Station or Terminal

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me_little_me said:
AmtrakBlue said:
niemi24s said:
If buses have stops why can't trains have 'em too? :blink:
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We call those Amshacks ;)
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Was NYP. Now NYA - New York Amshack?

Might become NYP again if they ever get going on the Farley Building.
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There off to a start...have you been in the new west end corridor yet? Entrances go right under the Post Office building at 31st and 33rd street corners...

.I was amazed at all the unused space in those entryways....considering the commercial value of Manhattan real estate, surprised at the 'wasteful' design.....
 
jis said:
This specific use of terminal seems to be predominantly an American English thing. Having long discussions about it every so often and harassing hapless normal people about it, is an American Railfan thing :p
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I agree that the distinction is largely confined to American English. In London, the various termini, despite all having stub end tracks (at least until the completion of Crossrail next year), are all referred to as stations, such as Victoria station or Waterloo station. That being said, the actual fare tables do use the term London Terminals, and the city's main bus station is the Victoria Coach Terminal. (As a side note, under American Railfan convention, the last station on the Heathrow Express would be the Heathrow Terminal 5 Terminal, at least until the completion of the Western Rail Approach to Heathrow in 2024).
 
denmarks said:
Grand Central Terminal

New Orleans Union Passenger Terminal

Pennsylvania Station

Chicago Union Station

Los Angeles Union Station

Emeryville Station (I guess this can be both)

King Street Station
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Technically, a terminal is a station that has stub-end tracks. So, all those names are correct (sort of)

Grand Central Terminal - stub end

New Orleans Union Passenger Terminal - stub end

Pennsylvania Station - through trains come from NJ side and go to Boston side

Chicago Union Station - one track runs through from south to north concourse

Los Angeles Union Station - stub end so should be terminal, but has "through" trains from San Diego to Santa Barbara etc that reverse in and out

Emeryville Station - no stub, through tracks to Oakland/Sacramento

King Street Station - no stub, through tracks to Portland/Vancouver
 
Of course, Houston Union Station (built 1911, during the glory days) was always referred to as a "station" but by design it was a stub-end terminal.
 
Penn Station actually has six platform tracks that cannot be used as through tracks (1-4, 20-21). 1-4 actually have buffer stops and 21-21 run through to the LIRR Yard. The North River Tunnels are not accessible from those two tracks directly. The other 15 can be, though there are another three (17-19) that are almost never used as through tracks leaving about twelve or so that are.

And then there are stations like Miami, San Diego, Brunswick, St. Albans etc. that are not know as particularly anything Station or Terminal, but I suppose if push comes to shove they would be called Station in the real world.

Coming to think of it, most stations where passenger service terminates (at a buffer stop) I think are just called station if we take into consideration all passenger train stations in the US, not just Amtrak, into consideration. A Terminal seems to have to be a rather large station where all trains terminate at a buffer stop.
 
railiner said:
the_traveler said:
Technically, a Terminal has stub end tracks (no possible run thru trains). That's why in NYC it's Grand Central TERMINAL and Pennsylvania STATION. Chigago could almost be a Terminal, but track 28 runs thru from the south gates to the north gates - thus it is a Station.

Actually, LA could be called a Terminal - until the run thru track is built.
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Grand Central Terminal does have a couple of "loop" tracks that allow a train to turn around without having to back out...so does that make it not a totally stub end Terminal? :)

Probably not, since the trains may leave from a different track then they arrive at, but ultimately must travel over the same route they arrived from....
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Well, in principle you could have a train arrive from say Albany into NYG make a platform stop to drop off and pick up passengers and then loop one of the loop tracks and head out to New Haven/Boston without stopping again at the outbound platform. But I am not sure this has ever been done in real life.
 
