St. Paul, Milwaukee, Chicago (TCMC) second daily service

[west point]

Have worries about seat allocations especially MKE <> CHI. Will there be reservations and will reservations be open for all station pairs? Could MKE <> CHI riders limit sales north of MKE especially Weekends traffic to CHI from MKE? How about a drop off car(s) at MKE? Since train numbers are just a 1 in front of present train numbers could Amtrak just plan to attach 333 & 340 to rear of train and sell it if too many ridders north of MKE?

Am just hoping Amtrak does not do something stupid to limit riders. As well anytime EB #8 is more than 3 hours late at MSP many of the EB riders MSP and south will want to take 1340.

 

[Harmon Shay]

I'm wondering if and how they're going to add and subtract cars in Milwaukee. I can't believe they can afford to send all five coaches to and from the Twin Cities.

 

[Harmon Shay]

They could indeed use Amfleet club-dinettes. I'm just used to Seattle being an all-Horizon base for the Cascades, no Amfleets at all.

 

[WWW]

I'm wondering if and how they're going to add and subtract cars in Milwaukee. I can't believe they can afford to send all five coaches to and from the Twin Cities.

Don't discount the boarding traffic at Milwaukee and other Empire Builder stops destined for MSP.
Yes there will be off days when the Borealis will not be anywhere near capacity.
And look around the corner - the airlines are cutting reducing service to small Wisconsin cities -
the train fares are indeed very competitive with former air travel and almost beating the plane
city-center to city center and none of that TSA security adding stress to the travel.

 

[OmahaRoad]

Are all 4 Horizon cars just coaches (maybe 1 a cafe) what about a baggage car ?

All I know is what this post said! I sure as heck hope that this refers to, as you said, 4 Horizon COACHES plus the cafe or cafe/business car (one of which is confirmed to be part of the consist). If it's only 3 coaches, Amtrak and the state partners really, awfully goofed on this. I mean, the demand will probably be so high that they'd end up being forced to add a coach anyway...but they don't need a self-own on this.

 

[Harmon Shay]

It's just that I don't think they are going to have enough Horizon coaches to create two additional five-coach trainsets for the Borealis. I suppose one thing they might do is keep the current two Hiawatha sets as they are and create two new trainsets with two or three coaches each (plus food service cars) to equip the Borealis, then simply combine and separate them from the Hiawatha sets in Milwaukee much as they do with the Empire Builder Seattle and Portland sections in Spokane. The Borealis might or might not be a bidirectional train.

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

The MSP train will likely be a normal Hiawatha consist with a locomotive or NPCU on each end and 5 cars. The Hiawatha has sometimes run with an unstaffed cafe car, so the only difference would be that the MSP consists would have to have one such car and they will need to be split cafe/business class cars.

The current Hiawatha weekday schedule is 7 daily round trips, requiring 2 consists which each make 3.5 daily round trips. The MSP train will require 2 additional trainsets. However, to make the turns work without requiring a 5th consist or deadhead moves between Milwaukee and Chicago, the MSP consists will each have to make at least one additional Hiawatha trip per day. If the two MSP consists were captive, there would be no consist in Milwaukee for the 1:05 PM Hiawatha departure to Chicago, as that train turns from the NB trip that will now be continuing to MSP.

It is possible with the new schedule to continue having up to two captive Hiawatha sets, which could potentially allow the continued use of Venture cars and Charger locomotives on the route without sending them beyond Milwaukee. The 8:05 AM departure from Milwaukee and 8:05 PM departure from Chicago will need to be turns from the MSP trips (assuming they are aiming to keep it to four consists total), but the remaining Hiawatha trips could all be served by the captive Hiawatha consists if so desired.

There will not be enough time in the schedule for any adding/removing of cars in Milwaukee.

 

[WWW]

It's just that I don't think they are going to have enough Horizon coaches to create two additional five-coach trainsets for the Borealis. I suppose one thing they might do is keep the current two Hiawatha sets as they are and create two new trainsets with two or three coaches each (plus food service cars) to equip the Borealis, then simply combine and separate them from the Hiawatha sets in Milwaukee much as they do with the Empire Builder Seattle and Portland sections in Spokane. The Borealis might or might not be a bidirectional train.

At its origin/destination (Chicago-St Paul) there is no need for the push pull consist.
There is plenty of WYE turn around space to work with and time to turn the train for the next day service.
No need for adding or reduction of cars causing delay in scheduling.
Hope Amtrak keeps this simple !

 

[user535733]

I mean, the demand will probably be so high that they'd end up being forced to add a coach anyway...but they don't need a self-own on this.

At the Wisconsin Association of Rail Passengers meeting in April 2024, the Wisconsin DOT speaker mentioned that they already monitor daily ridership of each Wisconsin-sponsored train, and have been successful at getting Amtrak to add coaches in the recent past.

