your choosing) plus reinstate the Twilight Shoreliner.
It also gives you 25 more Superliner sets. This would allow for a Floridian, a Desert Wind, a Pioneer, and a daily Sunset, all full service. If you reduce the Desert Wind and Pioneer to sections of the CZ, you could also get a Texas Chief and maybe even a North Coast Hiawatha out of this.
So it sounds like Amtrak could on paper conceivably pull that off. If Amtrak uses the $$$$$ wisely.....Hopefully it will work out!

One question though. Can you describe the difference between a Bi-Level & a Superliner please? Thanks!
A superliner is a type of bi-level. I was suggesting it would be a bi-level car (a car having two levels) but not of Superliner design. The Surfliners and California Cars are also bi-levels.
 
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So it sounds like Amtrak could on paper conceivably pull that off. If Amtrak uses the $$$$$ wisely.....Hopefully it will work out!
One question though. Can you describe the difference between a Bi-Level & a Superliner please? Thanks!
A superliner is a type of bi-level. I was suggesting it would be a bi-level car (a car having two levels) but not of Superliner design. The Surfliners and California Cars are also bi-levels.

Oh, ok. I've seen a pano of the surfliner-it looked nice. I thought a bi-level may have different features than a superliner because of the name difference.
 
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I just had a kind of wild thought. What would the trainset requirements be to turn Palmetto back into Palm ( i.e., with sleepers) and extend it, via JAX, not to the south, but to NOL as a daily? It would bridge the missing south transcon route and connect with Star and Meteor at Jax to cover the rest of Florida, and for pax between, say, NOL and CHS, or whatever. It would also give you a second NYP-NOL train. Later, add a JAX-MIA on the FEC tracks.
 
I just had a kind of wild thought. What would the trainset requirements be to turn Palmetto back into Palm ( i.e., with sleepers) and extend it, via JAX, not to the south, but to NOL as a daily? It would bridge the missing south transcon route and connect with Star and Meteor at Jax to cover the rest of Florida, and for pax between, say, NOL and CHS, or whatever. It would also give you a second NYP-NOL train. Later, add a JAX-MIA on the FEC tracks.

Now I LIKE that idea!!!!!
 
More equipment then they are considering ordering.
No, Amtrak is ordering more than enough sleepers and diners to field such a train. Frankly the biggest problem would be finding Amfleet II's, which most likely would have to be pulled off say the Maple Leaf or the Adirondack.
 
I just had a kind of wild thought. What would the trainset requirements be to turn Palmetto back into Palm ( i.e., with sleepers) and extend it, via JAX, not to the south, but to NOL as a daily? It would bridge the missing south transcon route and connect with Star and Meteor at Jax to cover the rest of Florida, and for pax between, say, NOL and CHS, or whatever. It would also give you a second NYP-NOL train. Later, add a JAX-MIA on the FEC tracks.

Now I LIKE that idea!!!!!
While it would restore service over that corridor, it would probably the least successful way to do things. There is a much bigger market I believe to be had by extending the City of NOL than by turning the Palmetto west at JAX.

And frankly Amtrak would improve revenues considerably more by just restoring the Silver Palm back to its original route, than it would by turning the train west at JAX. Better to bring the CONL or some other trains east from NOL and increase that train's revenues too.
 
So it sounds like Amtrak could on paper conceivably pull that off. If Amtrak uses the $$$$$ wisely.....Hopefully it will work out!
One question though. Can you describe the difference between a Bi-Level & a Superliner please? Thanks!
A superliner is a type of bi-level. I was suggesting it would be a bi-level car (a car having two levels) but not of Superliner design. The Surfliners and California Cars are also bi-levels.
Oh, ok. I've seen a pano of the surfliner-it looked nice. I thought a bi-level may have different features than a superliner because of the name difference.
Superliners and Surfliner/California cars, though both bi-levels and operationally compatible, do indeed have different features and are designed for different purposes. Surfliner/California cars are for corridor service (Surfliners, San Joaquins, Capitols), while Superliners are intended primarily for long distance. It's not unusual to see a Superliner coach in a Surfliner consist, but vice versa is pretty rare, if it happens at all.