I doubt that trolley tracks count towards deciding whether a station is a station or a terminal though, unless of course the trolley runs through onto the Main Line. I don;t think such happens anywhere in the US. In Europe they have things call Tram-Trains where such run through does happen at some places.
 
trainman74 said:
the_traveler said:
San Diego is the Santa Fe Station...
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Santa Fe Depot, actually, just to confuse everyone still reading this thread.
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In addition to Santa Fe's surf line to Los Angeles, the San Diego depot also served the San Diego & Arizona Eastern (S. P. system) which ran from San Diego south and east to Calexico via Tijuana and Tecate (with through cars to Yuma and east). In addition, for a time Santa Fe itself also continued to provide passenger service south of the San Diego station to National City, near the naval base.
 
jis said:
I doubt that trolley tracks count towards deciding whether a station is a station or a terminal though, unless of course the trolley runs through onto the Main Line. I don;t think such happens anywhere in the US. In Europe they have things call Tram-Trains where such run through does happen at some places.
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Not just trolley tracks, at San Diego's Amtrak station, conventional "mainline" tracks continue further south too, to a pretty big yard some couple miles down under Coronado Bridge.
 
Texan Eagle said:
jis said:
I doubt that trolley tracks count towards deciding whether a station is a station or a terminal though, unless of course the trolley runs through onto the Main Line. I don;t think such happens anywhere in the US. In Europe they have things call Tram-Trains where such run through does happen at some places.
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Not just trolley tracks, at San Diego's Amtrak station, conventional "mainline" tracks continue further south too, to a pretty big yard some couple miles down under Coronado Bridge.
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And that's National City.
 
jis said:
railiner said:
the_traveler said:
Technically, a Terminal has stub end tracks (no possible run thru trains). That's why in NYC it's Grand Central TERMINAL and Pennsylvania STATION. Chigago could almost be a Terminal, but track 28 runs thru from the south gates to the north gates - thus it is a Station.

Actually, LA could be called a Terminal - until the run thru track is built.
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Grand Central Terminal does have a couple of "loop" tracks that allow a train to turn around without having to back out...so does that make it not a totally stub end Terminal? :) Probably not, since the trains may leave from a different track then they arrive at, but ultimately must travel over the same route they arrived from....
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Well, in principle you could have a train arrive from say Albany into NYG make a platform stop to drop off and pick up passengers and then loop one of the loop tracks and head out to New Haven/Boston without stopping again at the outbound platform. But I am not sure this has ever been done in real life.
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No, I don't think so either...maybe some special like a Turbo Train on exhibition tour, or the like.... but they still had to go back out the north end of the Terminal until reaching Mott Haven in the Bronx...
 
Well, trains have been turned using the loop and still some do perhaps. But when they do they stop both upon arrival and after going around the loop. My point was that if someone wanted to run a through service from Albany to New Haven, they could do so making just a single stop at GCT.
 
neroden said:
All Terminals are Stations. Not all Stations are Terminals.

A Terminal is really defined by stub-end tracks with buffer stops.

That said, some terminals have been converted into through stations later and retained the "terminal" name.
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I think this is the best explanation. I'd like to add terminals often had crews assigned to assist with the movement and positioning of equipment. Remember, push pull trains didn't always exist and railroads didn't always have a locomotive on each end. A lot of "stations" are actually listed as terminals in the employee timetable.

Washington Union station is Washington Terminal, Springfield Union Station in Mass is Springfield Terminal and used to sit in the Springfield Terminal District. New York is in the New York terminal district. The same goes for Richmond.
 
Thirdrail7 said:
neroden said:
All Terminals are Stations. Not all Stations are Terminals.

A Terminal is really defined by stub-end tracks with buffer stops.

That said, some terminals have been converted into through stations later and retained the "terminal" name.
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I think this is the best explanation. I'd like to add terminals often had crews assigned to assist with the movement and positioning of equipment. Remember, push pull trains didn't always exist and railroads didn't always have a locomotive on each end. A lot of "stations" are actually listed as terminals in the employee timetable.

Washington Union station is Washington Terminal, Springfield Union Station in Mass is Springfield Terminal and used to sit in the Springfield Terminal District. New York is in the New York terminal district. The same goes for Richmond.
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This definition based on functional activities at a "station" to characterize it as a Terminal, rather than worrying about buffer stops makes much more sense.
 
zepherdude said:
I grew up in St. Louis, so it was always Union Station. Trains are always stations. Airports are terminals. I can not explain why.
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And yet, having worked for an airline, we tend to refer to our operation at an airport as a station. Our head person at an airport was the "station manager" whereas the the "airport manager" was used for the airport operator's head person. As for "terminal", that was just part of an airport (e.g. "Terminal One"). When I went to an airport for a meeting with station personnel, that was a "station visit".
 

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