 

[diesteldorf]

Thanks Jis for posting the announcement and to others, including WWW for sharing timetable information. Yesterday I called AGR and switched all future trips for May, July, August and September to 1333 or 1340 Business Class.

The upcharge is reasonable, though it can also fluctuate, and Labor Day weekend is a killer compared to my other dates. Still, it is a cheaper alternative than sleeper and should be nicer than riding coach. I'll miss the EB and may still ride it from time to time, but the schedule, and hopefully on-time performance is much more convenient and consistant.

I paid for May, July, August, September to lock it in and because it'll be a new experience but it does potentially add some additional value to the AGR card and any upgrade coupons I may receive.

I don't really want to cancel and reapply for the no-fee card, so using AGR for the 20% off cafe purchases and upgrades to Business Class is a way to recoup some value. The 20% off cafe purchases worked for the EB too, but was useless in sleeper and it was not always convenient to hit the cafe on the superliner. I am hoping the club dinette cars on 1333/1340 make it easier.

 

[lordsigma]

At its origin/destination (Chicago-St Paul) there is no need for the push pull consist.
There is plenty of WYE turn around space to work with and time to turn the train for the next day service.
No need for adding or reduction of cars causing delay in scheduling.
Hope Amtrak keeps this simple !

I believe the equipment and crew for this train will be based at the former Midway Station property. For the west bound train after detraining passengers at Union Depot the train will continue to Midway Station where it will be wyed and stored on one of the station tracks there.

UPDATE: My information was outdated and thus inaccurate please disregard.

 

[OmahaRoad]

I believe the equipment and crew for this train will be based at the former Midway Station property. For the west bound train after detraining passengers at Union Depot the train will continue to Midway Station where it will be wyed and stored on one of the station tracks there.

That's not correct, though I wish it were (better storage location), it is being stored and serviced at Union Depot; if you look back in this thread I believe some of us were discussing this in March. Ramsey County had to approve a new lease and operating agreement with Amtrak that included the agreements around where and how the train will be stored. Stuff as specific as where dumpsters will be located near the tracks, Amtrak access, etc.

 

[jis]

That's not correct, though I wish it were (better storage location), it is being stored and serviced at Union Depot; if you look back in this thread I believe some of us were discussing this in March. Ramsey County had to approve a new lease and operating agreement with Amtrak that included the agreements around where and how the train will be stored. Stuff as specific as where dumpsters will be located near the tracks, Amtrak access, etc.

Yeah, storage on station track 2 at SPUD. Use the Wye just east of the station. I understand all those switches have been upgraded to remote controlled from hand thrown to make this operation efficient.

 

[NEPATrainTraveler]

Glad that people needing to go from CHI to MSP will have another option. If the Borealis keeps being an all Horizon consist, I may just use it instead of the Hiawatha to get to MKE in order to avoid the Venture cars. Would probably ride at least one way in Business Class just to check that out.

 

[CHImdw1522]

I booked the first trip from Chicago to St. Paul on May 21, 2024. I will be in business class.

Why not? How often do I get to ride on an inaugural run? I hope they do something at Union Station to celebrate the first run.

 

[WWW]

Yeah, storage on station track 2 at SPUD. Use the Wye just east of the station. I understand all those switches have been upgraded to remote controlled from hand thrown to make this operation efficient.

At SPUD there are two tracks for two trains to be serviced simultaneously.
In the unlikely event of the EB 7 & 8 are both delayed at MSP -
there is a dead end track that the Borealis could use extending to the Union Depot Rail View and Picnic area -

Reference Google map:
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9506842,-93.0775952,238m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu

Zooom it IN-OUT for more less detail - - -

This is the same spur track that the Milwaukee 261 uses for the North Pole Express.
Easily could handle a locomotive and 4-5 coach cars

Alternative to this:
UP yard (formerly used by NSP High Bridge Plant coal operation)
CP Pigs Eye yard
and the previous referenced Commercial Rail Midway yard

It is not an impossible situation and all the stars planets eclipses would have to aline with
a 50 foot flood stage of the Mississippi river to cancel this out !
Good golly lets get this 2nd train up and running and work out any kinks as they happen.

 

[diesteldorf]

I want Borealis to do well and succeed, and will probably book regardless because the schedule is more conducive than riding the EB, especially when the EB often encounters delays. However, I was checking random days for MSP to CHI in February/March 2025. The EB was offering value or flex for $41 or $44..
Borealis was charging $95 or more for coach.

It'll be interesting if this drives more families to ride the EB due to cost.

 

[jis]

At SPUD there are two tracks for two trains to be serviced simultaneously.
In the unlikely event of the EB 7 & 8 are both delayed at MSP -
there is a dead end track that the Borealis could use extending to the Union Depot Rail View and Picnic area -

Reference Google map:
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9506842,-93.0775952,238m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu

Yeah a 485' train would fit nice and snug in the 500' or so siding. But it will not be able to handle a train with one more car unless it is lengthened. There is space to lengthen it.