Neither type should be confused with commuter (Metrolink, Caltrain, Metra, et al) bi-levels, multi-levels, or gallery cars, which are completely different animals.
 
So it sounds like Amtrak could on paper conceivably pull that off. If Amtrak uses the $$$$$ wisely.....Hopefully it will work out!
One question though. Can you describe the difference between a Bi-Level & a Superliner please? Thanks!
A superliner is a type of bi-level. I was suggesting it would be a bi-level car (a car having two levels) but not of Superliner design. The Surfliners and California Cars are also bi-levels.
Oh, ok. I've seen a pano of the surfliner-it looked nice. I thought a bi-level may have different features than a superliner because of the name difference.
Superliners and Surfliner/California cars, though both bi-levels and operationally compatible, do indeed have different features and are designed for different purposes. Surfliner/California cars are for corridor service (Surfliners, San Joaquins, Capitols), while Superliners are intended primarily for long distance. It's not unusual to see a Superliner coach in a Surfliner consist, but vice versa is pretty rare, if it happens at all.

Neither type should be confused with commuter (Metrolink, Caltrain, Metra, et al) bi-levels, multi-levels, or gallery cars, which are completely different animals.
theres a video on youtube were SWC number 3 has a surfliner car on the tail end.
 
So it sounds like Amtrak could on paper conceivably pull that off. If Amtrak uses the $$$$$ wisely.....Hopefully it will work out!
One question though. Can you describe the difference between a Bi-Level & a Superliner please? Thanks!
A superliner is a type of bi-level. I was suggesting it would be a bi-level car (a car having two levels) but not of Superliner design. The Surfliners and California Cars are also bi-levels.
Oh, ok. I've seen a pano of the surfliner-it looked nice. I thought a bi-level may have different features than a superliner because of the name difference.
Superliners and Surfliner/California cars, though both bi-levels and operationally compatible, do indeed have different features and are designed for different purposes. Surfliner/California cars are for corridor service (Surfliners, San Joaquins, Capitols), while Superliners are intended primarily for long distance. It's not unusual to see a Superliner coach in a Surfliner consist, but vice versa is pretty rare, if it happens at all.

Neither type should be confused with commuter (Metrolink, Caltrain, Metra, et al) bi-levels, multi-levels, or gallery cars, which are completely different animals.
theres a video on youtube were SWC number 3 has a surfliner car on the tail end.

Probably coming from maintinence at Beech Grove.

cpamtfan-Peter
 
I just had a kind of wild thought. What would the trainset requirements be to turn Palmetto back into Palm ( i.e., with sleepers) and extend it, via JAX, not to the south, but to NOL as a daily? It would bridge the missing south transcon route and connect with Star and Meteor at Jax to cover the rest of Florida, and for pax between, say, NOL and CHS, or whatever. It would also give you a second NYP-NOL train. Later, add a JAX-MIA on the FEC tracks.

Now I LIKE that idea!!!!!
While it would restore service over that corridor, it would probably the least successful way to do things. There is a much bigger market I believe to be had by extending the City of NOL than by turning the Palmetto west at JAX.

And frankly Amtrak would improve revenues considerably more by just restoring the Silver Palm back to its original route, than it would by turning the train west at JAX. Better to bring the CONL or some other trains east from NOL and increase that train's revenues too.
Alan, I understand completely, I was just being selfish because I have to travel from Tallahassee to D.C. several times a year on business and that would be a great way to go!! Greg
 
I think the next Amtrak cars should look like this:
Colorado Rail Car is dead. They are dead for damned good reasons, the main one being their products are junk.

A dome coach like that wouldn't work for Amtrak, and it wouldn't work for overnight operations.
 
I think the next Amtrak cars should look like this:
Colorado Rail Car is dead. They are dead for damned good reasons, the main one being their products are junk.

