Silver Metor Delay

[MrEd]

A Pomona Park mother and her two sons died when an Amtrak passenger train smashed into their car in Putnam County Monday afternoon.

Melissa Johnson, 34, and her two sons, Brandon, 9, and Blake, 6, were pronounced dead at the scene, said Lt. Bill Leeper, a spokesman for the Florida Highway Patrol.

The accident occurred about 3:45 p.m. near Tompkins Road and Old Highway 17 in Lake Como south of Pomona Park. Leeper said the northbound Silver Meteor, carrying 214 passengers and a crew of 14, hit the Ford Taurus as it crossed the tracks.

..

she failed to observe the train and crossed onto the tracks, Leeper said.

“When you approach a track crossing and it doesn’t have flashing lights or railroad arms, you need to stop, look and listen,” Leeper said.

One of the car’s axles and engine could be seen separated from the twisted, crushed body. Several people possibly connected to the home Johnson came from were kept behind police tape by investigators.

The 10-car, two-engine train runs from Miami to New York and usually arrives in Jacksonville around 5:15 p.m. each day. The train was delayed for several hours

..

http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2010-06...its-car-putnman

 

[metrorail]

I feel bad for the kids. The woman should have been more cautious.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

Does "private crossing" mean it is part of, like, a driveway, and not a public road?

(BTW, I noticed that the sleepers are toward the front of the consist)

 

[Donctor]

Does "private crossing" mean it is part of, like, a driveway, and not a public road?
(BTW, I noticed that the sleepers are toward the front of the consist)

Sleepers went to the head out of NYP starting on 06/03.

 

[AlanB]

Does "private crossing" mean it is part of, like, a driveway, and not a public road?

Yes, that is usually the most common type of private crossing. But there are other types too. Basically it's any crossing not owned by a governmental body.

 

[pennyk]

One of the local tv reporters stated that the driver was familiar with the crossing and had traveled that road many times.

 

[George Harris]

This link gives you a better article and several pictures:

http://www.news4jax.com/news/23896238/detail.html

The road does look like a driveway to one or more houses. Visibility looks to have been very good. Warning signs were there. If thet person was truly local, she ahd to know that there were fast trains on the line. Maybe she was used to being able to sail across the track without happening to ever be there at the same time a train went through. There was an accident of this nature several years ago with a school bus in East Tennessee on a low volume public road. The line there was the CSX ex L&N Cincinatti to Atlanta line which carried a large volume of freight trains moving at up to 60 mph. The in bus camera proved that she did not stop.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

Maybe she was used to being able to sail across the track without happening to ever be there at the same time a train went through.

That was my first thought too. Possibly she got use to there never being a train, and simply stopped looking.

I also noticed that there was a "stop" sign at the crossing. I think that is not standard, but should have reinforced the need to stop and look.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

It is unfortunate that the people on this train had to suffer the delay caused by this person's careless actions. My heart goes out to the Conductor and Engineer of the train who had to experience this in even greater depth.

It is unfortunate that such people are careless enough to interfere with the lives of innocent people. It is for the best that this person won't be around to do it anymore.

 

[SunsetLimited01]

There is a reason why Florida has some of the worst drivers in the nation. It doesn't surprise me one bit though. I feel bad for the passengers of the train and the crew.

http://www.news-press.com/article/20100609...e-whole-country

 

[George Harris]

There is a reason why Florida has some of the worst drivers in the nation. It doesn't surprise me one bit though. I feel bad for the passengers of the train and the crew.
http://www.news-press.com/article/20100609...e-whole-country

The fact that the state is cluttered up with transplanted Yankees from the northeast does not help.

 

[jis]

This morning I was observing people coming out of driveways and side roads onto main roads at various places on the way to work. I was dismayed to see that almost everyone failed to stop short of the main road whether coming out of a driveway or at a stop sign on the side road. They stuck the nose of the car out on the road to a greater or lesser extent, in many cases causing traffic on the road to have to swerve to avoid a collision. In an extreme case a lady came with her car tumbling out of a parking lot blocking an entire lane of traffic, sitting there with an exasperated look on her face while the second lane continued running blocking her in place, and then finally reversing and pulling out of the road allowing the traffic to clear!

Now if this is general behavior, as it would appear to be, then imagine what happens when people come out of their driveway or side road and stick their nose into the path of something that cannot swerve. Something to think about. Maybe people have gotten habituated to a behavior that is prone to get themselves killed. Why, I have no clue.

 

[Guest]

Expecting drivers to improve and to use common sense is like asking the sun not to shine! Most Southern states lead the world in crossing accidents and deaths, mostly due to the n umerous rural,unmarked crossings. Especially idiotic are the so called professional truck drivers that pull in front of or race trains. As jis pointed out in the previous post lots of so called drivers take chances in routine traffic with other cars, the brain dead that tempt trains to leave the tracks and chase them down are even lower on the evolution scale, slightly above tea partiers,militia paranoids and people who go on vacation to Florida,Alabma,Louisiana,Texas and Arizona in the summertime!