In any case, I am sure Amtrak has a working plan about where they will store the train overnight. I was just stating what I had heard is the plan going in. Of course they could change as realities strike too.

 

[diesteldorf]

I booked the first trip from Chicago to St. Paul on May 21, 2024. I will be in business class.

Why not? How often do I get to ride on an inaugural run? I hope they do something at Union Station to celebrate the first run.

I'll be anxious to hear what you have to say. They used to allow Business Class passengers to visit the Metropolitan Lounge in Chicago, but removed that perk 1-2 years ago.

It'll be interesting if they bring that back, at least temporarily, to encourage more people to book business class. However, I could see some complaining from those that ride the Lincoln/Michigan trains.

MSP has a lounge also and I think there is a better chance they would give access to business class passengers but it doesn't offer nearly the same amenities as Chicago.

 

[Septa9739]

It's just that I don't think they are going to have enough Horizon coaches to create two additional five-coach trainsets for the Borealis. I suppose one thing they might do is keep the current two Hiawatha sets as they are and create two new trainsets with two or three coaches each (plus food service cars) to equip the Borealis, then simply combine and separate them from the Hiawatha sets in Milwaukee much as they do with the Empire Builder Seattle and Portland sections in Spokane. The Borealis might or might not be a bidirectional train.

We have on pretty reliable authority that there are ample Horizon coaches and more coming

https://railfan.com/in-effort-to-resolve-equipment-shortages-amtrak-to-rebuild-63-cars/

With an estimated ridership of 170/train a two coach train would sell out many days in a month. It would also be financially challenged as it costs about the same to run two cars, but potential revenue is greatly reduced. Cutting cars depresses revenue, increases cost, and isn’t worth it for such a short run.

 

[jis]

We have on pretty reliable authority that there are ample Horizon coaches and more coming

https://railfan.com/in-effort-to-resolve-equipment-shortages-amtrak-to-rebuild-63-cars/

With an estimated ridership of 170/train a two coach train would sell out many days in a month. It would also be financially challenged as it costs about the same to run two cars, but potential revenue is greatly reduced. Cutting cars depresses revenue, increases cost, and isn’t worth it for such a short run.

Unless the plans have changed recently it is supposed to be a 4 Coach and 1 Club-Dinette train. There are enough Horizon cars available to start this service with what the original plan was, otherwise they would not start it at this time.

 

[Harmon Shay]

Thanks for the replies to my thoughts about Borealis consists. All very informative.

 

[WWW]

I'll be anxious to hear what you have to say. They used to allow Business Class passengers to visit the Metropolitan Lounge in Chicago, but removed that perk 1-2 years ago.

It'll be interesting if they bring that back, at least temporarily, to encourage more people to book business class. However, I could see some complaining from those that ride the Lincoln/Michigan trains.

MSP has a lounge also and I think there is a better chance they would give access to business class passengers but it doesn't offer nearly the same amenities as Chicago.

The MSP Lounge is very spartan to say the least.
3 or 4 sleeper passengers and it is at its limits.
A minute fraction of the space of the CUS Lounge
No restroom facility within the lounge.
Train announcements may not be heard.
With City events may make it difficult to use the Lounge.
On a plus side - nice historical pictures to view and not much else.
5 star rating - 1 half of 1 quarter of a star !

MSP needs to upgrade substantially the waiting area !!!

 

[west point]

Yeah a 485' train would fit nice and snug in the 500' or so siding. But it will not be able to handle a train with one more car unless it is lengthened. There is space to lengthen it.

In any case, I am sure Amtrak has a working plan about where they will store the train overnight. I was just stating what I had heard is the plan going in. Of course they could change as realities strike too.

That stub appears that at one time the track extended to end of station tracks and more tracks were in what is now the plaza. If whatever passenger traffic expansion is planned, then with the difficulty of the SPUD owner there will be need for some kind of mitigation to add back the removed tracks.

 

[OmahaRoad]

I want Borealis to do well and succeed, and will probably book regardless because the schedule is more conducive than riding the EB, especially when the EB often encounters delays. However, I was checking random days for MSP to CHI in February/March 2025. The EB was offering value or flex for $41 or $44..
Borealis was charging $95 or more for coach.

It'll be interesting if this drives more families to ride the EB due to cost.

I think that you might have accidentally seen this backwards, or else they haven't built out the fares in their system properly that far yet? Everything I've seen looking closer in time is $41 or $44 for the Borealis (which is the announced lowest possible coach fare) NOT for the EB, with the EB being far more expensive. The few business class seats on the Borealis will be in the $90s usually.