A dome coach like that wouldn't work for Amtrak, and it wouldn't work for overnight operations.
It'd work on the CZ. Probably on the CS and EB, too. (Height issues may pose a problem in CHI, though--they're 18'6", necessary because the bottom floor is a full floor, not a half floor below the level of the trucks like current Superliners. Not sure what the clearance height is in CHI, especially if they have to cross under any Metra Electric catenary.)

As far as Colorado Railcar's products being junk: I've heard you say bad things about their DMUs, but I've never seen any testimony from you or anyone (that I can recall, anyway) to any lack of quality with their standard non-powered cars. I certainly haven't heard anyone at the ARR complain about them, and they're one of the largest users of that company's equipment.

Of course, anything not built by Budd using shot welding is crap to you, so I always have to take your statements with a grain of salt...
 
I think the next Amtrak cars should look like this:
Colorado Rail Car is dead. They are dead for damned good reasons, the main one being their products are junk.

A dome coach like that wouldn't work for Amtrak, and it wouldn't work for overnight operations.

Awww, GML, you're taking the fun out of things.. :lol: I'm sure if there's a will, there's a way. It would be real nice though...Probably not high on the list for cars but it would be great for the EB, CZ,CS and numerous other routes that have beautiful scenery.
 
It'd work on the CZ. Probably on the CS and EB, too. (Height issues may pose a problem in CHI, though--they're 18'6", necessary because the bottom floor is a full floor, not a half floor below the level of the trucks like current Superliners. Not sure what the clearance height is in CHI, especially if they have to cross under any Metra Electric catenary.)
The needs of an overnight train include cool coaches and blocking out moving light, both central to environments conducive to sleeping. The dome would make an awesome lounge and even an awesome diner. But not a coach.

As far as Colorado Railcar's products being junk: I've heard you say bad things about their DMUs, but I've never seen any testimony from you or anyone (that I can recall, anyway) to any lack of quality with their standard non-powered cars. I certainly haven't heard anyone at the ARR complain about them, and they're one of the largest users of that company's equipment.
Of course, anything not built by Budd using shot welding is crap to you, so I always have to take your statements with a grain of salt...
There's a reason stainless steel and aluminum are the materials of choice for building rail cars for just about every railroad in the world besides the Alaska. Carbon steel, as used by CRC, is relatively weak and corosion prone. To build a plausible product with it, therefore, you have to use a lot of it. As a result, cars using it are much heavier than Aluminum or stainless cars. Look at the weight specs of the CRC cars. That CRC coach weighs about 25 tons more than a comparable Superliner lounge.

In addition, the Superliners non-full floor design allows for components to be placed in such a way as to give the car a low center of gravity. In fact, the Superliner's COG is lower than even the Amfleet's. The CRC double-deckers have a very high center of gravity, and are uncomfortable with crosswinds, nor are they good at speed. Running them on the SWC at 90 mph would be a seriously bad idea.

So compared to the Superliner design, you trade 25 tons of weight, reduced durability, and a higher center of gravity for a 1/3 car worth of floor space. That means on a weight basis, the CRC car has less capacity per ton, because 4 Superliners would have more floor space than 3 CRCs, but weigh about the same.

The CRCs are perfect for what Rader succeeded at: low-speed tourist trains. They are not transit cars, nor intercity cars. They are tourist cars.

If you keep them painted, as I am sure ARR does, they'll last ok. Amtrak can't even keep their own livery unfaded on their cars. These things would be rusting hulks in 5 years of Amtrak service.

I admire Budd's designs because for American railroads nothing is better suited. I admire their products because the build quality is nonpareil. I also admire TALGOs products for their damned good build quality and impressive engineering. I have no admiration for CRCs overweight dinosaurs. Their engineering is flawed, their materials are poorly chosen. They are reasonably well screwed together, I'll give them that, but the materials are still illsuited and they won't last long on Amtrak. They are technically inept.

CRCs are designed to impress the passenger, with little thought given to engineering, operations, or usage. That's why their DMUs are sluggish, useless, overweight, and underpowered. That's why their cars are top-heavy, overweight, and over sized.
 
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