 

[Dennis Auth]

Thank goodness some of you posting above do not work for the NTSB as in addition to making very cruel comments, you obviously have not the slightest data set about this tragic accident to make any comment except a sympathetic one. I owned this private driveway crossing for 15 years from 1977 to 1992 and loved the reality that about eight trains per day crossed our property on an easemt that went back 121 years. This driveway served two homes and was classifified as a private crossing that provided public access every day to vendors, for friends and family, and for anyone who turned in our driveway. What makes this accident deserving of a specific NTSB investigation is the fact that the distance that remains after a train first rounds the sharp curve to the south is inadequate for a high speed passenger train. When my wife and I bought Bonnie View on the Lake in March 1977, I took a stop watch out beyond the monumental white columns in the front of our fenced yard and clocked the time it took for a northbound CSX passenger train to reach the center of our private crossing. It only took three seconds! The track to the north is stright-away for miles, and suppose Mrs. Johnson loaded her two young sons into her car and drove out the driveway and STOPPED at the crossing in obeyance of the signage. She looked to the south first and saw no train, then she looked to the north and saw no train coming from that direction, then she started across the single track and her visual siting time ran out. Remember she had two youngsters in the car with her and they may have distracted her in some manner. She could have sneezed before she started across the unprotected crossing. I have heard no testimony yet whether the engineer sounded the horn, so I cannot comment on that important warning signal. What concerns me most is the posted speed limit for the Silver Meteor on this stretch of track is 75 mph and my judgment says that 3-4 seconds is totally insuffient amount of time before a driver is even able to first see that a train is coming. Don't you agree? That is 3-4 seconds to properly respond or you die!

 

[MikefromCrete]

IF it's that dangerous, there shouldn't be a crossing there.

 

[Guest]

Totally agree! The locals,including the guy who says he owned this unsafe crossing must have been sleeping all those years! A crossing thats that dangerous has no business exisiting! :excl:

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

When my wife and I bought Bonnie View on the Lake in March 1977, I took a stop watch out beyond the monumental white columns in the front of our fenced yard and clocked the time it took for a northbound CSX passenger train to reach the center of our private crossing. It only took three seconds!

So, you knew for a fact, this private crossing of yours, was too dangerous to use.

What concerns me most is the posted speed limit for the Silver Meteor on this stretch of track is 75 mph and my judgment says that 3-4 seconds is totally insufficient amount of time before a driver is even able to first see that a train is coming. Don't you agree? That is 3-4 seconds to properly respond or you die!

Again, where was your judgment, in terms of saying this crossing of yours was way too dangerous to use, and you should simply stop using it?

IMHO, it was totally your call. And all consequences, fall onto just you. You had all the options and all the data, including the option to not buy the house back in 1977 because you didn't want to assume the responsibly of the private crossing.

When you re-sold the private crossing in 1992, did you warn the potential buyers that you knew for a fact, that it was too dangerous to use? Or did you downplay that fact, not wanting to kill the deal?

 

[VentureForth]

It is unfortunate that the people on this train had to suffer the delay caused by this person's careless actions. My heart goes out to the Conductor and Engineer of the train who had to experience this in even greater depth.

It is unfortunate that such people are careless enough to interfere with the lives of innocent people. It is for the best that this person won't be around to do it anymore.

GML - I really enjoy your postings, but these Darwin Award-esque comments with every tragedy are getting to be irritating. I consider myself to be a good driver but I make mistakes. I'm thankful to God that none have caused injury to me or anyone else. Just yesterday, I instinctively turned left when my light turned green. Every other intersection has a left green arrow except this one. I about slammed into on coming van.

Everyone is capable of accidents. That's why they're not called "on purposes". Though you are technically correct in saying that this woman and her children won't ever do this again, it's presumptuous to assume that no one will ever be inconvenienced by anyone ever again because we have lost these three human beings.

 

[George Harris]

Sounds like Mr. Auth is positioning things for a lawsuit against the railroad. It might be better if he kept quiet since, according to what he says, if he did not warn the buyer, he knowingly exposed people to a hazardous situation. He better hope hie did it in writing. I think it was Mark Twain that said verbal contracts are not worth the paper they are written on.

Yes, mistakes can kill you. We simply do not know exactly what happened here.

As to his "3 seconds" 3*75*44/30 = 330 feet. That really does not compute unless the trackside brush is grown to where it is all but touching the train and the end of the curve is right at the crossing. If this goes to court, then both sides would want the sight distance measured, unless, that is one knows for sure that would cost them their case.

 

[VentureForth]

By the looks of things based on Google Maps, it appears that there are only two private grade crossings in the area. They are both between Tomkins Rd and Highland Ave. By inference of the article and the comments by our guest, I'm assuming that they mean the unprotected crossing closest to Tomkins Rd. The track stop bending at Highland Ave. It's a straight shot from there to Tomkins. The first grade crossing is at 345 yards (1035 feet) from Highland Ave. The 2nd crossing (presumed accident site) is 609 yards (1827 feet) from Highland Ave. Using George's formula, that would translate to 9.5 seconds from Highland the first crossing and 16.6 seconds to the presumed site of the collision - AFTER coming around the bend. Don't forget that this would be the 3rd grade crossing horn sounding in those 16 seconds.

Though I wouldn't classify these crossings to be "safe", there seems to be enough time and warning to get across the tracks if you STOP, LOOK and LISTEN. It does make one wonder, though, why they didn't just extend Tomkins Rd parallel to the tracks towards the South to eliminate that crossing. Sounds like that's a joint CSX/Land Owner/County issue to me.

 

[Ryan]

Here's a link to the area in google maps:

http://goo.gl/maps/Ccir

Even if the crossing in question is the closer of the two, 10 seconds of warning and the engineer blowing for the Highland Ave crossing make the crossing out to be far less dangerous than Mr. Auth makes it out to be.

 

[Dennis Auth]

To from Crete: The private crossing was installed by the Seaboard Coastline RR back in 1889 after Mr. Gates of Cleveland, Ohio build his summer home on some 40 acres lying between the Lake Como chain of lakes west of the existing tracks of the Palatka and Indian River RR that was built in 1881. The private crossbuck type crossing has therefore been operational as a driveway since 1889, some 121 years. This RR crossing is shared by two homes who have no other access to Old Highway 17, the Black Bear Trail, because of the lakes in the Lake Como Chain.

What needs to happen here is to have at least electric flashers installed at this crossing with the shunt for the circuit set well south of the curve so public and private users of this RR crossing cam always be protected by the normal visual signal that a train that is now out of sight is closing on your vehicle at, in this case, potentially, some 75 mph. That would be an effective solution for all of the thousands of unprotected crossings in the USA and would save thousands of men, women and children from a very tragic and violent death. Dennis Auth

 

[Ispolkom]

What needs to happen here is to have at least electric flashers installed at this crossing with the shunt for the circuit set well south of the curve so public and private users of this RR crossing cam always be protected by the normal visual signal that a train that is now out of sight is closing on your vehicle at, in this case, potentially, some 75 mph. That would be an effective solution for all of the thousands of unprotected crossings in the USA and would save thousands of men, women and children from a very tragic and violent death. Dennis Auth

If it's a private crossing, surely the landowner should pay for installation and maintenance. The railroad was there first, after all, and this dangerous crossing was installed by the landowner.

 

[Dennis Auth]

Even if the crossing in question is the closer of the two, 10 seconds of warning and the engineer blowing for the Highland Ave crossing make the crossing out to be far less dangerous than Mr. Auth makes it out to be.

Engineer: How did you derive your use of the ten second lead time to the middle of the private driveway crossing? The day I timed it back in 1977, from first sight of the diesel engine to the crossing was only three seconds. At this point, we have no testimony that the CSX engineer blew his horn for the Highland Avenue crossing, so it is not evidentiary at this time in this case. Dennis Auth

 

[VentureForth]

To from Crete: The private crossing was installed by the Seaboard Coastline RR back in 1889 after Mr. Gates of Cleveland, Ohio build his summer home on some 40 acres lying between the Lake Como chain of lakes west of the existing tracks of the Palatka and Indian River RR that was built in 1881. The private crossbuck type crossing has therefore been operational as a driveway since 1889, some 121 years. This RR crossing is shared by two homes who have no other access to Old Highway 17, the Black Bear Trail, because of the lakes in the Lake Como Chain.

What needs to happen here is to have at least electric flashers installed at this crossing with the shunt for the circuit set well south of the curve so public and private users of this RR crossing cam always be protected by the normal visual signal that a train that is now out of sight is closing on your vehicle at, in this case, potentially, some 75 mph. That would be an effective solution for all of the thousands of unprotected crossings in the USA and would save thousands of men, women and children from a very tragic and violent death. Dennis Auth

You're right - protected grade crossings with gates lights and bells and lane protection barriers are certainly safer - but who is willing to pay for all those new upgraded crossings? Surely the Railroad shouldn't pay. And does the private landowner have the millions required to not only install but to service them as well? Again, looking at the aerial view of the area, looks like a driveway could be built into Tomkins Rd using the existing protected crossing. I'm sure that a right of way could be built there.

Another solution - one which would probably never ever happen - is to connect a flashing light to the existing grade crossings at Tomkins and Highland so that whenever either of those those two gates are triggered, a light would flash at the driveway. It's an impossibly simple circuit, but that's even worse if you grow to depend on it and it fails.